168 & 3.85 shutout of T14 : BU, WUSTL, UCLA, or RETAKE? Forum

[342848386278]

This cycle has been much more harsh than I anticipated . Could really use some TLS wisdom deciding whether to bite the bullet, or give it another shot. Interested in international and human rights law (GLBT rights advocacy) and would be happy practicing in New England or a major city on the coasts (but not in the South or Midwest).

I took the LSAT last June after about two months of non-intensive studying (spent maybe an hour a day doing logic games and practice tests, but not an extreme effort). Don't have stellar softs, but did have a research grant doing work directly related to my desire to study law, maintained a 3.85 (ivy undergrad), and worked/traveled a fair amount internationally. I applied late in the cycle (mid to late January), which I think really hurt me.

Options are as follows :

BU - offered a decent 60k total scholarship. Boston's ok (but not awesome), and I'm really interested in their joint degree program with the Sorbonne which would allow for a dual American/French jd in 3 years.

WUSTL - offered a huge 114k total scholarship. Again, have heard good things, but have NO interest in practicing in the midwest and am wary of their placement abilities on either coast or New England. Also interested in their international law program culminating in a semester at Utrecht.

UCLA - no scholly. The Williams Institute on Sexuality & Public Policy would be an awesome resource... but with the Californian economy in shambles and out of state sticker above 50k without factoring in living expenses, I'm worried this would leave me with few job prospects and a terrifying amount of debt. Also, I hate driving, so LA has little appeal aside from the weather.

RETAKE AND REAPPLY - I'm currently teaching in France and have a chance (though not a sure shot) to renew my contract for next year. If I can secure the job I have to return to France by late September, so the October LSAT isn't possible but I could conceivably get back to the states in time for the June LSAT (meaning I would need to start studying immediately). Assuming I don't bomb and can at least get my LSAT up to 170, I could get my apps in by November and hopefully crack the T14 next fall.


So... what does everyone think? I know having money at BU and WUSTL is a great opportunity, but I still feel really let down by the T14 lockout and can't help thinking my prospects would be better had I just gotten my apps in earlier.

[Flanker1067]

Sounds like you really want T14, and that you can up the LSAT. On top of this, if you are having fun working in France, then don't worry about it. Study hard, do better, come back, profit from taking the extra year when the economy is better (big IF of course).

Add: So you know, I am against waiting 90% of the time, I am just saying, if I had a cool overseas job anyhow and I was that close to getting into the schools I really wanted to, I would wait.

[romothesavior]

I voted for BU since you sound like you are dead set on the east coast.

However... I think if you spent some time in the midwest you would really grow to like it. I can't tell you how many of my friends have gone out to the east coast and come back here because they couldn't stand it. I really love this area of the country and I have no real desire to leave. I'm attending Wash U in the fall and I couldn't be more excited about St. Louis or the school.

I think if you weren't so dead set on the east coast, WUSTL would be a no-brainer, but given that you really want to end up back there, I think BU is your best bet (better name recognition, networking opportunities, etc.)

[romothesavior]

P.S. You aren't on like a waitlist at a T14 or anything? I can't believe you got shut out of G'town and especially Cornell with those numbers.

[najumobi]

This cycle has been much more harsh than I anticipated . Could really use some TLS wisdom deciding whether to bite the bullet, or give it another shot. Interested in international and human rights law (GLBT rights advocacy) and would be happy practicing in New England or a major city on the coasts (but not in the South or Midwest).

I took the LSAT last June after about two months of non-intensive studying (spent maybe an hour a day doing logic games and practice tests, but not an extreme effort). Don't have stellar softs, but did have a research grant doing work directly related to my desire to study law, maintained a 3.85 (ivy undergrad), and worked/traveled a fair amount internationally. I applied late in the cycle (mid to late January), which I think really hurt me.

Options are as follows :

BU - offered a decent 60k total scholarship. Boston's ok (but not awesome), and I'm really interested in their joint degree program with the Sorbonne which would allow for a dual American/French jd in 3 years.

WUSTL - offered a huge 114k total scholarship. Again, have heard good things, but have NO interest in practicing in the midwest and am wary of their placement abilities on either coast or New England. Also interested in their international law program culminating in a semester at Utrecht.

UCLA - no scholly. The Williams Institute on Sexuality & Public Policy would be an awesome resource... but with the Californian economy in shambles and out of state sticker above 50k without factoring in living expenses, I'm worried this would leave me with few job prospects and a terrifying amount of debt. Also, I hate driving, so LA has little appeal aside from the weather.

RETAKE AND REAPPLY - I'm currently teaching in France and have a chance (though not a sure shot) to renew my contract for next year. If I can secure the job I have to return to France by late September, so the October LSAT isn't possible but I could conceivably get back to the states in time for the June LSAT (meaning I would need to start studying immediately). Assuming I don't bomb and can at least get my LSAT up to 170, I could get my apps in by November and hopefully crack the T14 next fall.


So... what does everyone think? I know having money at BU and WUSTL is a great opportunity, but I still feel really let down by the T14 lockout and can't help thinking my prospects would be better had I just gotten my apps in earlier.

you really don't have to retake. just apply early and you should get into michigan, cornell, and georgetown.

