Fordham (sticker) vs. Seton Hall ($35k/yr) for biglaw Forum

[Denny_Crane2k11]

Hey, long time lurker here. As you can see above, my choices are between paying sticker at Fordham (which, with COL, is probably about 70k/yr) or pay $10k tuition at SHU (prob about 30k/yr with COL)

I'd save approximately $120k over 3 years at SHU (assuming no increased scholly or transfer), but if my interests are biglaw (not necessarily in NY, but both schools obviously lend themselves to biglaw NY market), what's a better option?

By pure numbers, Fordham is obviously a better choice--it's ranked higher, places a larger percentage of grads (26% in the latest stats) in the NLJ250 than Seton Hall (13%), and has much better prestige in NY in general compared to SHU (a NJ school), but would it be a better choice? SHU (somewhat surprisingly to some people) was ranked 33rd in the latest "top 50 go-to law schools" in terms of the % of its graduates going to NLJ250 firms, an objective measure that (IMHO) has more weight than the USNWR stuff.

I'd like to minimize debt as much as possible, but if my job prospects are going to be as good/better being in the top 25% at Fordham versus the top 5-10% at SHU, does it make sense to take on an extra $120k debt?

Just looking for a lively discussion to help. Thanks in advance.

[reasonable_man]

Hey, long time lurker here. As you can see above, my choices are between paying sticker at Fordham (which, with COL, is probably about 70k/yr) or pay $10k tuition at SHU (prob about 30k/yr with COL)

I'd save approximately $120k over 3 years at SHU (assuming no increased scholly or transfer), but if my interests are biglaw (not necessarily in NY, but both schools obviously lend themselves to biglaw NY market), what's a better option?

By pure numbers, Fordham is obviously a better choice--it's ranked higher, places a larger percentage of grads (26% in the latest stats) in the NLJ250 than Seton Hall (13%), and has much better prestige in NY in general compared to SHU (a NJ school), but would it be a better choice?

I'd like to minimize debt as much as possible, but if my job prospects are going to be as good/better being in the top 25% at Fordham versus the top 5-10% at SHU, does it make sense to take on an extra $120k debt?

Just looking for a lively discussion to help. Thanks for all the help.

If by “both schools obviously lend themselves to biglaw NY market” you mean that Fordham will give you a passing shot at biglaw if you finish in the top 20% of the class and Seton Hall will afford you a shot at biglaw if you are in the top 1% of your class and you have top-notch cock sucking skills, then your statement is 100% correct.

Fordham only affords a small number of its grads a true shot at biglaw (way better than the other NYC non-elite schools), but still not a great risk if you want biglaw. Seton Hall places practically none of its grads in biglaw. Your best options out of Seton hall are a one year clerkship for a traffic judge in Newark.

If you want a real shot at biglaw, go to a much better school than Fordham or Seton. If you want to be a lawyer and earn between 45 and 65k in a modest practice area to start and hopefully work your way up over 100k after a 4 or 5 years, Go to Seton and save yourself the money. If you think you are smarter than 80% of the kids going to Fordham in your year, then go there, get big law and profit. Otherwise, it’s a huge crapshoot.

Lastly, Seton usually has some ugly stipulations attached to its large scholarships. I’d check into that. You really cannot be certain that you will be in the top third of your class after 1L, no matter how smart the LSAT and your parents tell claim you are.

[bk1]

Minimizing debt and aiming for biglaw are mutually exclusive in the range of schools you are looking at. You can't have it both ways.

[AntipodeanPhil]

IMHO, only you can make this decision, because only you know how debt and risk-adverse you are and how happy you would be with the next best option (i.e., not BigLaw).

[Denny_Crane2k11]

You've probably already seen this, but according to this study:

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1

The study claims that, for 2010 graduates, Fordham placed about 25% in BigLaw; Seton Hall placed about 12%.

IMHO, only you can make this decision, because only you know how debt and risk-adverse you are and how happy you would be with the next best option (i.e., not BigLaw).

I refer to these statistics in my OP, but thank you for sharing again. If SHU is placing 12-13% of its graduating class in NLJ250 firms but (apparently) has absolutely no/little pull in the NY market, then should one assume that all of the biglaw jobs these prospects are getting come from NJ? I don't know about that.

Minimizing debt and aiming for biglaw are mutually exclusive in the range of schools you are looking at. You can't have it both ways.

I understand that. Everyone would like to minimize costs, but I'm willing to take on 100k more debt if the options are Fordham are *that* much better than SHU, but if 25% are NLJ250 at Fordham and 13% are at SHU, is that really THAT significant a difference?

[bk1]

I understand that. Everyone would like to minimize costs, but I'm willing to take on 100k more debt if the options are Fordham are *that* much better than SHU, but if 25% are NLJ250 at Fordham and 13% are at SHU, is that really THAT significant a difference?

I'd say that 10-15% is a significant difference. However, the reason I said it is that even at Fordham, you are still far more likely to miss out on biglaw than to actually get it. So considering at Fordham you have a 75% chance of ending up with a 50k/year job, do you really think the extra 100k is worth it?

