Competition in the T14, specifically Penn Forum

[whymeohgodno]

Was the TLS search function broken? I can't speak for other schools besides mine but it took me about 15 minutes of TLSing to get an idea for where I was. I am also just referencing figuring out which 1/4 of the class your in.[/quote]

Reference the thread title dooder, I go to Penn, a school that doesn't provide medians, a gpa, means, modes, or cutoffs for any percentile. In the days after my grades were released, various people made estimates of my class rank 30% points apart.[/quote]

Where did you end up.

On the curve that is.[/quote]

Where everyone else ended up.[/quote]

Oh median.

[fatduck]

he was doing well until his K's prof included a curveball question on how to properly quote a post on TLS

[le_taon]

I am wondering how UChi students feel about competition. Anyone care to weigh in?

Just wanted to address this and some above comments.

In terms of 1L year, my experience, at least, was that there was an exceptionally strong culture of not disclosing grades, period. There's no reason why you should or would know anyone else's grades, unless you asked, and I frankly had no clue how people did during 1L. So while everyone knows that there are only so many A's to go around, I never saw that turn into non-collaborative behavior. I think there's a pretty nice ethos of "we're all in this together," which is kind of necessary to get through Spring Quarter in particular. And it's fostered by the fact that you generally know your classmates pretty well.

The summer after 1L, however, between OCI, Law Review, and a few other things, it does become more apparent who is at the top of the class, and who is not. I think this does lead to some (in my mind, entirely undesirable and unnecessary) strain in friendships between people in the class, for a variety of reasons. But I think that's likely to happen at any school, frankly, and I don't think we're the exception in that. That said, I've yet to see this manifest in so strong a resentment or conflict that people won't still help each other out or anything like that.

I think the only time I've seen people hesitate to share notes with other people is when they've felt like they're being put upon to help someone who doesn't do a lot of work. With classes as small as ours, everyone knows who never shows up to class or who always shows up late (these people are very few but quite prominent), and I think some people are understandably reticent to help them out.

In terms of OCI and grading, I will say that one advantage of the UChicago grading system is that some people just don't understand it and never will. They take a look at your transcript, say, "huh -- I became a lawyer so I wouldn't have to do math", and then focus on the classes you took or change the topic of discussion. Those who do understand it, however, have an absurd number of ways to distinguish you from your classmates. Some say this is a positive, while others say it's a negative. I don't want to have that debate here, but I will say that I don't think it ends up playing out in the classroom.

[Veyron]

I am wondering how UChi students feel about competition. Anyone care to weigh in?

Just wanted to address this and some above comments.

In terms of 1L year, my experience, at least, was that there was an exceptionally strong culture of not disclosing grades, period. There's no reason why you should or would know anyone else's grades, unless you asked, and I frankly had no clue how people did during 1L. So while everyone knows that there are only so many A's to go around, I never saw that turn into non-collaborative behavior. I think there's a pretty nice ethos of "we're all in this together," which is kind of necessary to get through Spring Quarter in particular. And it's fostered by the fact that you generally know your classmates pretty well.

The summer after 1L, however, between OCI, Law Review, and a few other things, it does become more apparent who is at the top of the class, and who is not. I think this does lead to some (in my mind, entirely undesirable and unnecessary) strain in friendships between people in the class, for a variety of reasons. But I think that's likely to happen at any school, frankly, and I don't think we're the exception in that. That said, I've yet to see this manifest in so strong a resentment or conflict that people won't still help each other out or anything like that.

I think the only time I've seen people hesitate to share notes with other people is when they've felt like they're being put upon to help someone who doesn't do a lot of work. With classes as small as ours, everyone knows who never shows up to class or who always shows up late (these people are very few but quite prominent), and I think some people are understandably reticent to help them out.

In terms of OCI and grading, I will say that one advantage of the UChicago grading system is that some people just don't understand it and never will. They take a look at your transcript, say, "huh -- I became a lawyer so I wouldn't have to do math", and then focus on the classes you took or change the topic of discussion. Those who do understand it, however, have an absurd number of ways to distinguish you from your classmates. Some say this is a positive, while others say it's a negative. I don't want to have that debate here, but I will say that I don't think it ends up playing out in the classroom.

^ I read the first part and was like WTF, that doesn't sound like Penn AT ALL? Than I realized that the kid goes to Chicago, lol.

Suffice it to say that you would be hard pressed to find two schools with more different cultures. It is literally inconceivable here that grades would ever create any sort of strain or that the slightest hesitation would ever be shown in the sharing of notes, no matter how "lazy" one might be (and no 1L is truly lazy). I've overslept, explained this to a classmate, and had notes within an hour. Likewise, I had a friend that just didn't feel like showing up to class for a couple of days. I dug through my hardrive for an hour to find the notes from one of the days (because I has saved it to the wrong location) so I could send it to him. There is a very strong sense that some things are just not done at Penn and that begrudging classmates assistance is one of those things. The idea here is that we are all going to be part of each others professional network for a long while, and that is going to matter quite a bit more than any marginal advantage that we could gain from being a douche in the long run.

Also, it is very difficult to distinguish people on our curve beyond top 10% top 1/3 medianish bottom 1/3.

[le_taon]

It is literally inconceivable here that grades would ever create any sort of strain or that the slightest hesitation would ever be shown in the sharing of notes, no matter how "lazy" one might be (and no 1L is truly lazy). I've overslept, explained this to a classmate, and had notes within an hour. Likewise, I had a friend that just didn't feel like showing up to class for a couple of days. I dug through my hardrive for an hour to find the notes from one of the days (because I has saved it to the wrong location) so I could send it to him. There is a very strong sense that some things are just not done at Penn and that begrudging classmates assistance is one of those things. The idea here is that we are all going to be part of each others professional network for a long while, and that is going to matter quite a bit more than any marginal advantage that we could gain from being a douche in the long run.

