Penn vs. CCN Forum

[tipler4213]

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[tipler4213]

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[09042014]

Little topic for conversation:

In your opinions, what separates UPenn from CCN? Without checking back over the most recent stats, I feel that Penn places as well or better for BigLaw and Federal clerkships.

1) Is it self-selection? I.e., Are Penn students getting worse BigLaw jobs and/or clerkships than NYU, etc? Kind of like how Harvard/Yale rank very low for BigLaw placement?
2) LSAT median? I know Penn's median is a couple of points lower.
3) Philly isn't a big market? I doubt this one because of the proximity to NYC and DC.
4) Is there something I am not considering?
5) Or is it relatively arbitrary and Penn deserves to be consider alongside the T-6?

Pretty odd that you base this on a feeling, don't check data, then make a bunch of reasons to explain your feeling.

CCN > Penn but it's not a huge difference.

[tipler4213]

--LinkRemoved--

[ahduth]

CCN > Penn but it's not a huge difference.

Meh, I'll disagree just to start a fight.

I want to do transactional work.

Columbia and NYU are in New York. If you're looking to do corporate transaction work, you should be going to one of these schools.

Chicago has a law and economics focus that will give you insight into how corporate transactions actually work.

Penn is... Ivy League?

[Rand M.]

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/8343/clerkshipsp.png

Cornell too then.

[tipler4213]

a

[tipler4213]

I'm getting pissed. I can't find the link where people combined the BigLaw and Clerkship data. Does anyone have it tagged?

[09042014]

CCN > Penn but it's not a huge difference.

Meh, I'll disagree just to start a fight.

I want to do transactional work.

Columbia and NYU are in New York. If you're looking to do corporate transaction work, you should be going to one of these schools.

Chicago has a law and economics focus that will give you insight into how corporate transactions actually work.

Penn is... Ivy League?

I don't think recruiters actually care about UChi's focus.

[Rand M.]

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/8343/clerkshipsp.png

Cornell too then.

Yeah, but then you're stuck in Ithaca.

Texas? My point is your .png is just not the full story. The full story is that CCN are better schools by some margin between 1-100. If there is a reason you prefer Penn, or CCN are not an option, go to Penn. It is a good school, and will open doors for you. However, it simply does not belong "alongside" CCN.

[megaTTTron]

CCN > Penn but it's not a huge difference.

Meh, I'll disagree just to start a fight.

I want to do transactional work.

Columbia and NYU are in New York. If you're looking to do corporate transaction work, you should be going to one of these schools.

Chicago has a law and economics focus that will give you insight into how corporate transactions actually work.

Penn is... Ivy League?

I don't think recruiters actually care about UChi's focus.

Yea. But I don't think it loses any ground vs CN in terms of transactional work in NYC.

[Rand M.]

I'm getting pissed. I can't find the link where people combined the BigLaw and Clerkship data. Does anyone have it tagged?

Even once you find it, Penn will still not be a peer of CCN.

[vanwinkle]

CCN > Penn due largely to prestige and networking (which are significant only because they play such a large role in legal hiring).

The differences aren't huge, and are more in the middle than at the ends. If you're first in your class at Penn you should have every opportunity you'd have at CCN. If you're at the bottom of your class at CCN you're about as screwed as if you were at the bottom of your class at Penn. There will be situations where it'll make a difference, maybe being just above median at Penn isn't enough but being just above median at CCN would be for a particular place.

For the most part, the differences are small enough that they could easily be overcome by having better grades. The problem for 0Ls is there's no way to know going in whether they'll have good grades or not. If I knew as a 0L I'd be a median student and I was still dedicated to going to law school, I'd go to CCN to maximize my employment odds. If I knew I'd be at the top of my class and Penn gave me money that CCN didn't, I'd go to Penn. If you could know everything ahead of time these decisions would be easy. It's only because you can't predict how well you'd do that it's so hard.

[09042014]

Yea. But I don't think it loses any ground vs CN in terms of transactional work in NYC.

Yea probably not. Possibly by having a smaller alumni network. I'd certainly go to Uchi over Penn if I wanted NYC big law.

[Renzo]

CCN > Penn due largely to prestige and networking (which are significant only because they play such a large role in legal hiring).

The differences aren't huge, and are more in the middle than at the ends. If you're first in your class at Penn you should have every opportunity you'd have at CCN. If you're at the bottom of your class at CCN you're about as screwed as if you were at the bottom of your class at Penn. There will be situations where it'll make a difference, maybe being just above median at Penn isn't enough but being just above median at CCN would be for a particular place.

