PhD for Patent/IP law? (and other questions) Forum

[jw176]

Hi everyone! I've just recently started considering law school as a serious possibility so I had several questions about the whole thing. About me: I'm a rising junior majoring in Biology at a top 10 undergrad school, and I really hope to attend law school for patent/IP law.

1. I read a thread on College Confidential about biology and chemistry majors needing a PhD to be competitive for IP law jobs, but some current patent lawyers that I know now disagree with that sentiment. So I guess I'm asking, if I want to do patent law, do I need to get a PhD before applying to law school? Personally, I would prefer not having to attend additional graduate school for financial reasons. I'm already going to be leaving undergrad $200,000 under, so I don't know if I'd be able to pay for both a doctorate program AND law school in addition.

2. Also, I've heard that law schools may give some slight leniency on GPA for engineering majors, but would that also apply to science majors like biology? Since my school is a huge pre-med school, I've always been competing with really hardcore pre-med students in my classes, so would B's in classes like Organic Chem and Multivariable Calc be a smidge more acceptable? Maybe?

I'd really appreciate any help. Thank you!

[Leeroy Jenkins]

1. You pretty much need a MS/PhD for biology if you want to do patent law. End of story.

2. If you're paying for a doctorate degree in biology, you're doing it wrong.

3. Biology isn't a hard science. It's considered the joke of all technical degrees. Don't count on getting a boost from LS admissions.

[nit00]

Hi everyone! I've just recently started considering law school as a serious possibility so I had several questions about the whole thing. About me: I'm a rising junior majoring in Biology at a top 10 undergrad school, and I really hope to attend law school for patent/IP law.

1. I read a thread on College Confidential about biology and chemistry majors needing a PhD to be competitive for IP law jobs, but some current patent lawyers that I know now disagree with that sentiment. So I guess I'm asking, if I want to do patent law, do I need to get a PhD before applying to law school? Personally, I would prefer not having to attend additional graduate school for financial reasons. I'm already going to be leaving undergrad $200,000 under, so I don't know if I'd be able to pay for both a doctorate program AND law school in addition.

2. Also, I've heard that law schools may give some slight leniency on GPA for engineering majors, but would that also apply to science majors like biology? Since my school is a huge pre-med school, I've always been competing with really hardcore pre-med students in my classes, so would B's in classes like Organic Chem and Multivariable Calc be a smidge more acceptable? Maybe?

I'd really appreciate any help. Thank you!

You'll need a PhD in Biochemistry, Biomedical Engineering, or some other bio-related science if you want to do biotechnology patent law.

As far as paying for getting a PhD, Leeroy is right. PhD programs in the life sciences pay for your tuition PLUS give you a living stipend. Take the 5 years or so to get your doctorate and make yourself more much more marketable post law school. You may even be able to get out of the PhD program with only having to get one publication if your advisor knows you do not plan on doing a postdoc or staying academics (although, I wouldn't reveal that to them until you are closer to getting done with your thesis).

Edit to add: You'll also want to get some research experience under your belt, if you haven't already, before applying to grad school. If your school offers a co-op program with pharm companies do that, or try to get a job with a research lab at your school.

[yeast master]

As a guy who should be writing his dissertation right now instead of wasting time on this site, the advice I would give is to not do a PhD unless you really enjoy research (get into a lab now if you're not already in one) and your intention is to be a scientist. If patent prosecution is your ultimate calling, do some prerequisites before you graduate and get a masters in electrical engineering, provided you have some interest in the subject. You'll probably have to pay tuition, but it'll only take three years (or is it two?), you'll be in the highest demand patent field, and you'll have a degree that can lead to a nice salary on its own if law school doesn't pan out. A PhD is just such a big time commitment, and it takes a lot of focus and dedication to do well. If you're not really interested in science for its own sake, it can be easy to flounder. Also, a bio PhD on its own is not a real hot commodity on the job market, to say the least, especially compared to an engineering masters. Bottom line: there are easier and better paths to becoming a patent lawyer than going the bio PhD route.

Re: the necessity of the PhD for biotech patent law, it's my understanding that a PhD is a near requirement for patent prosecution jobs, but not so much for patent litigation jobs.

[CrimsonCal]

I've gone through this myself, just finished my PhD in biochemistry, did my undergraduate degree in biochemistry... USPTO registered, working as a patent agent and attending law school in the fall

I pretty much agree with the above statements

If your technical field is electrical engineering / computer science, then a master's degree is more than sufficient (having only a bachelor's in these fields I feel puts you at a disadvantage, esp if you only have your degree in physics... everyone at my firm at least has a master's in EE/CS)

But, for IP in the biosciences, a PhD is pretty much a must at this point since you're competing against other people in the field who all have PhD's as well... plus the technical understanding you attain in your undergraduate degree is pretty cursory

Research experience is a MUST for getting into a good grad program... and you should never have to pay for it (unless you wanted to do a 3yr PhD in England)

BTW, how the hell do you have 200k?! in debt from undergrad? That's INSANE!

[jw176]

Thanks for the responses everyone! And thanks for clearing up the whole doctorate degree thing, I really didn't know much about that. I really do love biology though, and I picked that major against a lot of opposing opinions because of that. I have worked in a few different labs (ranging from plant biology to molecular biology to biogeochemistry) for the past 4 or so years, and I've actually really enjoyed all the research and lab work. So from the sound of it, I think going for a biochem PhD or something would be the best option for me. I'd thought about engineering before, but I don't think I have much interest in going that route. Plus, math and I were never particularly good friends.

