Even worth trying this cycle? Forum

[09042014]

Good luck on those interviews.

[BriaTharen]

Every EE I know who is graduating from college this year plans on going to law school.

I know it's anecdotal, but this is either a freakish coincidence or very bad news for future EE IPers.

How many do you know? I don't know any from my class who did, but I graduated two years ago.

5 or 6. Most of them contacted me just to see if going to law school was worth it. I, of course, responded with a resounding 'NO.'

How challenging is law school compared to EE?

To everyone, does anyone know on what factors patent firms hire on? I've heard tons of conflicting information. Some say its almost entirely work experience, some say its undergrad transcript, some says its almost like regular law hiring.

If its based on undergrad transcript, lets just say I'm fucked and probably should look towards Big Law instead.

From my understanding, EE is an excellent preparation for the rigors of law school; we are certainly no strangers to long, intense study sessions. The main challenge for us will be a complete change of thinking- going from black and white answers to a whole bunch of grey matter.

As for hiring on UG GPA, I really hope that that isn't the deciding factor. If it is... dang it.

[BriaTharen]

They know that thermodynamics is a bitch and that controls systems is one of the most off the wall fucking classes in existence (screw you root locus)

+1000000000000000000

Damn you Control Systems

[CE2JD]

A EE background will certainly help your work ethic in law school, but the overall thought process used in law school is completely different from that used in engineering school.

[zreinhar]

As for hiring on UG GPA, I really hope that that isn't the deciding factor. If it is... dang it.

basically what I gathered from others was that if you recall all the Lit classes you took during your undergrad where you BS'ed the hell out of them making up the most off the wall shit and connecting it to a situation, its like that. But harder. Basically work on reading dense material beforehand and actually reading it, bot just looking at it for 15 pages and saying you read it. I for one, will be investing a lot of money in what I call my "pre-law" education. Ill be taking a law preview course, reading through LEEWS. Speaking alot with 2Ls about suggestions and Im considering looking up a high ranked 2L and paying him to tell me his ways. i figure if Im paying 200k for a degree (which you round to a quarter of a million), then if I throw the kid $500 to up my rank a hundred spots its worth it. Not to mention the fact that transferring, albeit taboo, works wonders for law school. For those reading this thread please check out this site

intelproplaw.com (not a spam, its where I learned the most about IP Law)

And for the engineers who end up at shitty schools but are smarter than their app shows and have a high rank after their first year (or even first semester in some EA cases)

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/transferapps/

Note that you will need to create a login for that one...

[BriaTharen]

As for hiring on UG GPA, I really hope that that isn't the deciding factor. If it is... dang it.

basically what I gathered from others was that if you recall all the Lit classes you took during your undergrad where you BS'ed the hell out of them making up the most off the wall shit and connecting it to a situation, its like that. But harder. Basically work on reading dense material beforehand and actually reading it, bot just looking at it for 15 pages and saying you read it. I for one, will be investing a lot of money in what I call my "pre-law" education. Ill be taking a law preview course, reading through LEEWS. Speaking alot with 2Ls about suggestions and Im considering looking up a high ranked 2L and paying him to tell me his ways. i figure if Im paying 200k for a degree (which you round to a quarter of a million), then if I throw the kid $500 to up my rank a hundred spots its worth it. Not to mention the fact that transferring, albeit taboo, works wonders for law school. For those reading this thread please check out this site

intelproplaw.com (not a spam, its where I learned the most about IP Law)

And for the engineers who end up at shitty schools but are smarter than their app shows and have a high rank after their first year (or even first semester in some EA cases)

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/transferapps/

Note that you will need to create a login for that one...

I'm with you. Just started the PLS method- 8 month calendar.

