Average salaries? Forum

[drdreesq]

Of a T1 grad?

Of a T2 grad?

Of a T3/T4 grad?

Just rough figures. Of course I know theoretically anyone from anywhere can make any salary--but I'm just talking about averages.

[lsat_fear]

Of a T1 grad?

Of a T2 grad?

Of a T3/T4 grad?

Just rough figures. Of course I know theoretically anyone from anywhere can make any salary--but I'm just talking about averages.

My prediction for actual averages of the class of 2011 (i.e., including the ones who don't answer the survey questions).
HYS salary: still $145k to 160k
CCN: 120k (most get biglaw, but enough end up in shitlaw to bring down the average)
rest of T14 except Cornell and GULC: around 100k
Cornell, GULC, Vandy, UCLA, Texas: probably around 90k
rest of T1: 70k
T2: 50k
T3/T4: 35k (most of them won't get legal employment and will do stuff they would have done had they not gone to law school)

[shanemahsa]

My prediction for actual averages of the class of 2011 (i.e., including the ones who don't answer the survey questions).
HYS salary: still $145k to 160k
CCN: 120k (most get biglaw, but enough end up in shitlaw to bring down the average)
rest of T14 except Cornell and GULC: around 100k
Cornell, GULC, Vandy, UCLA, Texas: probably around 90k
rest of T1: 70k
T2: 50k
T3/T4: 35k (most of them won't get legal employment and will do stuff they would have done had they not gone to law school)

I assume you're referring to private practice salaries?

[lsat_fear]

My prediction for actual averages of the class of 2011 (i.e., including the ones who don't answer the survey questions).
HYS salary: still $145k to 160k
CCN: 120k (most get biglaw, but enough end up in shitlaw to bring down the average)
rest of T14 except Cornell and GULC: around 100k
Cornell, GULC, Vandy, UCLA, Texas: probably around 90k
rest of T1: 70k
T2: 50k
T3/T4: 35k (most of them won't get legal employment and will do stuff they would have done had they not gone to law school)

I assume you're referring to private practice salaries?

yes. if you include all forms of employment, just divide each number by 3.

[shanemahsa]

yes.

Just checking Though I would argue that your CCN salaries are low.

[drdreesq]

T3/T4 obviously doesn't look good. Probably not even worth it unless you want to be a lawyer for some activist reasons.

[ComatoseClown]

My prediction for actual averages of the class of 2011 (i.e., including the ones who don't answer the survey questions).
HYS salary: still $145k to 160k
CCN: 120k (most get biglaw, but enough end up in shitlaw to bring down the average)
rest of T14 except Cornell and GULC: around 100k
Cornell, GULC, Vandy, UCLA, Texas: probably around 90k
rest of T1: 70k
T2: 50k
T3/T4: 35k (most of them won't get legal employment and will do stuff they would have done had they not gone to law school)

Lol, don't you think you're being rather harsh?

I mean, looking at these, are you saying they're inaccurate/inflated?:
USC - $160,000 http://weblaw.usc.edu/careers/statistics/
UCLA - $160,000 http://www.law.ucla.edu/home/index.asp?page=1307
Duke - $160,000 http://www.law.duke.edu/admis/employment
Penn - $160,000 http://www.law.upenn.edu/cpp/prospectiv ... stics.html
Columbia - $160,000 http://www.law.columbia.edu/careers/car ... s/admitted

Even if these statistics were collected before the recession, I doubt these schools' salaries could have experienced such a landslide...

[Mike12188]

My prediction for actual averages of the class of 2011 (i.e., including the ones who don't answer the survey questions).
HYS salary: still $145k to 160k
CCN: 120k (most get biglaw, but enough end up in shitlaw to bring down the average)
rest of T14 except Cornell and GULC: around 100k
Cornell, GULC, Vandy, UCLA, Texas: probably around 90k
rest of T1: 70k
T2: 50k
T3/T4: 35k (most of them won't get legal employment and will do stuff they would have done had they not gone to law school)

Lol, don't you think you're being rather harsh?

