Should I Retake? Poll Added Forum

[Knock]

Numbers:
GPA: 3.8-3.85 (not sure yet sending in final transcript from summer school class)
LSAT: 171
URM 1/2 Mexican-American Male

PT at an average of 176 over the last couple of months, and 175 over 55 full, timed PT's.

Scored a 171 on the June 2010 LSAT, -2 LR -4 LG -4 RC -0 LR.

Average/weak softs, straight from UG. Average PS/DS.

Dream school is Stanford.

I took a timed 4 section PT (June 2007) a few days ago, and scored a 178, going -0 LG -0 LR -1 LR -1 RC, just to gauge where I was at. I did remember some questions though, and this probably helped me score a little bit better (scored 172 on this PT the first time I took it).

So what do you guys think, retake or don't? I need to decide pretty soon so I can start studying if i'm going to retake. Any advice appreciated.

[bk1]

Having personally grappled with this, I feel you on the borderline of whether to retake or not. I think for you there are good reasons for both and that it is not a clear cut decision either way. Since you are aiming for Stanford I would say retake. I don't think having your apps in a month later is going to hurt you that much due to your numbers.

I personally went the other way because I felt that me (being a super-splitter URM) gained more from applying as early as possible than from a shot at a higher LSAT when it was already at or above the 75th for the schools I have a shot at.

[goldeneagle]

Retake not necessary

[094320]

..

[Knock]

Having personally grappled with this, I feel you on the borderline of whether to retake or not. I think for you there are good reasons for both and that it is not a clear cut decision either way. Since you are aiming for Stanford I would say retake. I don't think having your apps in a month later is going to hurt you that much due to your numbers.

I personally went the other way because I felt that me (being a super-splitter URM) gained more from applying as early as possible than from a shot at a higher LSAT when it was already at or above the 75th for the schools I have a shot at.

Yeah, this is such a tough decision lol. I'm in between 25th and 50th for GPA and 50th and 75th for LSAT, but I know Stanford favors GPA. If I had scored say, a 173, I think this decision would have been a lot easier. And I definitely think i'm capable of a 173+ on the retake, but I guess they will average that lol.

Either way i'm trying to get my applications in by Oct. 1st, but realistically I won't get them in until early/mid October anyways, due to LORs.

[Knock]

This is rough because it will delay your application. You'll probably score better on the retake--you seriously underperformed on test day--what happened? What's with missing LG Qs that should normally be in the bag? The retake isn't going to be worth it unless you can vault yourself into the upper 170s---a 173 is going to be a waste of the delay. Even then, Stanford might not value your retake as much as other schools (like Columbia).

A combination of nerves and adrenaline I guess. I have no clue lol, I don't have any excuses except that I just underperformed. I think I have a decent chance of scoring in the upper 170's, probably like a 50/50 based on my PT's. But of course, I honestly did not expect a 171 to come rolling in, so i'm not sure if i'm capable of predicting my score.

[bk1]

Yeah, this is such a tough decision lol. I'm in between 25th and 50th for GPA and 50th and 75th for LSAT, but I know Stanford favors GPA. If I had scored say, a 173, I think this decision would have been a lot easier. And I definitely think i'm capable of a 173+ on the retake, but I guess they will average that lol.

Either way i'm trying to get my applications in by Oct. 1st, but realistically I won't get them in until early/mid October anyways, due to LORs.

If you won't have your apps in until October anyways, I think this makes it pretty clear cut for retake. The few week difference between when it would go complete without a retake isn't enough to justify not giving yourself a shot to push your LSAT over the 75th.

You are definitely capable of a 173+, it will most likely just come down to test day nerves (I also dropped 5 points from my PT average on the June test).

That being said, a retake isn't necessary by any means here. But I think that if you don't mind going through the LSAT again then it is definitely worth shooting for (mainly due to your desire for S).

