School expectations Forum

[McBailey]

Hi -

I went to NYU and graduated with a 3.52 GPA from Tisch School of the Arts (BFA in Drama). I know my GPA doesn't break the bank and I am waiting for the results of my October LSAT, though I am confident I scored at least 165+. I worked at least 15-20 hours a week during school, with full-time hours over holiday breaks and the summers. My lower GPA can be partly attributed to my job on top of an already heavy course load, and the fact that I had a hard time dealing with September 11th (I was a freshmen at the time). I do not mean to mention the tragedy of 9/11 to gain sympathy, only to state the fact that it was something I wrestled with for a while in school.

All of this said, what are my chances of getting into a top 10 law school, or even a top 20 school? I am hoping my work experience (both in school and 5 years after graduating) along with a strong personal statement and a unique undergrad background will help my chances. Am I over-reaching?

Thank you very much!

[im_blue]

I went to NYU and graduated with a 3.52 GPA. I am waiting for the results of my October LSAT, though I am confident I scored at least 165+.

what are my chances of getting into a top 10 law school, or even a top 20 school?

You'll need a 170+ for T10 and a 167+ will get you WUSTL.

[Lwoods]

Hello fellow NYU alumnus! I was a year behind you... there's a chance we had a class or two together (I wasn't a Tischie but took a lot of Tisch classes).

Anyway, your best bet for a T20 is 168+; for T10 is 172+. Since you'll have been out 6 years by the time you enter (if applying for Fall 2011), it's likely GPA won't carry as much as LSAT (though I understand this varies by school).

If you're a URM (I know there weren't a ton of URMs in Tisch Drama... probably self selecting), you might not need as high of an LSAT.

This is a law school predictor that can give you a better idea:
http://www.lawschoolpredictor.com/wp-co ... ograms.htm

Good luck!

[McBailey]

Thank you for the replies!

And - Lwoods - so good to hear from a fellow NYU alum! What Tisch classes did you have? SLim odds, but maybe we had a class together in Tisch or CAS? What was your major?

[capitalacq]

in all seriousness, all we're doing is making wild guesses until you get your actual LSAT. Do you think you got 170+?

[reasonable_man]

Hello fellow NYU alumnus! I was a year behind you... there's a chance we had a class or two together (I wasn't a Tischie but took a lot of Tisch classes).

Anyway, your best bet for a T20 is 168+; for T10 is 172+. Since you'll have been out 6 years by the time you enter (if applying for Fall 2011), it's likely GPA won't carry as much as LSAT (though I understand this varies by school).

If you're a URM (I know there weren't a ton of URMs in Tisch Drama... probably self selecting), you might not need as high of an LSAT.

This is a law school predictor that can give you a better idea:
http://www.lawschoolpredictor.com/wp-co ... ograms.htm

Good luck!

Note to self. Call NYU and find out the process for giving back my U-grad degree.... As for the hard time with 9/11... (reference to Op).. I Watched it from my window at Rubin as a freshman... Awful to say the least. Something that should have helped me get into law school... Absolutely not. I worked 40 hours a week took a full time course load, played a sport and ran back and forth between long island and the dorms trying to hold together my seriously mentally ill mother so that she wouldn't destroy my younger siblings lives and coached her through her second divorce... Guess what? This does not make me special at all. Not even one little bit. It just doesn't

Now wait for it, wait for it, cause this is going to blow you back in your fucking seat... You're not a special snow-flake either. Your U-grad was not unique. You're a regular person and will get zero boost whatsoever for being so special and enlightened and tischy... Come back with your LSAT and ask the question over.. And leave out the shit about NYU and all of that other superfluous-fluffery because frankly; it will not change your outcome, not even one bit. Being a tisch grad might get you 25% off of your cover charge to see the matinée showing of Cats; but thats about it...

As an aside, best of luck in your future endeavors of saving the world through international cross border ant-eater preservation law; as we all know that a tisch grad is destine to do but one thing; change the world through art and elegance.