[FiveSermon]

Fordham doubles your chances. Of course it's a significant difference. Only question is whether it's worth the extra costs.

[Denny_Crane2k11]

I understand that. Everyone would like to minimize costs, but I'm willing to take on 100k more debt if the options are Fordham are *that* much better than SHU, but if 25% are NLJ250 at Fordham and 13% are at SHU, is that really THAT significant a difference?

I'd say that 10-15% is a significant difference. However, the reason I said it is that even at Fordham, you are still far more likely to miss out on biglaw than to actually get it. So considering at Fordham you have a 75% chance of ending up with a 50k/year job, do you really think the extra 100k is worth it?

you make it sound as if there are two extremes--either you're top 25% and you get biglaw or you're below that and you make 50k/yr, but that isn't accurate.

In Fordham's latest statistics (class of 2010), nearly 71% of their graduates worked in firms of 100+ (vs 30% of SHU grads who are in firms with 100+), so I'm assuming that those people are making more than 50k. I guess the other thing I'm wondering, however, is that if you go to, say, Fordham and you don't get a biglaw job (regardless of your rank), what are your typical options? Mid-size firm in NY? I'd think that that'd be a + for Fordham over SHU, whose non-NLJ250 grads probably work in small/mid-firms in NJ, but i'm not sure

[bk1]

you make it sound as if there are two extremes--either you're top 25% and you get biglaw or you're below that and you make 50k/yr, but that isn't accurate.

In Fordham's latest statistics (class of 2010), nearly 71% of their graduates worked in firms of 100+, so I'm assuming that those people are making more than 50k. I guess the other thing I'm wondering, however, is that if you go to, say, Fordham and you don't get a biglaw job (regardless of your rank), what are your typical options? Mid-size firm in NY? I'd think that that'd be a + for Fordham over SHU, whose non-NLJ250 grads probably work in small/mid-firms in NJ, but i'm not sure

There really are two extremes, notice:



Roughly 50% of starting salaries fall between 30k and 60k. While yes, there are some in the middle, these are still rare and often as tough as biglaw to get.

Fordham's statistics only take into account those who actually respond to the survey. So it is 71% of people who actually gave data regarding firm size of the people who actually responded to the survey at all. And this only accounts for people who go into private practice.

This should be helpful (http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 1&t=150681). Notice that about 40% of Fordham's class of 2009 doesn't even report salary information and things are even worse now. So really, don't take what schools say at face value.

[gothamm]

Fordham doubles your chances. Of course it's a significant difference. Only question is whether it's worth the extra costs.

Brutal math.

[Grizz]

With those career goals, retake or don't go.

[FiveSermon]

Fordham doubles your chances. Of course it's a significant difference. Only question is whether it's worth the extra costs.

Brutal math.

Rough estimate. Lets not get clever here.

[gothamm]

Not trying to be clever at all. Nor an a-hole. Attending Fordham may or may not double one's chances, but assuming that it will is a logical fallacy

[Veyron]

Fordham places top 20% in biglaw now? Maybe in 2007.

[reasonable_man]

Fordham places top 20% in biglaw now? Maybe in 2007.

More like 2006....

[apl6783]

Hey, long time lurker here. As you can see above, my choices are between paying sticker at Fordham (which, with COL, is probably about 70k/yr) or pay $10k tuition at SHU (prob about 30k/yr with COL)

I'd save approximately $120k over 3 years at SHU (assuming no increased scholly or transfer), but if my interests are biglaw (not necessarily in NY, but both schools obviously lend themselves to biglaw NY market), what's a better option?

By pure numbers, Fordham is obviously a better choice--it's ranked higher, places a larger percentage of grads (26% in the latest stats) in the NLJ250 than Seton Hall (13%), and has much better prestige in NY in general compared to SHU (a NJ school), but would it be a better choice? SHU (somewhat surprisingly to some people) was ranked 33rd in the latest "top 50 go-to law schools" in terms of the % of its graduates going to NLJ250 firms, an objective measure that (IMHO) has more weight than the USNWR stuff.

I'd like to minimize debt as much as possible, but if my job prospects are going to be as good/better being in the top 25% at Fordham versus the top 5-10% at SHU, does it make sense to take on an extra $120k debt?

Just looking for a lively discussion to help. Thanks in advance.

Why are you interested in biglaw? $120,000 of debt is ASTRONOMICAL despite what people on this forum might tell you. I don't believe that you fully understand the weight of a six figure debt.

Please consider this:

Most peoples interests and plans for the future change in law school. Many people find that the area of law that they were previously interested in is not for them after doing an internship 1L summer. Many people don't even make it that far. They might decide that corporate transactional law isn't for them after taking relevant classes and hating them.

If you go to Fordham, you will be locked into trying for a biglaw job. With $120,000 of debt (again, an astronomical level of debt) your only choices other than biglaw are public interest and JAG positions that have loan repayment programs. All of these positions are extremely competitive. You might not get them, in whch case you will be in serious trouble. It takes a while to pay off a six figure debt making biglaw salary in NYC. You would never be able to pay off a six figure debt making $60k a year in NYC. Do you realize how high the cost of living in NYC is? It is absolutely outrageous. $160k isn't a lot of money when you account for COL.