I mean, looking at these, are you saying they're inaccurate/inflated?:
USC - $160,000 http://weblaw.usc.edu/careers/statistics/
UCLA - $160,000 http://www.law.ucla.edu/home/index.asp?page=1307
Duke - $160,000 http://www.law.duke.edu/admis/employment
Penn - $160,000 http://www.law.upenn.edu/cpp/prospectiv ... stics.html
Columbia - $160,000 http://www.law.columbia.edu/careers/car ... s/admitted

Even if these statistics were collected before the recession, I doubt these schools' salaries could have experienced such a landslide...

1. From what I understand those numbers are from a small sample of people who actually report salaries
2. Those are medians, not averages

[nealric]

My prediction for actual averages of the class of 2011 (i.e., including the ones who don't answer the survey questions).
HYS salary: still $145k to 160k
CCN: 120k (most get biglaw, but enough end up in shitlaw to bring down the average)
rest of T14 except Cornell and GULC: around 100k
Cornell, GULC, Vandy, UCLA, Texas: probably around 90k
rest of T1: 70k
T2: 50k
T3/T4: 35k (most of them won't get legal employment and will do stuff they would have done had they not gone to law school)

Lol, don't you think you're being rather harsh?

I mean, looking at these, are you saying they're inaccurate/inflated?:
USC - $160,000 http://weblaw.usc.edu/careers/statistics/
UCLA - $160,000 http://www.law.ucla.edu/home/index.asp?page=1307
Duke - $160,000 http://www.law.duke.edu/admis/employment
Penn - $160,000 http://www.law.upenn.edu/cpp/prospectiv ... stics.html
Columbia - $160,000 http://www.law.columbia.edu/careers/car ... s/admitted

Even if these statistics were collected before the recession, I doubt these schools' salaries could have experienced such a landslide...

As a recent T14 graduate, I can pretty confidently say that those numbers are horse excrement.

[rayiner]

yes.

Just checking Though I would argue that your CCN salaries are low.

1/3 of the folks who did EIP at CCN struck out.

33% * 50k + 66% * 160k = 122k.

This is actually probably high. Some fraction of the people who did get offers will get no-offered, and along with some of the folks who struck out at EIP, they will be unemployed at graduation. So the real statistic is probably more like:

5% * 0k + 33% * 50k + 62% * 160k = 115k.

[rayiner]

My prediction for actual averages of the class of 2011 (i.e., including the ones who don't answer the survey questions).
HYS salary: still $145k to 160k
CCN: 120k (most get biglaw, but enough end up in shitlaw to bring down the average)
rest of T14 except Cornell and GULC: around 100k
Cornell, GULC, Vandy, UCLA, Texas: probably around 90k
rest of T1: 70k
T2: 50k
T3/T4: 35k (most of them won't get legal employment and will do stuff they would have done had they not gone to law school)

Lol, don't you think you're being rather harsh?

I mean, looking at these, are you saying they're inaccurate/inflated?:
USC - $160,000 http://weblaw.usc.edu/careers/statistics/
UCLA - $160,000 http://www.law.ucla.edu/home/index.asp?page=1307
Duke - $160,000 http://www.law.duke.edu/admis/employment
Penn - $160,000 http://www.law.upenn.edu/cpp/prospectiv ... stics.html
Columbia - $160,000 http://www.law.columbia.edu/careers/car ... s/admitted

Even if these statistics were collected before the recession, I doubt these schools' salaries could have experienced such a landslide...

As a recent T14 graduate, I can pretty confidently say that those numbers are horse excrement.

Eh. Pre-ITE, those were almost certainly the proper private-practice medians.

[shanemahsa]

yes.

Just checking Though I would argue that your CCN salaries are low.

1/3 of the folks who did EIP at CCN struck out.

33% * 50k + 66% * 160k = 122k.

This is actually probably high. Some fraction of the people who did get offers will get no-offered, and along with some of the folks who struck out at EIP, they will be unemployed at graduation. So the real statistic is probably more like:

5% * 0k + 33% * 50k + 62% * 160k = 115k.

For what year?

[rayiner]

yes.

Just checking Though I would argue that your CCN salaries are low.

1/3 of the folks who did EIP at CCN struck out.