[McBailey]

ATTN: "reasonable man"

It was never my intention to say that mentioning 9/11 would help me get into law school. Of course not. In fact, only an idiot would perceive my original post as such. I would never use a national tragedy as a byline to a law school application. I apologize if it was perceived that way. I only meant to say that along with a number of several other personal tragedies that occurred while I was in school - the death of my father, the suicide of a close friend, being caretaker for my godmother during her battle with cervical cancer (and no, I am not exaggerating any of these) - I have dealt with a lot on top of the experiences of a typical college undergrad. None of this makes me a better applicant. All it does is provide some background on me and my experiences. And for the record: I, too, was a Freshmen on 9/11 and watched the towers fall form 5th avenue. The tragedy of that day is not lost on me.

[strawberryfanta]

Um resonable man, I think that was a little overboard...

To the OP, your softs seem pretty average tbh. Lawschoolpredictor is credited, also check out http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com.

[reasonable_man]

Um resonable man, I think that was a little overboard...

To the OP, your softs seem pretty average tbh. Lawschoolpredictor is credited, also check out http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com.

Actually... They seem a little below average... Go meet a few NYU Tisch grads... You'll understand the frustration right away. Probably the most self important bunch of losers you'll ever come across... They're just sooooo interesting and special...

[im_blue]

Um resonable man, I think that was a little overboard...

To the OP, your softs seem pretty average tbh. Lawschoolpredictor is credited, also check out http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com.

Go meet a few NYU Tisch grads... You'll understand the frustration right away. Probably the most self important bunch of losers you'll ever come across... They're just sooooo interesting and special...

IME NYU grads in general are insufferable with their attitude of having gone to college in the best city on the planet.

[Lwoods]

Thank you for the replies!

And - Lwoods - so good to hear from a fellow NYU alum! What Tisch classes did you have? SLim odds, but maybe we had a class together in Tisch or CAS? What was your major?

I was a Gallatin kid and studied theatrical production. In Tisch I took Producing Essentials, Indian Dance, Stage Management (with Moses, of course), and The American Musical. I took a couple more my senior year as well, but you were gone by then.
Most of my classes were in Gallatin, Tisch and Stern... tried to avoid CAS like the plague but did take a lot of math and econ classes.

I'm not sure why reasonable_man is so offended by our exchange... I didn't give you any boost for softs when I told you the LSAT minimums.

That's because we can't tell how strong your softs are by what you've put, and I totally understand not wanting to list specifics on here. Simply being a drama major won't help, but what you've done after could. My closest friend from college, my sorority little, was Tisch Drama (CAP 21), and I've met most of her studio friends and friends from other studios. She has been in a handful of Off-Broadway productions and some of the most prestigious regional companies. Most of her guy friends are finding consistent work as chorus boys on Broadway and in National Tours. The biggest star from her studio class is Gaga... another friend is a regular on a successful television show...
So, I think it's entirely possible you have unique softs. If you act in the occasional off-off-Broadway production and hold a day job, I agree that won't get you much. However, if you're a series regular in a well-known television show or are singing duets with Elton John at the Grammy Awards, then you'll definitely get noticed. (Even better if you started a charity teaching dance to homeless girls in the South Bronx... or something).

Good luck!

[JOThompson]

I'd suggest writing a GPA addendum then, provided that it's short and clear.

[Skyhook]

(Best city on the planet... Very objective there...)

With an LSAT score the advice can be a little better, but posing the hypothetical now can help prepare for the actuality.
Cut the OP some slack for asking.

OP, you come asking for advice and that is what you should get, not a load of abuse.
Don't feel you have to justify yourself to people on here.

