How to Inform Law School About Arrest Forum

[GatorBait09]

Let me preface this by saying read the entire post before you respond.

Two months ago I was arrested for simple battery: touch or strike (first degree misdemeanor) and obstructing justice interfering in the investigation of a misdemeanor hinder/delay communication to LEO (third degree felony). The State dropped the hinder/delay charge and filed charges for the battery and added trespass after warning: structure or conveyance (second degree misdemeanor).

I entered a plea of not guilty to both charges and a request for jury trial. Without going into the ridiculous details of what happened, I didn't do what I am accused of doing and the end result is going to be all charges being dropped. I should clarify: there is no deferred prosecution, no plea deal, nothing. The state attorney took me out to lunch the other day to get my side of the story and has decided not to prosecute (he actually might prosecute her instead).

So my question is, what exactly do I tell my law school? Obviously I know I have to disclose this incident, but what should I expect to give them in terms of paperwork, information, etc.?

Thanks for any help.

[TheTopBloke]

Assuming:
You're not guilty, you won't be convicted. You're not even being prosecuted. What do you have to report? Nothing.

[justonequestion]

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[D. H2Oman]

Let me preface this by saying read the entire post before you respond.

No

[TheTopBloke]

Assuming:
You're not guilty, you won't be convicted. You're not even being prosecuted. What do you have to report? Nothing.

Why do law schools and bar associations ask for everything, including dismissed and declined-to-prosecute cases?

I don't know. Why do you have to provide it just because they ask?

[justonequestion]

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[TheTopBloke]

I don't know. Why do you have to provide it just because they ask?

That's the same question I'm asking over in my thread about Cornell (and NYU, and indirectly, Columbia)'s application violating state laws guarding against asking about dismissed and nol prosequi cases.

No, they have a right to ask, and you have the right to refuse to answer.

[justonequestion]

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[TheTopBloke]

and can they reject you for refusing to answer?
is it lying?
can they find out information to the contrary?

They can reject you for many reasons.

Not answering the question is not lying. Just because someone writes a question on a piece of paper doesn't mean there's a golden rule that requires you to answer that question.

How can they find out information to the contrary?

[cartercl]

OP, read the application for the school you are admitted to, carefully. If it asks you if you have ever been arrested or charged (even if the charges were dismissed) then you have to disclose this incident. You must tell the school that you were arrested, charged and the charges were dropped. Bottom line. You always have an ongoing duty to disclose any changes to character and fitness questions from the time of acceptance until the time you matriculate (probably until graduation, actually).

However, if you could somehow get the prosecutor to write a personal letter on your behalf that would obviously help tremendously. I would have him send this directly to admissions and have them add it to your file (if you can get this).

[GatorBait09]

Assuming:
You're not guilty, you won't be convicted. You're not even being prosecuted. What do you have to report? Nothing.

That's what I initially thought, but my state's Bar Association is going to want to know if I've ever been arrested or charged with any crime, which I have. And after re-reading my school's app I kind of think I'm going to have to tell them:

Have you ever been charged with a violation of law resulting in, or if still pending, that could result in,
deferred prosecution, probation, community service, community control, restitution, monetary fine, a jail
sentence, or revocation or suspension of your driver's license (including traffic violations resulting in a fine
of $200 or more), regardless of plea or whether adjudication of guilt or imposition of sentence was
suspended, deferred, or withheld?

[TheTopBloke]

If it asks you if you have ever been arrested or charged (even if the charges were dismissed)

Say yes, and leave it at that. In the way cartercl asked the question, this would not disclose much and would not be lying.

[GatorBait09]

OP, read the application for the school you are admitted to, carefully. If it asks you if you have ever been arrested or charged (even if the charges were dismissed) then you have to disclose this incident. You must tell the school that you were arrested, charged and the charges were dropped. Bottom line. You always have an ongoing duty to disclose any changes to character and fitness questions from the time of acceptance until the time you matriculate (probably until graduation, actually).

