Bad Freshman Grades? Forum

[fallingup]

I'm going to be a senior at an Ivy this fall and I am on track to graduate with a 3.7. I have a few questions about what to do when applying to law school with a really bad freshman year.

My freshman year wasn't just bad. It was awful. I ended up getting 2 credits the entire year. My first semester, I dropped one class, got Bs in two others, and failed one. My second semester, I dropped all my classes in the middle of the semester and ended up getting psychological help (I got a medical excuse from my university to drop the classes). I got a medical excuse to take my sophomore fall semester off--I got a job and took 2 classes at a different university. Then, my sophomore spring, I returned to my university, and I've been acing classes and doing well ever since. I work a lot (mostly research jobs--I've always had really good jobs) and I'm highly involved on campus. I've taken the LSAT and gotten a 175. I caught up on a lot of the credits I missed, though I still have to take classes for an extra summer and graduate in 4.5 years rather than 4. I plan to apply to law school after I graduate, so I can apply with my full undergrad GPA.

My decent GPA and high LSAT make me feel hopeful, but I'm worried that the red flags on my transcript will scare away all the law schools. I'm not exactly comfortable adding a note about "Oh, I went psycho, that explains everything." It's not like saying I got cancer or my mom died.

My dream schools are Georgetown, UC-Berkeley, and University of Chicago. I'm not trying to go to Harvard or Yale or something. Do you think I'm reaching too high? I have no idea what these law schools expect and what crosses the line.

[mallard]

3.7/175 from an Ivy with a huge upward trend is good enough for CCN. No worries.

[fallingup]

3.7/175 from an Ivy with a huge upward trend is good enough for CCN. No worries.

Thank you. Do you think it is worth explaining the medical reasons for dropping everything? On my transcript, the dropped classes are marked with an M, and the semester off is labeled Medical as well. Is that enough for law schools? Do they automatically assume a medical excuse from a college is valid? I'm going to ask the pre-law advisor at my school for advice (I know I'm not the only one in this boat), but I'm curious to find out what the protocol typically is.

[09042014]

I'm going to be a senior at an Ivy this fall and I am on track to graduate with a 3.7. I have a few questions about what to do when applying to law school with a really bad freshman year.

My freshman year wasn't just bad. It was awful. I ended up getting 2 credits the entire year. My first semester, I dropped one class, got Bs in two others, and failed one. My second semester, I dropped all my classes in the middle of the semester and ended up getting psychological help (I got a medical excuse from my university to drop the classes). I got a medical excuse to take my sophomore fall semester off--I got a job and took 2 classes at a different university. Then, my sophomore spring, I returned to my university, and I've been acing classes and doing well ever since. I work a lot (mostly research jobs--I've always had really good jobs) and I'm highly involved on campus. I've taken the LSAT and gotten a 175. I caught up on a lot of the credits I missed, though I still have to take classes for an extra summer and graduate in 4.5 years rather than 4. I plan to apply to law school after I graduate, so I can apply with my full undergrad GPA.

My decent GPA and high LSAT make me feel hopeful, but I'm worried that the red flags on my transcript will scare away all the law schools. I'm not exactly comfortable adding a note about "Oh, I went psycho, that explains everything." It's not like saying I got cancer or my mom died.


My dream schools are Georgetown, UC-Berkeley, and University of Chicago. I'm not trying to go to Harvard or Yale or something. Do you think I'm reaching too high? I have no idea what these law schools expect and what crosses the line.

You'll get UChi and Gtown, and you got an okay shot at Berkeley. But go to UChi.

Also apply to Columbia and NYU.

[im_blue]

You'll definitely get into Chicago and Georgetown, and maybe Berkeley too if you can write an interesting PS about your background.

[drake]

With a 3.7/175 I think you can aim way higher than Georgetown.

[TCScrutinizer]

If you've hand-nursed baby tigers or something comparable at any point in your life the sky is the limit with those numbers.

[jayn3]

3.7/175 from an Ivy with a huge upward trend is good enough for CCN. No worries.

Thank you. Do you think it is worth explaining the medical reasons for dropping everything? On my transcript, the dropped classes are marked with an M, and the semester off is labeled Medical as well. Is that enough for law schools? Do they automatically assume a medical excuse from a college is valid? I'm going to ask the pre-law advisor at my school for advice (I know I'm not the only one in this boat), but I'm curious to find out what the protocol typically is.

Writing an addendum is probably a good idea. Nothing too long, two paragraphs at most. "I was sick, it hurt my grades, I'm better now and I plan to kick ass at law school."

[king3780]

I'm curious to see what the GPA will be when LSAC gets done with it. Those withdrawals could bring it down a fair amount.

[hv1]

Maybe even consider community college courses in the summer time for an even greater boost in LSAC GPA?

[fallingup]

I'm curious to see what the GPA will be when LSAC gets done with it. Those withdrawals could bring it down a fair amount.

I'm curious about the policy on withdrawals and incompletes. None of my withdrawals involve failure--the class that I dropped freshman year is marked as Withdraw Pass on my transcript. All the classes I withdrew from during my second semester are approved Medical Withdrawals--there's no grade. When I calculated my 3.7, I didn't include any of the courses I withdrew from since they weren't punitive withdrawals. I did include my F and my 2 Bs. I'm starting to think the 2 Bs shouldn't be counted--those are marked as Incompletes on my transcript. What's the policy?

[blurbz]

Interesting. Your medical withdraws will not be counted against you.

Your B's, the ones marked as incomplete will be interesting. The lsac website says that incompletes will be counted if they are considered punitive, but I don't know what they'll do with an Incomplete/B. How did you get a B in a class that was incomplete? My school, I know, will turn any incomplete grades to Fs after one semester has passed with no movement.