EDIT: actually michigan and georgetown are more like targets for you (50/50 chance). you should get into cornell though if you apply early with the stats you have now. if you retake and get at least a 171 you'd be almost a lock for a CCN school.

[danr2040]

Retake in June and reapply as early as possible next year. You can get a hell of a lot more out of that GPA if you get a 170 or higher, which requires answering just a couple more questions right. Applying very early will improve your chances even more.

Even if you don't retake or your retake doesn't go well, you have a good shot at UVA if you apply early decision and they are still shooting for a 3.85 median next year.

[342848386278]

...I think if you spent some time in the midwest you would really grow to like it. I can't tell you how many of my friends have gone out to the east coast and come back here because they couldn't stand it.

As a gay guy born and raised in Oklahoma, trust me, I've seen enough for the time being . I'd much rather be in a pedestrian friendly city with mass transit and a less conservative culture ; Chicago certainly qualifies, but it's the only non coast city that comes to mind.

P.S. You aren't on like a waitlist at a T14 or anything? I can't believe you got shut out of G'town and especially Cornell with those numbers.

Forgot to mention : currently riding WLs at Duke, Penn, Georgetown (PWL), and UVA, but given how WL-happy schools seem to be this year, I'm not banking on getting off of any of them. Also still haven't heard from NYU, Texas (though I'm assuming WLs or rejects this late in the cycle) or Cornell (again, no clue what will happen there, but I probably won't know until June anyway ).

You can see my full cycle at http://lawschoolnumbers.com/342848386278

[sullidop]

You are aware that you can take the LSAT in Europe right?

http://www.lsac.org/pdfs/TestCenterCode ... Canada.pdf

[342848386278]

You are aware that you can take the LSAT in Europe right?

http://www.lsac.org/pdfs/TestCenterCode ... Canada.pdf

[strike]Last I checked, the only French date was in December which would negate the effect of applying early anyhow.[/strike] Nevermind, I'm dumb, I could take it in October in Paris as well if the June retake bombs.

[sullidop]

You are aware that you can take the LSAT in Europe right?

http://www.lsac.org/pdfs/TestCenterCode ... Canada.pdf

Last I checked, the only French date was in December which would negate the effect of applying early anyhow.

Nope, France has J O D next to it's location. June, October, and December...no February.

Edited for above:

Correcto

[sullidop]

You are aware that you can take the LSAT in Europe right?

http://www.lsac.org/pdfs/TestCenterCode ... Canada.pdf

[strike]Last I checked, the only French date was in December which would negate the effect of applying early anyhow.[/strike] Nevermind, I'm dumb, I could take it in October in Paris as well if the June retake bombs.

LSAT in Paris...how romantic.

[romothesavior]

...I think if you spent some time in the midwest you would really grow to like it. I can't tell you how many of my friends have gone out to the east coast and come back here because they couldn't stand it.

As a gay guy born and raised in Oklahoma, trust me, I've seen enough for the time being . I'd much rather be in a pedestrian friendly city with mass transit and a less conservative culture ; Chicago certainly qualifies, but it's the only non coast city that comes to mind.

P.S. You aren't on like a waitlist at a T14 or anything? I can't believe you got shut out of G'town and especially Cornell with those numbers.

Forgot to mention : currently riding WLs at Duke, Penn, Georgetown (PWL), and UVA, but given how WL-happy schools seem to be this year, I'm not banking on getting off of any of them. Also still haven't heard from NYU, Texas (though I'm assuming WLs or rejects this late in the cycle) or Cornell (again, no clue what will happen there, but I probably won't know until June anyway ).

You can see my full cycle at http://lawschoolnumbers.com/342848386278

Oklahoma is NOT the midwest, at least not in the eyes of the vast majority of midwesterners. OK is a weird breed, and I don't even know how I would categorize it. I guess it is in the midwest, but it definitely has none of the traits of a what I would consider a "true" midwestern area. I don't associate with OK in the way that I associate with Indiana, Missouri, Iowa, Minnesota, Wisconsin, etc. Even the "industrial midwest" like Ohio seems more midwestern than Oklahoma. I promise you that you won't see any cowboy boots where I'm at. And its generally very gay friendly around here, especially among the younger crowd. (The farming communities may feel differently, but I don't imagine you'll spend much time around them anyway).

I wouldn't be surprised at all if you get an acceptance from Cornell. I got in with slightly lower numbers than you. Granted, I applied early action back in October, but I still think you have a shot at getting in.

[vanwinkle]

Oklahoma is NOT the midwest, at least not in the eyes of the vast majority of midwesterners. OK is a weird breed, and I don't even know how I would categorize it.

Two words: "Bible Belt".

[quickquestionthanks]

Perhaps it was something else in your application. Your numbers look strong. Also, I wouldn't retake unless you're hitting 172-173 consistently in PTs.

[najumobi]

Oklahoma is NOT the midwest, at least not in the eyes of the vast majority of midwesterners. OK is a weird breed, and I don't even know how I would categorize it.