BTW, how the hell do you have 200k?! in debt from undergrad? That's INSANE!

Well, tuition plus room/board per year is something like $54,000, and I didn't receive much financial aid. So my parents are paying almost all of it right now, and then I'm paying them back.

[nit00]

If you don't mind living in the middle of nowhere Long Island, I heard Cold Spring Harbor's PhD program has a 4 year term on getting your degree.

[geist]

If one was in a position similar to the OP and they were interested in pursuing a MS in EE, would it be plausible to pursue a JD/MS program as opposed to attempting the MS first? Or would the possibility of not gaining admission to a graduate school for the desired MS be too great of a risk to consider this a feasible option?

[CrimsonCal]

admissions criteria for MS degrees are not *that* rigorous - so as long as you have a decent undergraduate GPA and GRE score, it should be fine

that being said, I'm not sure how feasible it is to do a dual degree (JD) at the same school since the topics are so unrelated (and generally, science/engineering faculties look down upon tangential pursuits)

For instance, I know if someone is applying to a Bio PhD program and says they want to use it do patent law...that pretty much is the kiss of death for your application.... at least at a top research university

[nit00]

For instance, I know if someone is applying to a Bio PhD program and says they want to use it do patent law...that pretty much is the kiss of death for your application.... at least at a top research university

I fully agree with this. I would definitely keep your interest in leaving academia on the DL until you are ready to defend.

Also, out of curiosity, is it feasible to go from getting your BS in Biology to getting an MSEE? Wouldn't you need a BS in EE or another type of engineering to understand the material?

[geist]

For instance, I know if someone is applying to a Bio PhD program and says they want to use it do patent law...that pretty much is the kiss of death for your application.... at least at a top research university

I fully agree with this. I would definitely keep your interest in leaving academia on the DL until you are ready to defend.

Also, out of curiosity, is it feasible to go from getting your BS in Biology to getting an MSEE? Wouldn't you need a BS in EE or another type of engineering to understand the material?

I believe it is possible, I know of a patent attorney that works with a B.S. in life sciences but gained admission to a MSEE program. A B.S. in the field may not be required for admission but it would make sense if they required that you complete certain core classes for the discipline before starting any of your M.S. work. Also, I do not believe doing the switch cold turkey is plausible unless you have an intense personal interest in the field or relevant work experience.

[merichard87]

i agree/disagree with the other posters. i agree that you will need an advanced degree but i think a masters in something bio related plus some work experience in a research lab maybe would do the trick. it would also give you some income to start paying off your parents.

[Kiersten1985]

I work on a number of IP cases at my firm and the only one who has any sort of advanced degree in the field is our special counsel. The two partners and three associates only have JD's. If you need more expertise, you hire an outside expert.

So, unless you just want to do IP consulting work, you DO NOT need the degree.

[ArthurEdens]

1. You pretty much need a MS/PhD for biology if you want to do patent law. End of story.

2. If you're paying for a doctorate degree in biology, you're doing it wrong.

3. Biology isn't a hard science. It's considered the joke of all technical degrees. Don't count on getting a boost from LS admissions.

1. Yep. Maybe not in the past, but the competition now is much greater.

2. No kidding. A decent grad program (PhD) in applied life sciences should PAY you $25k/yr.

3. Wow, not true. You obviously weren't a pre-med. The wash out rate for my undergrad major was the highest on campus (higher than engineering, which I'm assuming you majored in based on your conceit). Entry level bio classes are easy, but the upper level specialized courses can be brutal when you're up against of hardcore, gunner pre-meds.

That being said, I agree in a sense. You would want your grad degree to be applied in a concentration pertinent to patent law (e.g. pharmacology, biochem, etc.). Obviously you have to look at what is getting patented and find a suitable field of study.

[MLS2JD]

3. Biology isn't a hard science. It's considered the joke of all technical degrees. Don't count on getting a boost from LS admissions.

This is obviously coming from someone that knows nothing about upper level Biology courses. Just because it is less suitable than engineering when it comes to patent law, doesn't mean that the degree is a "joke."

Leeroy Jenkins: When you ace Comparative Anatomy, Immunohematology, Histology, and knock out a minor in Chemistry, which most biological science majors do, then you can come on here and bash the degree. Besides, many Biology majors obtain their degree in a particular concentration, which can prove to be quite difficult (i.e. Premed, Molecular Biology, Microbiology, etc). I'm not discrediting a true degree in engineering by any means. However, your third statement not only came across as misinformed, it also seemed like nothing more than a pompous opinion. Have you taken a look at some of the programs in Engineering Technology? Many of them only require 3 hours of single variable calculus. That said, your first two statements seem legit, from what I’ve read on this forum.

[crEEp]

How does it work for people who are almost done with law school who hate law and would rather go back and get a Ph.D. in electrical engineering? Would they be competitive at the top research schools?

[androstan]

Duke has a dual JD/MS-biomedical engineering program. They may require you take some prerequesites that you may not have gotten in a biological curriculum, like differential equations, linear algebra, engineering fundamentals, etc. That would be you best bet, though, if you can score 17x on the LSAT and have a strong UGPA.