However, if you could somehow get the prosecutor to write a personal letter on your behalf that would obviously help tremendously. I would have him send this directly to admissions and have them add it to your file (if you can get this).

What should I give them in terms of papers regarding what happened?

[TheTopBloke]

Assuming:
You're not guilty, you won't be convicted. You're not even being prosecuted. What do you have to report? Nothing.

That's what I initially thought, but my state's Bar Association is going to want to know if I've ever been arrested or charged with any crime, which I have. And after re-reading my school's app I kind of think I'm going to have to tell them:

Have you ever been charged with a violation of law resulting in, or if still pending, that could result in,
deferred prosecution, probation, community service, community control, restitution, monetary fine, a jail
sentence, or revocation or suspension of your driver's license (including traffic violations resulting in a fine
of $200 or more), regardless of plea or whether adjudication of guilt or imposition of sentence was
suspended, deferred, or withheld?

The answer is, yes.

Alternatively, no comment.

[cartercl]

If it asks you if you have ever been arrested or charged (even if the charges were dismissed)

Say yes, and leave it at that. In the way cartercl asked the question, this would not disclose much and would not be lying.

Yeah, I wish it were that simple TopBloke, but unfortunately it's not. The problem is that the school is almost certainly going to ask OP to explain the incident in detail, with failure to explain the incident in depth being evidence of lack of candor. Not explaining fully will most likely bring up a C&F issue 3 years down the road. Of course, I'm just speculating here, but that's a reasonable expectation.

OP, read the application for the school you are admitted to, carefully. If it asks you if you have ever been arrested or charged (even if the charges were dismissed) then you have to disclose this incident. You must tell the school that you were arrested, charged and the charges were dropped. Bottom line. You always have an ongoing duty to disclose any changes to character and fitness questions from the time of acceptance until the time you matriculate (probably until graduation, actually).

However, if you could somehow get the prosecutor to write a personal letter on your behalf that would obviously help tremendously. I would have him send this directly to admissions and have them add it to your file (if you can get this).

What should I give them in terms of papers regarding what happened?

Absolutely nothing unless it is specifically requested. This is probably one of the best benefits of having members of the legal profession sitting on the admissions committee. Probably more so than anyone else, they understand the fact that the police can and do make mistakes. So you do not want to send in a police report because it's going to definitely portay you in an unfavorable light. Just explain the incident in your own words. Exactly the way it happened to the best of your recollection. Nothing more, nothing less.

Again, if you can get a letter from the prosecutor explaining the mistake then get it. I would definitely call to ask for his/her help since this person already seems to care enough to take you out to dinner and discuss your case with you.

[TheTopBloke]

I agree, a yes might lead to more questions, but don't give them anything unless you have to.

[legalease9]

If it asks you if you have ever been arrested or charged (even if the charges were dismissed)

Say yes, and leave it at that. In the way cartercl asked the question, this would not disclose much and would not be lying.

This will not work. Do not leave it up to the admissions department all the horrible things you might have been arrested for. Explain the situation in detail. Explain everything you did and didn't do, as well as whats going on (i.e. are the charges being dropped etc.) Also keep them updated if and when all charges are dropped. Also try to get the letter from the prosecutor.

In conclusion, disclose disclose disclose! They've got it locked up. You have no rights. You give all your privacy rights up as condition of your application. You can't hide anything. I don't like it either but its the way it is. Get it changed after you are an attorney, don't fight it now.

[legalease9]

I agree, a yes might lead to more questions, but don't give them anything unless you have to.

I don't know why you think its wise to try to fight the admissions committee tooth and nail over every request they make.

Again I'm not saying that the requests are legitimate. But even if you don't get into trouble with the bar (which your advice could very well lead to), you will just piss off the admissions committee. Not a good way to get admitted.

[TheTopBloke]

I agree, a yes might lead to more questions, but don't give them anything unless you have to.

I don't know why you think its wise to try to fight the admissions committee tooth and nail over every request they make.