33% * 50k + 66% * 160k = 122k.

This is actually probably high. Some fraction of the people who did get offers will get no-offered, and along with some of the folks who struck out at EIP, they will be unemployed at graduation. So the real statistic is probably more like:

5% * 0k + 33% * 50k + 62% * 160k = 115k.

For what year?

Class of 2011 and 2012 at least. These folks will (assuming no double dip) have a high offer rate (95% would be my guess). Class of 2010 will be worse because they got no-offered like crazy.

[shanemahsa]

For what year?

Class of 2011 and 2012 at least. These folks will (assuming no double dip) have a high offer rate (95% would be my guess). Class of 2010 will be worse because they got no-offered like crazy.

Bummer. So what would you say differentiates those who get the jobs from those to strike-out/get no-offered? Strictly GPA?

Edited for clarity.

[r6_philly]

Bummer. So what would you say differentiates those who get the jobs from those to strike-out/get no-offered? Strictly GPA?

Edited for clarity.

I am going to take a wild stab and say there are many kids that attend T14 schools will have to work hard to convince employers to hire them, due to their personalities. Pre-ITE, not a big deal. In a buyer's (employer's) market, how they like you may be a bigger deal.

[Oban]

GPA, work experience, the ability to sell them selves as grinders/cogs to be worked, physical appearance, URM status

[rayiner]

For what year?

Class of 2011 and 2012 at least. These folks will (assuming no double dip) have a high offer rate (95% would be my guess). Class of 2010 will be worse because they got no-offered like crazy.

Bummer. So what would you say differentiates those who get the jobs from those to strike-out/get no-offered? Strictly GPA?

Edited for clarity.

For SA offers, it works like this: A firm wants to interview 40 and call back 15 from your school. They give the interviewer a cut-off (say top 25%) which may be soft or hard, depending on the firm. They will have some number accept their callbacks, say 12, and will plan to offer 5-8 of them.

There are multiple "culling" phases here. First, you need to get one of those 40 interview slots in the lottery. Second, you need to get one of those callback slots. If your GPA is below the cut-off, nothing else matters. Above it, you have some room to shine based on a top 10% resume or personality. Third, you need to get an offer from the callback. At this point, it's mostly fit and personality.

Corresponding to these phases are the various ways in which people fail to get jobs:

1) Bid poorly and fail to get interviews at firms that would hire them.
2) Fall below the GPA cut-off at the firms they interview with.
3) Are above the cut-off, but have an average personality/resume so that the interviewer decides to call back someone else with an average personality/resume and higher grades, or even someone with lower grades and a great personality/resume.
4) Can't close the deal at the callback: fail to really tie their resumes to the firm's needs, fail to come off as likable, etc.

For permanent offers, it works like this: Do good work all summer, get everyone to like you, and don't draw attention to yourself. Even then, you might just get unlucky and choose a firm that suffers a drop in work. Even in good years, typical SA offer rates were in the 90% range, maybe a bit higher in NYC. When they don't get unlucky, law students just do stupid things. Come off as arrogant, entitled, do poor work, don't get along with others, etc. Remember that you're signing up to be someone's bitch for the new few years... act accordingly.

[bk1]

T1, T2, T3, and T4 are meaningless differentiations.

[shanemahsa]

Thanks Ray!

[shanemahsa]

T1, T2, T3, and T4 are meaningless differentiations.

Inorite? Now somebody tell that to the people whose opinions matter.

[nealric]

Eh. Pre-ITE, those were almost certainly the proper private-practice medians.

True, but I didn't think those were being presented as pre-ITE medians. If they are supposedly for class of 09, they are still BS as a lot of those people ended up in deferral rescinded-offer land.

[tazmolover]

GPA, work experience, the ability to sell them selves as grinders/cogs to be worked, physical appearance, URM status

How much do the last two matter? I get the first 2 and maybe 3rd...

[nealric]

How much do the last two matter? I get the first 2 and maybe 3rd...

It's hard to say, but It seemed as a general rule that people who were unusually unattractive (50+lbs overweight, really bad complexion, etc.) were far less likely to get biglaw offers than average.

As for URMs, it's a boost but not a trump.