Anyhow, that seems an overly harsh response from a "reasonable" person.
Sounds like it's a personal grudge against Tisch

[rdcws000]

Note to self. Call NYU and find out the process for giving back my U-grad degree.... As for the hard time with 9/11... (reference to Op).. I Watched it from my window at Rubin as a freshman... Awful to say the least. Something that should have helped me get into law school... Absolutely not. I worked 40 hours a week took a full time course load, played a sport and ran back and forth between long island and the dorms trying to hold together my seriously mentally ill mother so that she wouldn't destroy my younger siblings lives and coached her through her second divorce... Guess what? This does not make me special at all. Not even one little bit. It just doesn't

Want a cookie?

OP expended quite a bit less effort than you did in establishing special snowflake status. It sounds like you were just offended that he or she threatened your specialness.

[JOThompson]

Hello fellow NYU alumnus! I was a year behind you... there's a chance we had a class or two together (I wasn't a Tischie but took a lot of Tisch classes).

Anyway, your best bet for a T20 is 168+; for T10 is 172+. Since you'll have been out 6 years by the time you enter (if applying for Fall 2011), it's likely GPA won't carry as much as LSAT (though I understand this varies by school).

If you're a URM (I know there weren't a ton of URMs in Tisch Drama... probably self selecting), you might not need as high of an LSAT.

This is a law school predictor that can give you a better idea:
http://www.lawschoolpredictor.com/wp-co ... ograms.htm

Good luck!

Note to self. Call NYU and find out the process for giving back my U-grad degree.... As for the hard time with 9/11... (reference to Op).. I Watched it from my window at Rubin as a freshman... Awful to say the least. Something that should have helped me get into law school... Absolutely not. I worked 40 hours a week took a full time course load, played a sport and ran back and forth between long island and the dorms trying to hold together my seriously mentally ill mother so that she wouldn't destroy my younger siblings lives and coached her through her second divorce... Guess what? This does not make me special at all. Not even one little bit. It just doesn't

Now wait for it, wait for it, cause this is going to blow you back in your fucking seat... You're not a special snow-flake either. Your U-grad was not unique. You're a regular person and will get zero boost whatsoever for being so special and enlightened and tischy... Come back with your LSAT and ask the question over.. And leave out the shit about NYU and all of that other superfluous-fluffery because frankly; it will not change your outcome, not even one bit. Being a tisch grad might get you 25% off of your cover charge to see the matinée showing of Cats; but thats about it...

As an aside, best of luck in your future endeavors of saving the world through international cross border ant-eater preservation law; as we all know that a tisch grad is destine to do but one thing; change the world through art and elegance.

Why do you so often make valid points that are drenched in douchebag language? Yeah, it's a widely known fact on TLS that undergrad prestige means zero in almost all applications, with possible exceptions for undergrad degrees from HYP. People would be more prone to accept your advice if you were able to express your views without berating the recipient.

[Aqualibrium]

TLS baffles me. A gpa addendum for a 3.5 at NYU? I suppose it is better to aim high, but geez.

[JOThompson]

TLS baffles me. A gpa addendum for a 3.5 at NYU? I suppose it is better to aim high, but geez.

Depends on the circumstances. I wrote an addendum about family emergencies that interfered with my grades for one semester. My overall GPA was high but the transcript looked ugly for a short period (think C's and incompletes). I spoke personally with a few adcomms and they thought an addendum would be appropriate not only for short term fluctuations but also for applicants who worked long hours through undergrad. As long as the addendum doesn't suffer from an entitled or whiny tone, there's only benefit and not harm in it.

[Aqualibrium]

TLS baffles me. A gpa addendum for a 3.5 at NYU? I suppose it is better to aim high, but geez.

Depends on the circumstances. I wrote an addendum about family emergencies that interfered with my grades for one semester. My overall GPA was high but the transcript looked ugly for a short period (think C's and incompletes). I spoke personally with a few adcomms and they thought an addendum would be appropriate not only for short term fluctuations but also for applicants who worked long hours through undergrad. As long as the addendum doesn't suffer from an entitled or whiny tone, there's only benefit and not harm in it.