Two words: "Bible Belt".

+1, oklahoma is usually considered part of the south or southwest.

[Stephanie13]

Oklahoma is NOT the midwest, at least not in the eyes of the vast majority of midwesterners. OK is a weird breed, and I don't even know how I would categorize it.

Two words: "Bible Belt".

+1, oklahoma is usually considered part of the south, and sometimes considered to be part of the southwest.

For some reason I just assumed that all of the midwest was super bible belt-y. Minus Chicago of course.

[ArthurEdens]

Did you underperform on the LSAT? If you think that a 170+ is likely, then it might be wise to wait a year. With a 170, 3.85, I would expect excellent money in the lower half of the T14. Somehow get into the mid 170s and almost everywhere is in reach.

If you hate the thought of waiting a year, then I vote for BU. It affords you the career options that you appear to desire (strong in New England with a major French component). Getting a 169+ is no sure thing, either, since you will apparently only have one crack at it.

[najumobi]

Oklahoma is NOT the midwest, at least not in the eyes of the vast majority of midwesterners. OK is a weird breed, and I don't even know how I would categorize it.

Two words: "Bible Belt".

+1, oklahoma is usually considered part of the south, and sometimes considered to be part of the southwest.

For some reason I just assumed that all of the midwest was super bible belt-y. Minus Chicago of course.

i think the only midwestern state that is truly considered part of the bible belt is missouri, which is sometimes, though rarely, considered part of the south.

[NU_Jet55]

Two words: "Bible Belt".

+1, oklahoma is usually considered part of the south, and sometimes considered to be part of the southwest.

For some reason I just assumed that all of the midwest was super bible belt-y. Minus Chicago of course.

i think the only midwestern state that is truly considered part of the bible belt is missouri, which is sometimes, though rarely, considered part of the south.

Kansas? Iowa? could go on...

[342848386278]

...i think the only midwestern state that is truly considered part of the bible belt is missouri, which is sometimes, though rarely, considered part of the south.

Missouri is Midwest? I always wrote that off as South... but then again, everyone I ever knew in Oklahoma considered themselves Midwestern, so my whole world-view seems a bit skewed

Back on topic though - do I really need to hit at least 172 to make a retake worthwhile, or would a 170 suffice? I'm assuming I need to do *something* before I reapply so that I'm not throwing a nearly identical app back at the schools if I reapply next fall, and a retake seems the most feasible way to change things. Also, what happens if I retake and end up with a 168 again? Will my chances still be upped by applying earlier, or would it be a wash?

For those voting UCLA - care to give an argument in favor?

[quickquestionthanks]

Oklahoma is NOT the midwest, at least not in the eyes of the vast majority of midwesterners. OK is a weird breed, and I don't even know how I would categorize it.

Two words: "Bible Belt".

+1, oklahoma is usually considered part of the south or southwest.

OK is never considered part of the southwest. Never. Not in a million years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma

According to the Wik, it's part of South Central.

do I really need to hit at least 172 to make a retake worthwhile, or would a 170 suffice?

Well I said consistently 172+ because then the difference is several questions. But the difference between 170 and 168 is two questions. Maybe three. The LSAT is a dogfight and shit can happen. Go look at the Testmaster founder Robin's score history. He hit 178-180 several times and then one day came back with a 174. I have two friends who were hitting low 170s in their PTs and came back with a 167 and 168.

All I'm saying is you should be doing consistently higher in your PTs before you peg your chances on that. I will reiterate that your PS might not have been so hot.

[Borachio05]

You might want to just weather the storm a bit longer before making any big decisions. I really have a hard time seeing you get completely shut out of the T14 with those numbers.

That being said, unless you're in a huge hurry to get your JD, waiting a year and applying early next time around isn't a bad idea.

[Borachio05]

Oklahoma is NOT the midwest, at least not in the eyes of the vast majority of midwesterners. OK is a weird breed, and I don't even know how I would categorize it.

Two words: "Bible Belt".

+1, oklahoma is usually considered part of the south or southwest.

OK is never considered part of the southwest. Never. Not in a million years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma

According to the Wik, it's part of South Central.

do I really need to hit at least 172 to make a retake worthwhile, or would a 170 suffice?

Well I said consistently 172+ because then the difference is several questions. But the difference between 170 and 168 is two questions. Maybe three. The LSAT is a dogfight and shit can happen. Go look at the Testmaster founder Robin's score history. He hit 178-180 several times and then one day came back with a 174. I have two friends who were hitting low 170s in their PTs and came back with a 167 and 168.

All I'm saying is you should be doing consistently higher in your PTs before you peg your chances on that. I will reiterate that your PS might not have been so hot.

Nobody likes Oklahoma. They're the United States equivalent to Cooley law.

[bigchris1313]

For those voting UCLA - care to give an argument in favor?

I didn't vote for the UCLA option, but I imagine the argument goes something like this:

1. Go to UCLA
2. Find employment in LA BigLaw
3. ???
4. PROFIT!!!

[quickquestionthanks]

Nobody likes Oklahoma. They're the United States equivalent to Cooley law.

Agreed. They stole the Sonics.