[clintonius]

I suppose my thought is, if you think you can actually score upper 170s, then do it. I don't think there's too much to worry about if you wind up only picking up a couple extra points over your first score. The delay isn't going to be terrible (it's not like you're considering waiting for the December test).

[Knock]

Yeah, this is such a tough decision lol. I'm in between 25th and 50th for GPA and 50th and 75th for LSAT, but I know Stanford favors GPA. If I had scored say, a 173, I think this decision would have been a lot easier. And I definitely think i'm capable of a 173+ on the retake, but I guess they will average that lol.

Either way i'm trying to get my applications in by Oct. 1st, but realistically I won't get them in until early/mid October anyways, due to LORs.

If you won't have your apps in until October anyways, I think this makes it pretty clear cut for retake. The few week difference between when it would go complete without a retake isn't enough to justify not giving yourself a shot to push your LSAT over the 75th.

You are definitely capable of a 173+, it will most likely just come down to test day nerves (I also dropped 5 points from my PT average on the June test).

That being said, a retake isn't necessary by any means here. But I think that if you don't mind going through the LSAT again then it is definitely worth shooting for (mainly due to your desire for S).

Yeah man. The more I go in this process the more I feel that i'm not a big city kind of guy (at least it's not my preference), and i'm a California guy. Unfortunately, CCN are all huge cities far away from where i'm from and want to practice, so i'm really pigeonholed lol. It makes me nervous tbh. I wouldn't want to chose Berkeley over CCN, so i'm hoping I can pull an acceptance from S somehow.

[Knock]

I suppose my thought is, if you think you can actually score upper 170s, then do it. I don't think there's too much to worry about if you wind up only picking up a couple extra points over your first score. The delay isn't going to be terrible (it's not like you're considering waiting for the December test).

Well, i've got to consider...............What if I go down? I don't think I would, but then again I didn't think I would score a 171.

[094320]

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[Knock]

I suppose my thought is, if you think you can actually score upper 170s, then do it. I don't think there's too much to worry about if you wind up only picking up a couple extra points over your first score. The delay isn't going to be terrible (it's not like you're considering waiting for the December test).

Well, i've got to consider...............What if I go down? I don't think I would, but then again I didn't think I would score a 171.

What was your range? Diagnostic? How quickly did you improve from the diagnostic? etc.

Not completely cold diagnostic, but timed and w/ experimental section (from a Kaplan free administration): 165. I had already been through the LG bible and a couple chapters of the LR bible.

Here is more specific information:

My Practice Tests:
Pt#____Date__________Individual Sections____Raw /Scaled Score_______________Notes___________________
36 -- 02/27/10 ------ -6 LR -3 RC -7 LR -3 LG ------82/165 --- Free Kaplan Test, finished LG bible by exam, 5 sections
19 -- 03/24/10 ---- -2 LG -4 LR -4 RC -2 LR ------- 89/170 ---- most of LR Bible done, rusty on games, 4 sections
20 -- 03/25/10 ----- -4 LR -1 RC -4 LG -2 LR ------- 90/171 ---- missed last 3 on 4th LG due to extremely hard game
21 -- 03/30/10 ----- -4 LG -6 LR -2 LR -3 RC ------ 86/169 ----- 4 sections, felt off, disappointing, first PT to drop
22 -- 03/31/10 ----- -2 RC -4 LR -0 LG -4 LR ------ 91/172 ----- 4 sections, nearly bombed LG, LR dragging me down
23 -- 04/01/10 ----- -6 LG -4 LR -4 LR -4 RC ------ 82/168 ----- ran out of time on LG (2 q's), took at 9pm (noise + tired)
24 -- 04/03/10 ----- -2 RC -3 LR -2 LR -6 LG ------ 88/171 ---- 4 sections, bombed last LG (missed 5/6)
25 -- 04/05/10 ----- -0 RC -2 LR -9 LG -2 LR ------ 88/169 ---- 4 sections, bombed 2nd lg (0/7), hardest LG ever
26 -- 04/07/10 ----- -2 LG -5 LR -5 LR -2 RC ------ 87/170 ---- 4 sections, LR holding me back this time
27 -- 04/08/10 ----- -2 LR -1 LG -4 RC -4 LR ------ 90/174 ---- 4 sections, 5 extra minutes on LG! Artificially high score
28 -- 04/09/10 ----- -3 LR -2 LG -2 LR -0 RC ------ 94/175 ---- untimed on 1st LR section, all else timed, 4 sections
SpA- 04/12/10 ----- -0 LR -2 RC -1 LG -1 LR ------ 97/177 ---- SuperPrep A, untimed LG, 4 sections
SpB- 04/13/10 ----- -5 LR -3 LG -3 RC -0 LR ------ 90/173 ---- SuperPrep B, untimed LG, 4 sections
SpC- 04/14/10 ----- -5 LG -2 LR -1 LR -1 RC ------ 92/174 ---- SuperPrep C, untimed LG, 4 sections
40 -- 04/15/10 ----- -2 LR -1 LG -1 LR -2 RC ------ 95/174 ---- 4 sections, fully timed
43 -- 04/17/10 ----- -1 RC -2 LR -2 LR -0 LG ------ 96/177 ---- 4 sections, fully timed
44 -- 04/19/10 ----- -2 RC -3 LR -1 LG -1 LR ------ 93/173 ---- 4 sections, fully timed
45 -- 04/20/10 ----- -1 LR -0 RC -0 LG -3 LR ------ 95/178 ---- 4 sections, fully timed (did a 5th afterwards from PT41.1)
46 -- 04/21/10 ----- -1 RC -1 LR -0 LR -0 LG ------ 97/179 ---- 5 sections (exp. PT41.2 as 3rd section)
39 -- 04/22/10 ----- -3 LG -3 LR -1 RC -3 LR ------ 91/172 ---- 5 sections (exp. PT41.3 as 3rd section)
42 -- 04/23/10 ----- -2 LG -2 LR -2 RC -1 LR ------ 94/174 ---- 5 sections (exp. PT41.4 as 2nd section)
41 -- 04/20-4/10 --- -3 LR -1 LG -0 LR -4 RC ------ 93/174 ---- used as experimental section for PT's
47 -- 04/27/10 ----- -3 LR -2 RC -1 LR -0 LG ------ 94/174 ----- 5 sections (exp. PT18.1 as 1st section)
48 -- 04/28/10 ----- -1 LR -0 LG -0 RC -1 LR ------ 99/178 ----- 5 sections (exp. PT18.2 as 3rd section) untimed LG
30 -- 04/29/10 ----- -0 LG -1 LR -2 RC -0 LR ------ 98/180 ----- 5 sections, 18.3 as 3rd experimental, re-used q's, e/x RC
31 -- 05/01/10 ----- -1 LG -1 LR -1 LR -6 RC ------ 92/174 ----- 5 sections, 18.4 as 4th experimental