OK, I agree with this.

[reasonable_man]

Hello fellow NYU alumnus! I was a year behind you... there's a chance we had a class or two together (I wasn't a Tischie but took a lot of Tisch classes).

Anyway, your best bet for a T20 is 168+; for T10 is 172+. Since you'll have been out 6 years by the time you enter (if applying for Fall 2011), it's likely GPA won't carry as much as LSAT (though I understand this varies by school).

If you're a URM (I know there weren't a ton of URMs in Tisch Drama... probably self selecting), you might not need as high of an LSAT.

This is a law school predictor that can give you a better idea:
http://www.lawschoolpredictor.com/wp-co ... ograms.htm

Good luck!

Note to self. Call NYU and find out the process for giving back my U-grad degree.... As for the hard time with 9/11... (reference to Op).. I Watched it from my window at Rubin as a freshman... Awful to say the least. Something that should have helped me get into law school... Absolutely not. I worked 40 hours a week took a full time course load, played a sport and ran back and forth between long island and the dorms trying to hold together my seriously mentally ill mother so that she wouldn't destroy my younger siblings lives and coached her through her second divorce... Guess what? This does not make me special at all. Not even one little bit. It just doesn't

Now wait for it, wait for it, cause this is going to blow you back in your fucking seat... You're not a special snow-flake either. Your U-grad was not unique. You're a regular person and will get zero boost whatsoever for being so special and enlightened and tischy... Come back with your LSAT and ask the question over.. And leave out the shit about NYU and all of that other superfluous-fluffery because frankly; it will not change your outcome, not even one bit. Being a tisch grad might get you 25% off of your cover charge to see the matinée showing of Cats; but thats about it...

As an aside, best of luck in your future endeavors of saving the world through international cross border ant-eater preservation law; as we all know that a tisch grad is destine to do but one thing; change the world through art and elegance.

Why do you so often make valid points that are drenched in douchebag language? Yeah, it's a widely known fact on TLS that undergrad prestige means zero in almost all applications, with possible exceptions for undergrad degrees from HYP. People would be more prone to accept your advice if you were able to express your views without berating the recipient.

Because the kids love me.

[reasonable_man]

Note to self. Call NYU and find out the process for giving back my U-grad degree.... As for the hard time with 9/11... (reference to Op).. I Watched it from my window at Rubin as a freshman... Awful to say the least. Something that should have helped me get into law school... Absolutely not. I worked 40 hours a week took a full time course load, played a sport and ran back and forth between long island and the dorms trying to hold together my seriously mentally ill mother so that she wouldn't destroy my younger siblings lives and coached her through her second divorce... Guess what? This does not make me special at all. Not even one little bit. It just doesn't

Want a cookie?

OP expended quite a bit less effort than you did in establishing special snowflake status. It sounds like you were just offended that he or she threatened your specialness.

Nope. Not at all. I believe that no one is special in the admissions game. And I have found that sadly, for whatever reason, NYU kids believe that for whatever reason, they are the most special people around and its something that I has sickened me since the day I made the awful mistake of sending in my seat deposit.

[vanwinkle]

Note to self. Call NYU and find out the process for giving back my U-grad degree.... As for the hard time with 9/11... (reference to Op).. I Watched it from my window at Rubin as a freshman... Awful to say the least. Something that should have helped me get into law school... Absolutely not. I worked 40 hours a week took a full time course load, played a sport and ran back and forth between long island and the dorms trying to hold together my seriously mentally ill mother so that she wouldn't destroy my younger siblings lives and coached her through her second divorce... Guess what? This does not make me special at all. Not even one little bit. It just doesn't

This is excessively harsh, and not really accurate either. Explanations for a low GPA some semesters than others (including PTSD or related trauma from 9/11, which many people in NYC had to deal with) are entirely valid and suitable for mentioning in a GPA addendum, and can make at least some difference. The idea is not to argue that you're "special" but to make a brief factual case in an addendum that your GPA the semesters you weren't affected by serious trauma is more indicative of your actual performance. It's not about being "special" but simply focusing on the positives and giving reasons for the negatives; there's nothing "special" about doing that at all, it's what everyone should be doing in their applications.