[fallingup]

Interesting. Your medical withdraws will not be counted against you.

Your B's, the ones marked as incomplete will be interesting. The lsac website says that incompletes will be counted if they are considered punitive, but I don't know what they'll do with an Incomplete/B. How did you get a B in a class that was incomplete? My school, I know, will turn any incomplete grades to Fs after one semester has passed with no movement.

By the end of first semester, I had withdrawn from one class and not turned in any final work for the 3 others. The university told me that I could submit the final work late for a grade, with the caveat that my transcript would be marked with an I. I submitted late work for 2 courses (the Bs) and didn't submit any late work for the course I got an F in. (I told you I was psycho.)

Here is how my freshman first semester is marked on my transcript:
Course 1: Withdraw Pass
Course 2: B- (Note: I)
Course 3: B+ (Note: I)
Course 4: F (Note: I)

What counts? Does the F even count?

[blurbz]

I honestly have no idea.

I think it could go one of two ways:

1. You will receive the grades indicated on your transcripts (two Bs and an F); or
2. Because they are marked as being incomplete, they will all be counted as failing.

I looked at LSAC's methodology for deciding this sort of thing, but I couldn't find a policy on this unique situation. If I had to guess, though, I would say that option 1 is more likely. For your sake, I hope so!

When are you submitting your transcripts? I want to see how this all plays out!

[vanwinkle]

You should write a very brief addendum to explain what happened with the F and the withdrawal. However, as long as you have an explanation that even halfway makes sense (and it sounds like you do) and you end it with something like "and I've been much better since then, lookit my grades!" (in a more professional tone), you'll be fine.

[fallingup]

I honestly have no idea.

I think it could go one of two ways:

1. You will receive the grades indicated on your transcripts (two Bs and an F); or
2. Because they are marked as being incomplete, they will all be counted as failing.

I looked at LSAC's methodology for deciding this sort of thing, but I couldn't find a policy on this unique situation. If I had to guess, though, I would say that option 1 is more likely. For your sake, I hope so!

When are you submitting your transcripts? I want to see how this all plays out!

This page [http://lsac.org/Policies/transcript-summarization.asp] makes it seem like the Incompletes are not automatically considered Fs. I wish I knew more about how the LSAC decides an Incomplete is punitive or nonpunitive.

[vanwinkle]

I wish I knew more about how the LSAC decides an Incomplete is punitive or nonpunitive.

As far as I'm aware, it's based on whether the school reporting your grades reports it as punitive or nonpunitive. So it'll depend on how your school calculates it, or at least, it should.

[blurbz]

I honestly have no idea.

I think it could go one of two ways:

1. You will receive the grades indicated on your transcripts (two Bs and an F); or
2. Because they are marked as being incomplete, they will all be counted as failing.

I looked at LSAC's methodology for deciding this sort of thing, but I couldn't find a policy on this unique situation. If I had to guess, though, I would say that option 1 is more likely. For your sake, I hope so!

When are you submitting your transcripts? I want to see how this all plays out!

This page [http://lsac.org/Policies/transcript-summarization.asp] makes it seem like the Incompletes are not automatically considered Fs. I wish I knew more about how the LSAC decides an Incomplete is punitive or nonpunitive.

Well this is interesting. I suppose I can add a third choice:

3. None of the grades will count; and a fourth choice

4. The Bs will not count, but the F will.

I add that fourth choice because I know a lot of schools (including my UG) delineate punitive withdrawals/incomplete grades on transcripts with an (F). So a punitive withdrawal or incomplete would say W(F) or I(F)..which sounds like what you have.

How does the school calculate your GPA? Does it include the Bs and the F into your GPA? If it does, I suspect that's what LSAC will do. If it does not....Then LSAC will likely count all three as being punitive.

When are you submitting your transcripts?

[fallingup]

When are you submitting your transcripts? I want to see how this all plays out!

I am applying to law school next fall. So you have a long time to wait!

[blurbz]

Well, good luck!

[fallingup]

Well this is interesting. I suppose I can add a third choice:

3. None of the grades will count; and a fourth choice

4. The Bs will not count, but the F will.

I add that fourth choice because I know a lot of schools (including my UG) delineate punitive withdrawals/incomplete grades on transcripts with an (F). So a punitive withdrawal or incomplete would say W(F) or I(F)..which sounds like what you have.

How does the school calculate your GPA? Does it include the Bs and the F into your GPA? If it does, I suspect that's what LSAC will do. If it does not....Then LSAC will likely count all three as being punitive.

For what it's worth, my school counts all 3 of the grades in its GPA calculation. But now I'm worried that for the LSAC my B's will count as F's

[blurbz]

Sorry to do that to you. I really have no clue--and the only way to find out is to submit your transcripts. For your own peace of mind, it may be worth registering for CAS with LSAC now and submitting your transcripts just to find out where you stand. When you come close to applying, you can update your transcripts. Otherwise, you can call and ask LSAC but I assume they'll tell you that they won't know until you officially submit your records...

Edit: piece =/= peace.

[fallingup]

Sorry to do that to you. I really have no clue--and the only way to find out is to submit your transcripts. For your own piece of mind, it may be worth registering for CAS with LSAC now and submitting your transcripts just to find out where you stand. When you come close to applying, you can update your transcripts. Otherwise, you can call and ask LSAC but I assume they'll tell you that they won't know until you officially submit your records...

That's great advice. Thank you! I'm going to do that, and I'll meet with my pre-law advisor when I get back to school to see how other students like me have fared in the past.