18 -- 05/01/10 ----- -1 LG -4 LR -0 RC -3 LR ------ 93/175 ----- broken up and used as experimental tests
29 -- 05/03/10 ----- -1 LR -2 RC -0 LG -3 LR ------ 95/176 ----- taken in 2 parts, 1st section and then last 3 sections
32 -- 05/04/10 ----- -0 LR -3 RC -0 LG -2 LR ------ 95/177 ----- 5 secions, with 16.1 as 3rd section experimental
33 -- 05/05/10 ----- -0 LR -4 RC -0 LR -1 LG ------ 96/178 ----- 5 sections, with 16.2 as 3rd section experimental
34 -- 05/06/10 ----- -0 RC -1 LR -2 LR -0 LG ------ 98/180 ----- 5 sections, with 16.3 as 3rd section experimental
16 -- 05/07/10 ----- -1 LG -3 LR -1 LR -5 RC ------ 91/173 ----- experimental test
35 -- 05/08/10 ----- -0 LR -2 RC -0 LG -1 LR ------ 98/179 ----- 4 sections due to library closing
49 -- 05/10/10 ----- -0 LG -2 LR -2 RC -2 LR ------ 94/174 ----- 4 sections
50 -- 05/11/10 ----- -3 RC -0 LR -1 LG -3 LR ------ 93/173 ----- 5 sections
12 -- 05/12/10 ----- -2 LR -0 LG -1 RC -2 LR ------ 96/175 ----- 4 sections
51 -- 05/13/10 ----- -0 LR -0 RC -1 LR -0 LG ------ 99/180 ----- 5 sections, w/ 7.2 as 3rd experimental
15 -- 05/15/10 ----- -1 RC -1 LR -2 LR -1 LG ------ 95/174 ----- 5 sections, w/ 7.3 as 3rd experimental
07 -- 05/18/10 ----- -2 LR -0 LG -4 RC -3 LR ------ 92/175 ----- experimental test
52 -- 05/18/10 ----- -1 LR -0 LG -3 LR -1 RC ------ 94/176 ----- 5 sections, w/ 7.4 as 3rd experimental
14 -- 05/19/10 ----- -0 LG -1 LR -1 RC -1 LR ------ 98/178 ----- 5 sections, w/ 9.1 as 3rd experimental
53 -- 05/20/10 ----- -2 LR -0 LG -2 LR -3 RC ------ 93/174 ----- 5 sections, w/ 9.2 as 3rd experimental
13 -- 05/21/10 ----- -0 LG -6 LR -1 RC -0 LR ------ 94/176 ----- 5 sections, w/ 9.3 as 3rd experimental
09 -- 05/25/10 ----- -0 RC -2 LR -1 LG -3 LR ------ 95/177 ----- experimental test
54 -- 05/25/10 ----- -2 RC -0 LR -0 LG -1 LR ------ 98/179 ----- 5 sections, w/ 9.4 as 2nd experimental
J'07 - 05/26/10 ----- -1 LG -0 LR -3 LR -2 RC ------ 94/172 ----- 5 sections, w/ 10.1 as 2nd experimental
55 -- 05/27/10 ----- -1 LR -4 RC -1 LR -0 LG ------ 94/174 ----- 5 sections, w/ 10.2 as 2nd experimental
37 -- 05/28/10 ----- -0 RC -1 LR -0 LG -3 LR ------ 97/177 ----- 5 sections, w/ 10.3 as 1st experimental
10 -- 05/31/10 ----- -0 LR -1 LG -2 RC -2 LR ------ 96/176 ----- experimental test sections
56 -- 05/31/10 ----- -1 LG -1 LR -1 LR -1 RC ------ 96/178 ----- 5 sections, w/ 10.4 as 3rd experimental
57 -- 06/01/10 ----- -1 LG -1 LR -2 LR -2 RC ------ 95/175 ----- 5 sections, w/ 11.1 as 2nd experimental
38 -- 06/02/10 ----- -1 LR -1 LG -1 LR -0 RC ------ 97/179 ----- 5 sections, w/ 11.2 as 1st experimental
58 -- 06/03/10 ----- -1 LR -0 RC -1 LG -0 LR ------ 99/180 ----- 5 sections, w/ 11.3 as 3rd experimental
11 -- 06/04/10 ----- -1 LG -5 LR -0 RC -2 LR ------ 93/173 ----- experimental test
59 -- 06/04/10 ----- -3 LG -4 LR -1 LR -3 RC ------ 90/172 ----- 5 sections, w/ 11.4 as 3rd experimental