Schools will still want to see other factors that come out in their favor (a median-or-higher LSAT score and years of WE) but OP could potentially have both of those. If he does a GPA addendum would be appropriate and could help him get into some top schools.

Nope. Not at all. I believe that no one is special in the admissions game.

That's your personal perspective, but it doesn't call for the hostility you expressed toward someone else. And just because you shouldered your burdens without comment doesn't mean that other people should too, or that you should berate them for asking if they should be open about their burdens and the effects they've had. Please keep that in mind in the future.

[Ginj]

Note to self. Call NYU and find out the process for giving back my U-grad degree.... As for the hard time with 9/11... (reference to Op).. I Watched it from my window at Rubin as a freshman... Awful to say the least. Something that should have helped me get into law school... Absolutely not. I worked 40 hours a week took a full time course load, played a sport and ran back and forth between long island and the dorms trying to hold together my seriously mentally ill mother so that she wouldn't destroy my younger siblings lives and coached her through her second divorce... Guess what? This does not make me special at all. Not even one little bit. It just doesn't

This is excessively harsh, and not really accurate either. Explanations for a low GPA some semesters than others (including PTSD or related trauma from 9/11, which many people in NYC had to deal with) are entirely valid and suitable for mentioning in a GPA addendum, and can make at least some difference. The idea is not to argue that you're "special" but to make a brief factual case in an addendum that your GPA the semesters you weren't affected by serious trauma is more indicative of your actual performance. It's not about being "special" but simply focusing on the positives and giving reasons for the negatives; there's nothing "special" about doing that at all, it's what everyone should be doing in their applications.

Schools will still want to see other factors that come out in their favor (a median-or-higher LSAT score and years of WE) but OP could potentially have both of those. If he does a GPA addendum would be appropriate and could help him get into some top schools.

Nope. Not at all. I believe that no one is special in the admissions game.

That's your personal perspective, but it doesn't call for the hostility you expressed toward someone else. And just because you shouldered your burdens without comment doesn't mean that other people should too, or that you should berate them for asking if they should be open about their burdens and the effects they've had. Please keep that in mind in the future.

ZING

[reasonable_man]

Note to self. Call NYU and find out the process for giving back my U-grad degree.... As for the hard time with 9/11... (reference to Op).. I Watched it from my window at Rubin as a freshman... Awful to say the least. Something that should have helped me get into law school... Absolutely not. I worked 40 hours a week took a full time course load, played a sport and ran back and forth between long island and the dorms trying to hold together my seriously mentally ill mother so that she wouldn't destroy my younger siblings lives and coached her through her second divorce... Guess what? This does not make me special at all. Not even one little bit. It just doesn't

This is excessively harsh, and not really accurate either. Explanations for a low GPA some semesters than others (including PTSD or related trauma from 9/11, which many people in NYC had to deal with) are entirely valid and suitable for mentioning in a GPA addendum, and can make at least some difference. The idea is not to argue that you're "special" but to make a brief factual case in an addendum that your GPA the semesters you weren't affected by serious trauma is more indicative of your actual performance. It's not about being "special" but simply focusing on the positives and giving reasons for the negatives; there's nothing "special" about doing that at all, it's what everyone should be doing in their applications.

Schools will still want to see other factors that come out in their favor (a median-or-higher LSAT score and years of WE) but OP could potentially have both of those. If he does a GPA addendum would be appropriate and could help him get into some top schools.

Nope. Not at all. I believe that no one is special in the admissions game.

That's your personal perspective, but it doesn't call for the hostility you expressed toward someone else. And just because you shouldered your burdens without comment doesn't mean that other people should too, or that you should berate them for asking if they should be open about their burdens and the effects they've had. Please keep that in mind in the future.