For the most part, the differences are small enough that they could easily be overcome by having better grades. The problem for 0Ls is there's no way to know going in whether they'll have good grades or not. If I knew as a 0L I'd be a median student and I was still dedicated to going to law school, I'd go to CCN to maximize my employment odds. If I knew I'd be at the top of my class and Penn gave me money that CCN didn't, I'd go to Penn. If you could know everything ahead of time these decisions would be easy. It's only because you can't predict how well you'd do that it's so hard.

All of this. Plus, your personal happiness is about the only thing that will effect your grades that you can semi-control your 1L year; so, of you like one of those schools physical plant, cities, neighborhoods, etc. better, go there.

[AreJay711]

I guess I'll keep saying this since no one has really argued against it on here:

The biggest difference between CCN and 7-12 is really only placement in the most prestigious firms.

Overall placement is pretty much the same so from a realistic financial sense they are the same (unless you make partner but lets not get ahead of ourselves). I think the emphasis on TLS is because of the difference in the medians though. I've heard t10 is an important distinction for academia but not t6 really. I've also read on here that there are more non-firm options from CCN but there isn't really any data that I have seen on that so it is pretty much just hearsay as far as I'm concerned.

[megaTTTron]

I guess I'll keep saying this since no one has really argued against it on here:

The biggest difference between CCN and 7-12 is really only placement in the most prestigious firms.

Overall placement is pretty much the same so from a realistic financial sense they are the same (unless you make partner but lets not get ahead of ourselves). I think the emphasis on TLS is because of the difference in the medians though. I've heard t10 is an important distinction for academia but not t6 really. I've also read on here that there are more non-firm options from CCN but there isn't really any data that I have seen on that so it is pretty much just hearsay as far as I'm concerned.

On a related note, I'd like to see the OCI firms going to these schools.

[AreJay711]

I'm getting pissed. I can't find the link where people combined the BigLaw and Clerkship data. Does anyone have it tagged?

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=108528

Its accuracy has been disputed though.

Edit: Grammar

[Renzo]

I'm getting pissed. I can't find the link where people combined the BigLaw and Clerkship data. Does anyone have it tagged?

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=108528

Its accuracy has been disputed though.

Edit: Grammar

I don't dispute the accuracy, but I do dispute the meaningfulness. A 1.5% difference in placement would move you almost ten spots on that list, and with the tiny sample size of one law school class, that's just statistical noise.

[tipler4213]

a

[paulinaporizkova]

I'm getting pissed. I can't find the link where people combined the BigLaw and Clerkship data. Does anyone have it tagged?

Even once you find it, Penn will still not be a peer of CCN.

thus spoke a person going to CCN

[megaTTTron]

I'm getting pissed. I can't find the link where people combined the BigLaw and Clerkship data. Does anyone have it tagged?

Even once you find it, Penn will still not be a peer of CCN.

thus spoke a person going to CCN a genius

ftfy

EDIT: i spelled genius wrong. dear god.

[Veyron]

Little topic for conversation:

In your opinions, what separates UPenn from CCN? Without checking back over the most recent stats, I feel that Penn places as well or better for BigLaw and Federal clerkships.

1) Is it self-selection? I.e., Are Penn students getting worse BigLaw jobs and/or clerkships than NYU, etc? Kind of like how Harvard/Yale rank very low for BigLaw placement?
2) LSAT median? I know Penn's median is a couple of points lower.
3) Philly isn't a big market? I doubt this one because of the proximity to NYC and DC.
4) Is there something I am not considering?
5) Or is it relatively arbitrary and Penn deserves to be consider alongside the T-6?

I'll weigh in here. Mostly I know about Penn v NYU (and to a lesser extent CLS) [Hyde Park is so awful and cold that that alone should be enough to dissuade you] so take things for what they worth.

Firms that pay 160 in NYC will generally go about 10% deeper into the class at CN. For Philly, Penn is going to provide a similar advantage over CN. Firms in other cities don't really seem to care (literally, I have been told by BIGLAW partners in other cities - inc DC - that "hiring doesn't care one bit about distinctions within the T-10 except for HY (and maybe S)")[obvious east coast bias]. I don't know about "prestigious" firms - the Vault rankings always seemed like BS to me, 160 is 160. As associates those associates at CSM who went there because of that firm's high ranking are quickly learning, prestige points are not redeemable for cash.

And that, my friends, is the bulk of the distinction between CCN and Penn.

[paulinaporizkova]

I'm getting pissed. I can't find the link where people combined the BigLaw and Clerkship data. Does anyone have it tagged?

Even once you find it, Penn will still not be a peer of CCN.

thus spoke a person going to CCN a genius

ftfy

EDIT: i spelled genius wrong. dear god.

hmmm, i'm gonna go ahead and say you didn't fix that for me. are you and rand m. sleeping with each other or what?