[094320]

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[mfeller2]

It sounds like you will score higher if you retake, based on your PTs. And since most schools you are applying to will only take the highest score, you don't have a lot to lose. That being said, if you don't want to deal with the stress/frustration of the LSAT and just apply already I don't blame you (That's what I'm doing). You have great stats and will get into most schools that you apply to.

[Knock]

Ah, nice, I kept a spreadsheet too. That was very helpful in answering my question.

I severely doubt you're going to dip below 171 on your retake. My not supported by hard data opinion is that most ppl who see a dip from their PT average see it either because of A) nerves, B) they didn't quite get it, or had only recently entered into their desired zone. You only have 2 sub170 scores, and both were in the very beginning. Your last chunk(15) or so PTs actually look really similar to mine and my test went favorably in the opposite direction. While I usually caution ppl that their score might go down, I doubt yours will unless you freak out. Figure out how you're going to stay calm on test day, though.

Hmm thanks ATL, you're so helpful . It's not that I didn't stay calm and "freaked out" per se, I think I just kind of rushed to make sure that I absolutely didn't leave any questions blank, and didn't fall behind the pace no matter what, and I just made some dumb mistakes. Especially with the -4 on LG . You're right though, I need to figure out a way to remain relatively relaxed on test day. Maybe going through it once will help.

But anyways, how should I study again? I was planning on taking the last 15-20 PT's or so to shake off the rust from between here and Oct 9th.

[blink]

Do you think it's possible that you burnt out a little sometime after that third-to-last PT? It seems that you hit your peak and then started your decline that continued to test day. I still say retake, but make sure you manage the amount of your review.

[Knock]

It sounds like you will score higher if you retake, based on your PTs. And since most schools you are applying to will only take the highest score, you don't have a lot to lose. That being said, if you don't want to deal with the stress/frustration of the LSAT and just apply already I don't blame you (That's what I'm doing). You have great stats and will get into most schools that you apply to.

Thanks, that has definitely entered my mind. I just don't want to be dinged from Stanford and exiled to the frozen tundra of the east coast and wonder "what if" for 3 years I guess. So I want to make sure I make the right decision...which is hard because I feel kind of borderline. Thanks for the kind words though .

[Knock]

Do you think it's possible that you burnt out a little sometime after that third-to-last PT? It seems that you hit your peak and then started your decline that continued to test day. I still say retake, but make sure you manage the amount of your review.

Yeah, I mean I think that's definitely a possibility. Especially looking back on it now. I had the mentality of burnout is for wussies ( ). I wonder if I did. It's hard to say though.

Edit: I did give myself the weekend completely off before Monday though.

[bk1]

Hmm thanks ATL, you're so helpful . It's not that I didn't stay calm and "freaked out" per se, I think I just kind of rushed to make sure that I absolutely didn't leave any questions blank, and didn't fall behind the pace no matter what, and I just made some dumb mistakes. Especially with the -4 on LG . You're right though, I need to figure out a way to remain relatively relaxed on test day. Maybe going through it once will help.

But anyways, how should I study again? I was planning on taking the last 15-20 PT's or so to shake off the rust from between here and Oct 9th.

Was there a pattern to your mistakes?

If not, that seems like a fine plan. I've heard that it is really easy to pick back up the LSAT by taking some PT's.

And what blink said. It seems like you burned out a bit and that hurt your score (same thing happened to me, I was PT'ing at 175-180 then started to get a few 173-176 scores the week before the test and ended up with a 173). Try to avoid that if you can (whatever anti-burnout method works best for you).

[blink]

Do you think it's possible that you burnt out a little sometime after that third-to-last PT? It seems that you hit your peak and then started your decline that continued to test day. I still say retake, but make sure you manage the amount of your review.

Yeah, I mean I think that's definitely a possibility. Especially looking back on it now. I had the mentality of burnout is for wussies ( ). I wonder if I did. It's hard to say though.

If so, it's really too bad considering you hit your peak days before the real thing. You just missed it. I would imagine that it is difficult to guage when one is about to burnout, but if you studied the last 15 or so tests from now until the test, I bet you could get your score up to your previous highs while preventing any further burnout.