[zreinhar]

As for hiring on UG GPA, I really hope that that isn't the deciding factor. If it is... dang it.

basically what I gathered from others was that if you recall all the Lit classes you took during your undergrad where you BS'ed the hell out of them making up the most off the wall shit and connecting it to a situation, its like that. But harder. Basically work on reading dense material beforehand and actually reading it, bot just looking at it for 15 pages and saying you read it. I for one, will be investing a lot of money in what I call my "pre-law" education. Ill be taking a law preview course, reading through LEEWS. Speaking alot with 2Ls about suggestions and Im considering looking up a high ranked 2L and paying him to tell me his ways. i figure if Im paying 200k for a degree (which you round to a quarter of a million), then if I throw the kid $500 to up my rank a hundred spots its worth it. Not to mention the fact that transferring, albeit taboo, works wonders for law school. For those reading this thread please check out this site

intelproplaw.com (not a spam, its where I learned the most about IP Law)

And for the engineers who end up at shitty schools but are smarter than their app shows and have a high rank after their first year (or even first semester in some EA cases)

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/transferapps/

Note that you will need to create a login for that one...

I'm with you. Just started the PLS method- 8 month calendar.

What the hell is that and where can I find out about it?

[BriaTharen]

Planet Law School 2 by Atticus Falcon

Be warned:
#1- It is intense and demanding.
#2- There is a lot of controversy surrounding this method. Some people claim that you will get burnt out on law before you even go to LS, while others praise it. Since I'm coming from a field where I get NO exposure to law stuff (Most of my classmates have no idea what a tort is), I figure the more info I get, the better.

You can get it at your local bookstore. He's going to tell you to buy about $500 worth of books, but you can get most of them on eBay/Half.com for less (editions don't matter).

EDIT: Falcon also spends a good bit of time whining about the backward thinking of law school. But if you can separate the good from the bitching, there are some gems in the book.

[ughOSU]

A EE background will certainly help your work ethic in law school, but the overall thought process used in law school is completely different from that used in engineering school.

This. When I was in UG I switched from mech e to history mainly because I was sick of the rigidity of the program. I had a 3.8 in mech e classes, had a 98% average in thermodynamics, and got lower grades in history (yes, I did go to a good engineering school). I think engineers have a tendency to overestimate their ability to figure things out (this is an asset in many circumstances).

This is not a judgement on anyone, just something I personally experienced that you may want to be aware of.

[zreinhar]

yeah I jut did some self research on PLS. I think Im gonng go with GTM, LEEWS some E&Es and maybe one other thing, already read LSC two times. I am also OCD and have an addicitive personality so shit like this helps me sleep... anyways.. As far as the engineering thing about us thinking we are smarter than we really are, I wholeheartedly agree. Especially since Eng. UG has no bearing on LS abilities, while Pol Sci is better at preparing students for what they will actually be doing in law school. And I do agree with the though process being very different. Thats why im doing my aforementioned "pre-law" education... that and hoping that brute force will be enough to get me near the top of the class.... I feel like a gunner already...GSU watch out!

[englawyer]

yeah I jut did some self research on PLS. I think Im gonng go with GTM, LEEWS some E&Es and maybe one other thing, already read LSC two times. I am also OCD and have an addicitive personality so shit like this helps me sleep... anyways.. As far as the engineering thing about us thinking we are smarter than we really are, I wholeheartedly agree. Especially since Eng. UG has no bearing on LS abilities, while Pol Sci is better at preparing students for what they will actually be doing in law school. And I do agree with the though process being very different. Thats why im doing my aforementioned "pre-law" education... that and hoping that brute force will be enough to get me near the top of the class.... I feel like a gunner already...GSU watch out!

i think this depends on your thinking style. for me, much to the dismay of my classmates/friends, i solved engineering hw/tests like they were logic games. rather than think of the physics/mechanics of a system, narrow it down into n equations, n unknowns and solve w/ a matrix. I don't think i developed much of a physical intuition but I got a nice gpa.

i found engineering to be very logical and thus a great prep for the LSAT and hopefully at least some aspects of law school. i also think the focus on practical/concise writing is helpful.