Again I'm not saying that the requests are legitimate. But even if you don't get into trouble with the bar (which your advice could very well lead to), you will just piss off the admissions committee. Not a good way to get admitted.

The law school has a duty to the bar to ensure that anyone they accept and take huge sums of money from has a strong chance of passing the bar.

It's not fighting tooth and nail at all. They ask a simple question, and they deserve a simple answer. Anything else is unnecessary.

When they respond and ask us to elaborate, then we can decide how to proceed. There is a probability that they do not respond and ask us to elaborate.

I don't see how you can piss off the admissions committee by answering the question succinctly and honestly. And besides, if they can't handle it, it's a school I don't want to attend.

[justonequestion]

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[garrett09]

jesus, OP doesn't need legal advice, he needs law school application advice. no point in arguing about what law schools do or do not have the "right" to do, or how they might find out any information.

i had a few friends with minor run-ins with the law who were applying to law school. everyone they asked (like law school advisors, not random posters on the internet) said the same thing: disclose and explain. from the wording of your question, you definitely have to say "yes." so then explain... and try to get that letter from the prosecutor if you can.

[cartercl]

...ask OP to explain the incident in detail, with failure to explain the incident in depth being evidence of lack of candor.

I know you said that you were just speculating, but please tell the OP how a law school will acquire the information necessary (court records that may be sealed, police records that police departments are prohibited by law from sharing with non-criminal justice agencies and a few other exceptions, etc.) to prove that the OP has indeed failed to explain in depth. In-depth is relative: for the law school to prove that the OP's statement lacks sufficient depth, it'd have to get a court's permission to open the file to compare it against the OP's statement.

To the OP: try to get it sealed or expunged. You should be eligible and in some states, it may be required of courts since everything against you was dismissed.

I understand exactly what you are saying and, yes, this is the only way a school could determine whether he fully disclosed or not. On that point we agree. However, my statement was made in response to TopBloke's statement that OP should disclose nothing at all. In this hypothetical situation, you wouldn't have to know the details to come to the conclusion that an applicant did not explain the incident "in depth" or was not being truthful. All that would matter is that the applicant answered the C&F question in the affirmative, and intentionally failed to follow the directions. In this situation "the thing speaks for itself"; the facts alone would be sufficient for determining a lack of candor.

But of course, as you all have stated, OP has the option (albeit an ill-advised one) of declining to answer this question and taking his chances at slipping past the Bar unscathed. I've read your argument in the Columbia thread and while compelling, it is not exactly "the way of the world" (so to speak) quite yet. Maybe one day, but not now. So while I respect your argument, I think it is reckless of you to advise the OP not to disclose (a statement you may not have made expressly, but one that you have certainly implied).

[justonequestion]

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[cartercl]

TopBloke said that the OP should not disclose more than what is asked for.

TopBloke said:

No, they have a right to ask, and you have the right to refuse to answer.

This equates to disclosing "nothing at all."

Well I don't know what the way of the world is; is it a world where law schools disregard laws?

I won't answer your question the way you would probably like me to, but it is obviously a world where law schools want applicants to disclose information pertaining to their criminal histories. And until that changes, that is "the way of the world (the law school admissions world anyway)."

I said that he should move for a legitimate process. The only thing that I implied was that he should proceed as he sees fit.

I think I provided an accurate characterization of your advice from where I sit. We must agree to disagree on this point.

In another hypothetical situation, what do you think will happen if the the applicant answered in the negative in response to the C&F question? Keep in mind that you already agreed with me on "the only way..."

Yes, I did agree with you. We've already established that. I made no argument against that.

[GatorBait09]

I guess I should clarify some things. I've already been accepted to my law school and had answered the application question with a yes because of a speeding ticket in the excess of $200. My record is currently not sealed or expunged because the case is currently open, although the charges will be dropped within the near future. And as I understand it, even sealed and expunged records are able to be viewed by Bar Associations without a court order (along with medical and educational associations), so eventually the Bar is going to ask me about it.

So I guess I should just tell my school what happened with as little detail as is relevant?