So where were the "burdens" that i missed in there? Going to work and living through 9/11? Those aren't burdens, that's life for most Americans.

You do a good job of keeping these boards in check, so I'll defer to you in this instance out of respect, but frankly, I don't see anything in here that would come close to a burden worth addressing to a law school adcom.

[vanwinkle]

So where were the "burdens" that i missed in there? Going to work and living through 9/11? Those aren't burdens, that's life for most Americans.

You do a good job of keeping these boards in check, so I'll defer to you in this instance out of respect, but frankly, I don't see anything in here that would come close to a burden worth addressing to a law school adcom.

Surviving 9/11 was a burden and legitimate traumatic experience for many thousands of New Yorkers. I referred to PTSD because it there was a real spike in PTSD diagnoses specific to people who were in 9/11 and directly witnessed the event or its effects that day. There are real, demonstrated long-term effects on survivors and direct witnesses, and the fact that you didn't suffer them doesn't mean they didn't become significant burdens for others.

Real people are not like John Wayne. They don't shrug off trauma as "that's life" and carry on. Maybe some do, but on the whole as a species, people don't. Expecting everyone to be John Wayne and being hostile toward those who aren't is not a great idea.

Pretend I'm not a moderator for a minute and please just listen to me on this as a person who is very familiar with the effects of trauma small and large on people. It's important to respect that things effect different people in different degrees and there are people who were legitimately traumatized by 9/11, and to not diminish or mock that so completely. It's hard enough overcoming the effects on you without dealing with people mocking your trauma.

[reasonable_man]

So where were the "burdens" that i missed in there? Going to work and living through 9/11? Those aren't burdens, that's life for most Americans.

You do a good job of keeping these boards in check, so I'll defer to you in this instance out of respect, but frankly, I don't see anything in here that would come close to a burden worth addressing to a law school adcom.

Surviving 9/11 was a burden and legitimate traumatic experience for many thousands of New Yorkers. I referred to PTSD because it there was a real spike in PTSD diagnoses specific to people who were in 9/11 and directly witnessed the event or its effects that day. There are real, demonstrated long-term effects on survivors and direct witnesses, and the fact that you didn't suffer them doesn't mean they didn't become significant burdens for others.

Real people are not like John Wayne. They don't shrug off trauma as "that's life" and carry on. Maybe some do, but on the whole as a species, people don't. Expecting everyone to be John Wayne and being hostile toward those who aren't is not a great idea.

Pretend I'm not a moderator for a minute and please just listen to me on this as a person who is very familiar with the effects of trauma small and large on people. It's important to respect that things effect different people in different degrees and there are people who were legitimately traumatized by 9/11, and to not diminish or mock that so completely. It's hard enough overcoming the effects on you without dealing with people mocking your trauma.

I'm sorry. But i'm entitled to my point of view and my point of view on this is simple. It was an awful tragic event. I actually watched the towers fall with my own two eyes. My aunt worked on the ground floor and luckily was late to work that day because she stopped off to vote in a local election. My step father was working on the 86th floor the day prior doing a telecom install. My fiance's father, a decorated high ranking NYPD officer was working at 1 police plaza that day and was inside the towers doing evacuation before they came down. I was close to this as well. But I do not believe that being 35 blocks away at NYU should have sufficiently caused me, or any other NYU student, enough stress to serve as a mitigating factor for grades, etc., so much so that its worthy of bringing it up to an adcom.

I'm a life-long NYer, from a not so nice part of town (which, maybe, has led me to be less forgiving of trumped up psycho-bable), but frankly, I know people that lost family that day and that is worthy of some serious consideration. But simply witnessing it from 35 blocks away on the NYU campus is just not convincing from my point of view. So I'm sorry, but on this point, you and I differ and I believe that, even on TLS, we are allowed to not agree.