More importantly, biglaw has a really high turnover rate for a reason. The jobs suck. They are miserable. Most people wouldn't stay if they didn't have loans. These people are miserable, and they're the lucky ones who got these high salaried jobs.

If you think, "oh, I'll be one of the ones who enjoy that work and everything will work out okay," think again. If you even land one, you'll probably hate it. Do the math. Think about what % of Fordham grads even land biglaw, then think about what % of biglaw lawyers hate their jobs. The percentages are stacked heavily against you.

[flexityflex86]

Hey, long time lurker here. As you can see above, my choices are between paying sticker at Fordham (which, with COL, is probably about 70k/yr) or pay $10k tuition at SHU (prob about 30k/yr with COL)

I'd save approximately $120k over 3 years at SHU (assuming no increased scholly or transfer), but if my interests are biglaw (not necessarily in NY, but both schools obviously lend themselves to biglaw NY market), what's a better option?

By pure numbers, Fordham is obviously a better choice--it's ranked higher, places a larger percentage of grads (26% in the latest stats) in the NLJ250 than Seton Hall (13%), and has much better prestige in NY in general compared to SHU (a NJ school), but would it be a better choice? SHU (somewhat surprisingly to some people) was ranked 33rd in the latest "top 50 go-to law schools" in terms of the % of its graduates going to NLJ250 firms, an objective measure that (IMHO) has more weight than the USNWR stuff.

I'd like to minimize debt as much as possible, but if my job prospects are going to be as good/better being in the top 25% at Fordham versus the top 5-10% at SHU, does it make sense to take on an extra $120k debt?

Just looking for a lively discussion to help. Thanks in advance.

Why are you interested in biglaw? $120,000 of debt is ASTRONOMICAL despite what people on this forum might tell you. I don't believe that you fully understand the weight of a six figure debt.

Please consider this:

Most peoples interests and plans for the future change in law school. Many people find that the area of law that they were previously interested in is not for them after doing an internship 1L summer. Many people don't even make it that far. They might decide that corporate transactional law isn't for them after taking relevant classes and hating them.

If you go to Fordham, you will be locked into trying for a biglaw job. With $120,000 of debt (again, an astronomical level of debt) your only choices other than biglaw are public interest and JAG positions that have loan repayment programs. All of these positions are extremely competitive. You might not get them, in whch case you will be in serious trouble. It takes a while to pay off a six figure debt making biglaw salary in NYC. You would never be able to pay off a six figure debt making $60k a year in NYC. Do you realize how high the cost of living in NYC is? It is absolutely outrageous. $160k isn't a lot of money when you account for COL.


More importantly, biglaw has a really high turnover rate for a reason. The jobs suck. They are miserable. Most people wouldn't stay if they didn't have loans. These people are miserable, and they're the lucky ones who got these high salaried jobs.

If you think, "oh, I'll be one of the ones who enjoy that work and everything will work out okay," think again. If you even land one, you'll probably hate it. Do the math. Think about what % of Fordham grads even land biglaw, then think about what % of biglaw lawyers hate their jobs. The percentages are stacked heavily against you.

There is some truth here, but you are a bit too cynical, particularly saying that 160k is not a lot of money when you live in NYC.

I live in NYC, and a nice part of Manhattan, and I make no where near 160k, but I live a good life. If you have your own room but roommates or split a place with your friends, you need about 25k a year after taxes to live well. If you live on your own in a great studio in a great part of town you need about 45k after taxes to live a great life.

[apl6783]

There is some truth here, but you are a bit too cynical, particularly saying that 160k is not a lot of money when you live in NYC.

I live in NYC, and a nice part of Manhattan, and I make no where near 160k, but I live a good life. If you have your own room but roommates or split a place with your friends, you need about 25k a year after taxes to live well. If you live on your own in a great studio in a great part of town you need about 45k after taxes to live a great life.

If you play with cost of living salary adjusters you'll find that your cost of living will inflate faster than your salary if you move from a smaller city or town to NYC. There is no getting around the fact that NYC has a very high effective tax rate and a very high cost of living, but often does not offer a comparably high salary for the same job.

Plus, "living well" can mean different things.
This will sound cynical, but I honestly don't mean it to be:

If you're un-married, don't mind living with roomates after law school, don't want to build any kind of substantial savings, and don't mind having negative net worth for 15 years, then you yes you can live well in NYC on $25,000 after taxes. Again, that sounds cynical, but a lot of people live this way, and that's okay. There is nothing wrong with it - especially if you've recently entered the work force and aren't married.

If you wanted to buy a vacation home, eat out a lot, buy a boat, buy an RV, buy farm property somewhere, take nice vacations, buy a motorcycle, or have kids, I don't think you could if you only took in $25,000 after taxes living in NYC.

(and I mean BUY things, not taking out 30 year mortgages and high interest leases. I mean actually owning property that cannot be repossessed because you missed a few payments)