[ughOSU]

yeah I jut did some self research on PLS. I think Im gonng go with GTM, LEEWS some E&Es and maybe one other thing, already read LSC two times. I am also OCD and have an addicitive personality so shit like this helps me sleep... anyways.. As far as the engineering thing about us thinking we are smarter than we really are, I wholeheartedly agree. Especially since Eng. UG has no bearing on LS abilities, while Pol Sci is better at preparing students for what they will actually be doing in law school. And I do agree with the though process being very different. Thats why im doing my aforementioned "pre-law" education... that and hoping that brute force will be enough to get me near the top of the class.... I feel like a gunner already...GSU watch out!

yea I mean IMO it's a good thing as long as you're aware of it. Good luck!

[ughOSU]

i found engineering to be very logical and thus a great prep for the LSAT and hopefully at least some aspects of law school. i also think the focus on practical/concise writing is helpful.

And it leaves you woefully unprepared for many aspects of law school. If you're an intelligent and logical person you may be able to figure those out though. However, don't be surprised when some liberal arts major rips you a new asshole on every exam after doing little more than reading over the material. I am sure there will be at least one of those people.

[BriaTharen]

i found engineering to be very logical and thus a great prep for the LSAT and hopefully at least some aspects of law school. i also think the focus on practical/concise writing is helpful.

And it leaves you woefully unprepared for many aspects of law school. If you're an intelligent and logical person you may be able to figure those out though. However, don't be surprised when some liberal arts major rips you a new asshole on every exam after doing little more than reading over the material. I am sure there will be at least one of those people.

There's always someone who is just a "natural." But 98% of the time, good grades are the product of hard work. Hard work and long hours studying at time unclear material is old hat after four years. I think engineers have far more to worry about when it comes to writing skills than ability to understand and learn the material, since we don't do much more than technical writing.

[ughOSU]

i found engineering to be very logical and thus a great prep for the LSAT and hopefully at least some aspects of law school. i also think the focus on practical/concise writing is helpful.

And it leaves you woefully unprepared for many aspects of law school. If you're an intelligent and logical person you may be able to figure those out though. However, don't be surprised when some liberal arts major rips you a new asshole on every exam after doing little more than reading over the material. I am sure there will be at least one of those people.

There's always someone who is just a "natural." But 98% of the time, good grades are the product of hard work. Hard work and long hours studying at time unclear material is old hat after four years. I think engineers have far more to worry about when it comes to writing skills than ability to understand and learn the material, since we don't do much more than technical writing.

This is the exact attitude I expect engineers to have, and it makes you guys and gals great at what you do. You're right about the "naturals", however be warned that grading in non-engineering/math/science courses is extremely subjective. It is quite possible that a poli-sci slacker in college will out-do hard workers on tests because the professor likes the way he presents his arguments more. I think on balance you guys still win out bc you'll be able to get jobs upon graduation, but in non-technical classes, grades are surprisingly subjective. You say "98% of the time, good grades are the product of hard work"... I think this number is much lower in non-technical courses.

But alas, I am only a 0L so I will shut up about it.

[BriaTharen]

i found engineering to be very logical and thus a great prep for the LSAT and hopefully at least some aspects of law school. i also think the focus on practical/concise writing is helpful.

And it leaves you woefully unprepared for many aspects of law school. If you're an intelligent and logical person you may be able to figure those out though. However, don't be surprised when some liberal arts major rips you a new asshole on every exam after doing little more than reading over the material. I am sure there will be at least one of those people.

There's always someone who is just a "natural." But 98% of the time, good grades are the product of hard work. Hard work and long hours studying at time unclear material is old hat after four years. I think engineers have far more to worry about when it comes to writing skills than ability to understand and learn the material, since we don't do much more than technical writing.

This is the exact attitude I expect engineers to have, and it makes you guys and gals great at what you do. You're right about the "naturals", however be warned that grading in non-engineering/math/science courses is extremely subjective. It is quite possible that a poli-sci slacker in college will out-do hard workers on tests because the professor likes the way he presents his arguments more. I think on balance you guys still win out bc you'll be able to get jobs upon graduation, but in non-technical classes, grades are surprisingly subjective. You say "98% of the time, good grades are the product of hard work"... I think this number is much lower in non-technical courses.