[blink]

Also, in regards to your edit, idk about you, but personally if I burnout on school or something, it takes longer than a couple days to refresh (for me it was a week at the beach lol)

[Knock]

Hmm thanks ATL, you're so helpful . It's not that I didn't stay calm and "freaked out" per se, I think I just kind of rushed to make sure that I absolutely didn't leave any questions blank, and didn't fall behind the pace no matter what, and I just made some dumb mistakes. Especially with the -4 on LG . You're right though, I need to figure out a way to remain relatively relaxed on test day. Maybe going through it once will help.

But anyways, how should I study again? I was planning on taking the last 15-20 PT's or so to shake off the rust from between here and Oct 9th.

Was there a pattern to your mistakes?

If not, that seems like a fine plan. I've heard that it is really easy to pick back up the LSAT by taking some PT's.

And what blink said. It seems like you burned out a bit and that hurt your score (same thing happened to me, I was PT'ing at 175-180 then started to get a few 173-176 scores the week before the test and ended up with a 173). Try to avoid that if you can (whatever anti-burnout method works best for you).

Hmmm, my pattern at first was missing assumption questions. Then when I found out about necessary vs. sufficient assumption questions (Thanks LSAT Blog!), something just clicked and I don't think i've missed one since then, including on the June test. Not really sure if there is a pattern after that, except for my worst scores come when I don't get a -0 on LG. Maybe I should drill some LG. I definitely know that sequencing is my weakness in LG. I'm not a fan of the PS sequencing, I heard Atlas has a better method that is easy to pick up. I might learn that for the Oct. test. RC seems to fluctuate, and i'm usually getting close to the time limit.

What are some ways to not burn out? Just not study that hard? Maybe I should take like 10-15 PT's instead.

[TommyK]

Am I correct in assuming that you haven't taken a practice LSAT in two months? You'll surely be out of practice. It seems like you have a lot to lose, but not that much upside. Even if you get a 175, which is far from a fair assumption when you factor in test-day jitters, you're talking about a realistic increase of two points (once they average). I know that's an important two points, but you could also go the opposite direction.

Will you be counted as a URM? If so, you should be money, right? between the 25 & 75 brackets on both and above the median on the LSAT + URM, should stand a really good shot. I wouldn't want to put myself through the agony of getting back into testing shape only to have it have the possibility of negatively affecting my chances.

[Knock]

Do you think it's possible that you burnt out a little sometime after that third-to-last PT? It seems that you hit your peak and then started your decline that continued to test day. I still say retake, but make sure you manage the amount of your review.

Yeah, I mean I think that's definitely a possibility. Especially looking back on it now. I had the mentality of burnout is for wussies ( ). I wonder if I did. It's hard to say though.

If so, it's really too bad considering you hit your peak days before the real thing. You just missed it. I would imagine that it is difficult to guage when one is about to burnout, but if you studied the last 15 or so tests from now until the test, I bet you could get your score up to your previous highs while preventing any further burnout.

Also, in regards to your edit, idk about you, but personally if I burnout on school or something, it takes longer than a couple days to refresh (for me it was a week at the beach lol)

Yeah man, if burnout was the reason I didn't score well, I definitely did not know it at the time, and couldn't see it coming. I've had a while without studying the LSAT so maybe I will be refreshed.

[bk1]

Am I correct in assuming that you haven't taken a practice LSAT in two months? You'll surely be out of practice. It seems like you have a lot to lose, but not that much upside. Even if you get a 175, which is far from a fair assumption when you factor in test-day jitters, you're talking about a realistic increase of two points (once they average). I know that's an important two points, but you could also go the opposite direction.

Will you be counted as a URM? If so, you should be money, right? between the 25 & 75 brackets on both and above the median on the LSAT + URM, should stand a really good shot. I wouldn't want to put myself through the agony of getting back into testing shape only to have it have the possibility of negatively affecting my chances.

While it may seem like a couple points, I would say there is a very real difference between being in the 50-75 as opposed to being above the 75. Also, will they actually average? I don't see a downside here other than the prep time which seems inconsequential for even a slight boost in chances. The OP is already submitting in October so it is not like the app is getting in September 1 versus October 31.