How to let a close friend know she has little/no chance? Forum

[20121109]

So one of my best friends is applying to LS this fall. Her stats 165/3.25.

She has her heart set on T6 schools and she won't really settle for anything less than T14. With her stats, she doesn't appear to have a good shot. No URM, no wonderful softs etc...

She keeps saying things like, "The adcomms will see that I got all As in my writing classes and that has to mean something, right?" "Law school admissions should be just like undergrad...hopefully it won't be all about the numbers..." "Even if I get a score in the mid 160s that should at least get me Cornell, then I can transfer..."

All I've done is try to provide as much motivation as possible. I've consistently told her that she's capable of getting a score in the mid 170s, and I really believe that she is...but I'm nervous for her. She's so certain that she will get a T14 school even with a mid 160s score. Should I tell her that she should put her cycle on hold until she gets her 170+ so she can actually get into a T14? I'd hate for her to be utterly disappointed with the upcoming cycle...Or should I suggest that she lower her expectations a little? Or should I just remain silent and be her personal cheerleader for the LSAT?

[gdane]

Why not just let reality give her a swift kick in the ass? Whats so wrong about that? Im sure you dont want her to get hurt or see her "mess up", but in this case its warranted. Let her apply and let her see what happens. Besides, you never know what could happen. By some miracle maybe she'll be accepted at a school she likes.

[Ragged]

When I read the title I thought you meant you had a friend who wanted to be more than.

[kalvano]

Send her a link to my LSN profile.

[CGI Fridays]

Unless she's applying with all fee waivers or you think she'll be fine with changing her expectations, I'd take a gulp and show her LSN. Save her some time, money & psychological distress.

[tazmolover]

Delusional friends. Everyone has one.

[St.Remy]

Try bringing up in discussion the fee waivers that you received during your cycle. With your friend's numbers she probably isn't receiving any, and when this comes up you can steer her towards a site like LSN. If she's still in school I think that bursting her bubble is the right thing to do, since it will be pretty late in the game when she hears back from all of the T14 (especially considering the possibility of dying the slow death of a waitlist). If she's out of school then letting reality show her the situation as suggested by a previous poster might be the easiest way to deal with the situation.

[dakatz]

Here is a good idea. Convince her to apply to a bunch of "safety" schools (which in reality are her targets) in the 25-40 range. So when she gets rejected from all the T14 schools, she can still fall back on a "safety". You can essentially run with her delusions and help her out at the same time.

[gdane]

All these answers are garbage. I still think that you should just let her f*ck up. She seems to have her heart set on this, leave her be.

[20121109]

Thanks for the advice so far, guys

The weird thing is that I told her to check on TLS and LSN for some guidance, and for some reason, she still thinks she has a good chance.

Sometimes when she talks, all I do is smile and nod. But I do like the idea of discussing fee waivers...even though fee waivers aren't always a good indicator of future acceptance, it might serve me well for my purposes.

She's pretty stubborn, too. Convincing her to apply to lesser schools will be tough. She's hoping for HYS

[kalvano]

Have you referred her to TLS?

[20121109]

Have you referred her to TLS?

Yes. Please see above post

[CanadianWolf]

Just be a true friend & encourage her to apply to a few safety schools.

[tazmolover]

She may have a hidden trump card. Maybe she knows the deans of HYS ???

No one can be so confident without having something....

[kalvano]

Just be a true friend & encourage her to apply to a few safety schools.

A true friend would tell them that they are being stupid.

[tazmolover]

Just be a true friend & encourage her to apply to a few safety schools.

A true friend would tell them that they are being stupid.

It's hard though. I mean we all tell ourselves it would be easy but have you ever had a REALLY close friend who was just so irrationally stubborn on something that mattered a lot to them?

It's really hard to convince them without at least straining that friendship.

[kalvano]

Just be a true friend & encourage her to apply to a few safety schools.

A true friend would tell them that they are being stupid.

It's hard though. I mean we all tell ourselves it would be easy but have you ever had a REALLY close friend who was just so irrationally stubborn on something that mattered a lot to them?

It's really hard to convince them without at least straining that friendship.

Yes, I have, and yes, it was difficult, but in the end, it was more beneficial for him.

Of course, that was between guys and this is between girls, so God only know what could happen. Girls are weird.

[bdubs]

Have you referred her to TLS?

Yes. Please see above post

If she is so stubborn then just let her throw away the application fees at T14s, but make sure you steer her towards having a "safety" that you think she really will get into.

Who knows, maybe she is in that 0.0001% who write their way into the school.

[tazmolover]

Reflecting on these comments...

I just realized letting her delusions go on is probably the best idea.

Don't let her apply to lower than t14 schools. This way she is sure to get dinged at all schools she applies to and won't have to take on a 200k debt at a school with no job prospects.

[12262010]

let her figure it out herself when she gets dinged. just suggest some safeties (read: matches) for her.

[BaiAilian2013]

Maybe you could try directly contradicting her misconceptions but framing it in a friendly way. Like, "it's weird, like you would think that they would look beyond your numbers, look at how you did in writing classes and stuff, but looking at [my cycle / LSP / LSN / TLS] it seems like it really IS all about the numbers... it's crazy how different it is from undergrad!" Or I mean, depending on how close you are, you might not even have to waffle around it like that. I have friends who would be able to say, "dude, I don't think you're getting there with that GPA" or "wait, are you sure Harvard will even take a GPA like that?" (and then argue back when I say yes).

[legalease9]

Here is a good idea. Convince her to apply to a bunch of "safety" schools (which in reality are her targets) in the 25-40 range. So when she gets rejected from all the T14 schools, she can still fall back on a "safety". You can essentially run with her delusions and help her out at the same time.

This. And make sure she picks her 25-40 range school in a place where she wants to practice, because that's where she will be practicing.

[JG Hall]

All these answers are garbage. I still think that you should just let her f*ck up. She seems to have her heart set on this, leave her be.

[im_blue]

With her numbers, your friend is looking at T30-50 schools. But I would just let her get dinged from her list of T14s, because even if you convince her to apply to some "safety" schools, she'll probably attend one thinking she can easily make $160k like the schools claim.

Since you're a 3.9/172 at HLS, she probably won't listen to you either way due to her inferiority complex.

[20121109]

Yeah...really don't feel comfortable with just letting my best friend learn her lesson when she gets dinged. That's how it was for me during undergrad admissions and I don't wish that feeling upon anyone. I feel like as a friend I should at least try to protect her from that outcome. I'll take the advice of posters and suggest that she apply to "safety schools."

...she probably won't listen to you either way due to her inferiority complex.

I really hope this isn't the case...I don't want her to think that she's competing with me or something.

Maybe you could try directly contradicting her misconceptions but framing it in a friendly way. Like, "it's weird, like you would think that they would look beyond your numbers, look at how you did in writing classes and stuff, but looking at [my cycle / LSP / LSN / TLS] it seems like it really IS all about the numbers... it's crazy how different it is from undergrad!"

I like this too.