I think you've entirely warped what I've said. I for one do occasionally oversleep or miss classes, and I've never had anyone begrudge me assistance. That's not what I'm talking about.

This isn't just people who miss a few days or show up late once in a while. I'm talking about people who consistently never show up to class, or who, literally, are 20+ minutes late to 90% of classes. I think you'd resent it, too, if that person, who's renowned for doing this in multiple classes, came up to you the week before exams and asked for your notes or outlines. I think that goes beyond "being a douche."

[Veyron]

It is literally inconceivable here that grades would ever create any sort of strain or that the slightest hesitation would ever be shown in the sharing of notes, no matter how "lazy" one might be (and no 1L is truly lazy). I've overslept, explained this to a classmate, and had notes within an hour. Likewise, I had a friend that just didn't feel like showing up to class for a couple of days. I dug through my hardrive for an hour to find the notes from one of the days (because I has saved it to the wrong location) so I could send it to him. There is a very strong sense that some things are just not done at Penn and that begrudging classmates assistance is one of those things. The idea here is that we are all going to be part of each others professional network for a long while, and that is going to matter quite a bit more than any marginal advantage that we could gain from being a douche in the long run.

I think you've entirely warped what I've said. I for one do occasionally oversleep or miss classes, and I've never had anyone begrudge me assistance. That's not what I'm talking about.

This isn't just people who miss a few days or show up late once in a while. I'm talking about people who consistently never show up to class, or who, literally, are 20+ minutes late to 90% of classes. I think you'd resent it, too, if that person, who's renowned for doing this in multiple classes, came up to you the week before exams and asked for your notes or outlines. I think that goes beyond "being a douche."

Well no one here is quite that bad. But I won't resent giving even the wost offenders my notes (and I have). What, you think your notes or outline is so super awesome that its going to make the difference for another student? What a silly idea. Someone either has the intelligence and work ethic (which is often demonstrated at home, not at school) to do well in a class or they don't. Often such "slackers" are actually very smart and you may very well need their help one day.

And again, I think this points to a fundamental difference in the schools. Helping classmates in any way possible is a point of pride at Penn. If someone were ever to withhold notes for any reason, or even be unenthusiastic about giving assistance, I think that everyone in the section would think much more poorly of that person. However, I've never seen or heard of that happening, that just isn't the type of student that we tend to attract.

[whymeohgodno]

It is literally inconceivable here that grades would ever create any sort of strain or that the slightest hesitation would ever be shown in the sharing of notes, no matter how "lazy" one might be (and no 1L is truly lazy). I've overslept, explained this to a classmate, and had notes within an hour. Likewise, I had a friend that just didn't feel like showing up to class for a couple of days. I dug through my hardrive for an hour to find the notes from one of the days (because I has saved it to the wrong location) so I could send it to him. There is a very strong sense that some things are just not done at Penn and that begrudging classmates assistance is one of those things. The idea here is that we are all going to be part of each others professional network for a long while, and that is going to matter quite a bit more than any marginal advantage that we could gain from being a douche in the long run.

I think you've entirely warped what I've said. I for one do occasionally oversleep or miss classes, and I've never had anyone begrudge me assistance. That's not what I'm talking about.

This isn't just people who miss a few days or show up late once in a while. I'm talking about people who consistently never show up to class, or who, literally, are 20+ minutes late to 90% of classes. I think you'd resent it, too, if that person, who's renowned for doing this in multiple classes, came up to you the week before exams and asked for your notes or outlines. I think that goes beyond "being a douche."

Well no one here is quite that bad. But I won't resent giving even the wost offenders my notes (and I have). What, you think your notes or outline is so super awesome that its going to make the difference for another student? What a silly idea. Someone either has the intelligence and work ethic (which is often demonstrated at home, not at school) to do well in a class or they don't. Often such "slackers" are actually very smart and you may very well need their help one day.

And again, I think this points to a fundamental difference in the schools. Helping classmates in any way possible is a point of pride at Penn. If someone were ever to withhold notes for any reason, or even be unenthusiastic about giving assistance, I think that everyone in the section would think much more poorly of that person. However, I've never seen or heard of that happening, that just isn't the type of student that we tend to attract.

I've always though of Penn as a douchy school so this blows my mind.

[fatduck]

I've always though of Penn as a douchy school so this blows my mind.

bragging about being non-douchy is a bit douchy, though.

[whymeohgodno]

I've always though of Penn as a douchy school so this blows my mind.

bragging about being non-douchy is a bit douchy, though.

You're right. It all makes sense again.

[Veyron]

I've always though of Penn as a douchy school so this blows my mind.

bragging about being non-douchy is a bit douchy, though.

You're right. It all makes sense again.

Hold on buddy, I didn't say we weren't douchy, I said we weren't competitive. I mean, come on, I go here after all.

[ahduth]

I've always though of Penn as a douchy school so this blows my mind.

bragging about being non-douchy is a bit douchy, though.

You're right. It all makes sense again.

Hold on buddy, I didn't say we weren't douchy, I said we weren't competitive. I mean, come on, I go here after all.

He was comparing it to Chicago, also, which gives me this impression of being the Empire of the Uptight. Although I might be confusing Chicago with Harvard in that respect.