But alas, I am only a 0L so I will shut up about it.

All valid points, but keep in mind that to graduate, engineerings/maths/sciences did have to take Humanities and Social Science classes. I won't speak for everyone, but for the most part- we know what we are getting into

[jackgrf]

Every EE I know who is graduating from college this year plans on going to law school.

I know it's anecdotal, but this is either a freakish coincidence or very bad news for future EE IPers.

How many do you know? I don't know any from my class who did, but I graduated two years ago.

5 or 6. Most of them contacted me just to see if going to law school was worth it. I, of course, responded with a resounding 'NO.'

i never understood why engineers with jobs would go back to school for a law degree...more hours, more debt, potential for less pay....the real draws of a jd huh. i didn't major in engineering, but if i could turn back time i'd probably major in CE or EE and not go to law school/grad school

[ughOSU]

IMO TCR for engineers is to do something in green energy for a couple years (preferably as project manager), then go to elite b-school, then get into the venture capital side of green energy. You'll be the bankers of the 21st century.

[englawyer]

Every EE I know who is graduating from college this year plans on going to law school.

I know it's anecdotal, but this is either a freakish coincidence or very bad news for future EE IPers.

How many do you know? I don't know any from my class who did, but I graduated two years ago.

5 or 6. Most of them contacted me just to see if going to law school was worth it. I, of course, responded with a resounding 'NO.'

i never understood why engineers with jobs would go back to school for a law degree...more hours, more debt, potential for less pay....the real draws of a jd huh. i didn't major in engineering, but if i could turn back time i'd probably major in CE or EE and not go to law school/grad school

engineering has many drawbacks depending on your personality, goals, and ambition level.

Genius and Ambitious these people do fine in engineering. They usually love to build things on the side for fun, and end up creating facebook, google, etc. they can often raise VC and become multi millionaires

Smart and Ambitious these folks are screwed in engineering. they are passionate about success and want to make $$$. they work hard, only to find they get paid the same amount as the Middling folk. they find themselves hitting a "salary cap" and unable to progress rapidly in their career. they either "check out" at put in minimum work or go to a professional school (LS, MBA, or heck even dentist)

Smart/Genius and Dont Care about $ These people thrive in engineering. They get a chance to work on cool technologies etc and don't mind making "only" 100k. They also appreciate not having to wear suits/keep up appearances/etc.

Middling these folks are smarter than average, but know their limitations. They are thrilled at making 100k/year w/ a great life balance. They probably could not get into top LS or top MBA programs and they don't care.

i am more in the smart and ambitious category, so for me a professional degree is making sense at this point.

[englawyer]

IMO TCR for engineers is to do something in green energy for a couple years (preferably as project manager), then go to elite b-school, then get into the venture capital side of green energy. You'll be the bankers of the 21st century.

this is a good idea, but there are several obstacles.

#1. project manager is not an entry level position. this will probably require 4 years or so of experience. at that point you will be 27 and "over the hill" for some mba programs

#2 elite business schools have 1/3 consultants, 1/3 bankers, 1/3 other. engineers can be in that 1/3 other but are competing w/ non-profit, urm, military, and a slew of other fields. also, 1/2 of india and china are applying from IT/engineering backgrounds and are put in the same bin. so basically, its an uphill battle.

#3. its very tough to join a VC firm. They usually want former entrepreneurs. an MBA can help facilitate that path, but its not for everyone.

I think an elite JD (YHS, maybe even T14) can also facilitate a similar career path. Raising funds is dependent on your degrees of freedom from VC firms. At a top school, as an engineering student, you can perhaps be introduced by a professor that was an entrepreneur to gain credibility.

Law is another viable field to make those connections. Law firms are involved in every VC deal and through that you can build a reputation/make the connections necessary to pursue your own VC investment: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Arrington

[zreinhar]

i never understood why engineers with jobs would go back to school for a law degree...more hours, more debt, potential for less pay....the real draws of a jd huh. i didn't major in engineering, but if i could turn back time i'd probably major in CE or EE and not go to law school/grad school

In all honesty there is (at least for me) a few reasons. Yes there are more hours to work, but not as much as you think, in engineering, a full time engineer works prob 50+ hours a week. Plus the pain in the ass thing about engineering and engineering school for that matter is that even up until the end of the project, you never really know if its going to work, there could be some murderous hiccup in the system that completely obliterates it (speaking from experience) then you are royally screwed.. as far as the less pay I would argue against that. Most patent agents make more than engineers and they haven't even gone to law school, so while there is always a potential for less money, the absence of a roof pay in IP makes it the reason Im doing it. Ironically with reference to the categories presented I would say that I fall into the smart/genius and dont care about $. I don't dream of having a mansion, or a ferrari or making a million a year. But, I know people who have personally done it and I figure why the hell not. If push comes to shove I can donate the money I make to people who really need it. Im happy living with my wife making the money we make (note I just graduated and she works in a barbershop, and I qualify for pell grant) By the same token, Law is a job that you can do for a very long time. Engineering changes so much so quickly that you can really only "engineer" for like 10 years before you are a relic (unless in research) and at that point, its management or bust. But in law, a good lawyer is like wine, they only get better with age. lastly... I like it. One again referring to my internship, I have never been that ingrossed in what i do at work, outside of my first night working as a dishwasher at Outback Steakhouse..

[Sourpunch]

Re-take man, I postponed a year (didn't make your mistake, I cancelled when I felt I did shit) and re-did the LSAT in December 09- got a 169- I'm happy.

[ughOSU]

IMO TCR for engineers is to do something in green energy for a couple years (preferably as project manager), then go to elite b-school, then get into the venture capital side of green energy. You'll be the bankers of the 21st century.

this is a good idea, but there are several obstacles.

#1. project manager is not an entry level position. this will probably require 4 years or so of experience. at that point you will be 27 and "over the hill" for some mba programs

#2 elite business schools have 1/3 consultants, 1/3 bankers, 1/3 other. engineers can be in that 1/3 other but are competing w/ non-profit, urm, military, and a slew of other fields. also, 1/2 of india and china are applying from IT/engineering backgrounds and are put in the same bin. so basically, its an uphill battle.

#3. its very tough to join a VC firm. They usually want former entrepreneurs. an MBA can help facilitate that path, but its not for everyone.

I think an elite JD (YHS, maybe even T14) can also facilitate a similar career path. Raising funds is dependent on your degrees of freedom from VC firms. At a top school, as an engineering student, you can perhaps be introduced by a professor that was an entrepreneur to gain credibility.

Law is another viable field to make those connections. Law firms are involved in every VC deal and through that you can build a reputation/make the connections necessary to pursue your own VC investment: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Arrington

Yea I mean definetely not a well beaten path to millions, but I don't think there is a well beaten path to millions. I do know a few people who have made a ridiculous amount of money doing this (mostly went into banking after b-school to make connections, etc., then to VC start-ups). I would expect that in the next 20-50 years non-fossil fuel energy sources will explode, and these people will be there to cash in.

[englawyer]

Yea I mean definetely not a well beaten path to millions, but I don't think there is a well beaten path to millions. I do know a few people who have made a ridiculous amount of money doing this (mostly went into banking after b-school to make connections, etc., then to VC start-ups). I would expect that in the next 20-50 years non-fossil fuel energy sources will explode, and these people will be there to cash in.

i agree with that. clean energy will be a win. i just think that LS can be a viable path as well, although maybe i am wrong. we have discussed JD vs MBA tradeoffs in the jd/mba thread.

hopefully w/ a jd we can get jobs like this:

http://www.ropesgray.com/venturecapital/
http://www.foleyhoag.com/Industries/Ven ... /news.aspx

i am sure that there are many law firms in CA as well that have similar practice areas.

[zreinhar]

haha as OP I have to laugh at the hijacking.. went from applying late, to engineering, to IP, to VC?