C/O 2017 Median LSAT/GPA/Class Size Forum

[Moneytrees]

Stellina- The T14 is "real" as in it denotes the historically best schools in the nation; it's a real reflection of which schools are considered to be the best by people in the legal community.

Right now, Georgetown is not only ranked higher, but it's also considered to be better, generally speaking, than those schools. However, that has been changing as of late. So if Georgetown drops out of the T14, what that means is that the legal landscape has shifted in favor of those other schools; it denotes a rise in prestige of Georgetown's peers. While while dropping out of the T14 wouldn't have that much of an immediate practical effect on, say, employment, I think it would matter for Vandy/UT/UCLA grads.

[stellina]

Stellina- The T14 is "real" as in it denotes the historically best schools in the nation; it's a real reflection of which schools are considered to be the best by people in the legal community.

Right now, Georgetown is not only ranked higher, but it's also considered to be better, generally speaking, than those schools. However, that has been changing as of late. So if Georgetown drops out of the T14, what that means is that the legal landscape has shifted in favor of those other schools; it denotes a rise in prestige of Georgetown's peers. While while dropping out of the T14 wouldn't have that much of an immediate practical effect on, say, employment, I think it would matter for Vandy/UT/UCLA grads.

T14 designation is a lagging indicator of reputation, sorry. If Vandy or whoever started out placing gulc by 10%, it still wouldn't consistently be "t14" for like 15 years.

It isn't a leading indicator of performance, and it certainly isn't causative.

Just trying to imagine your last sentence playing out in the real world:

"Sir! UT has taken over the 14th slot in the USNWR rankings!"
"Hmm. Well, it may be 14th, but is it... *T14*?"
"I'm afraid not, sir."
"Then don't bother me with those peasants, Johnson, throw out the resumes!"
"Wait... Sir! I'm getting reports from top-law-schools.com that UT is indeed now considered part of the T14."
"Well in that case, what are you waiting for? Hire, hire, hire!"

Ps. In case I wasn't clear, a lagging indicator of something that we have current, direct data on is worthless.

[whitespider]

Not having much luck on median Monday, but here's something surprising...

St. Johns

153/157/159 (+1/+1/+1)
3.20/3.45/3.64 (+.03/+.06/+.02)
215 Enrolled (-48)

http://www.stjohns.edu/law/admissions/class-fact-sheet

[whitespider]

But this one makes more sense...

Drake Law

148/152/156 (-1/-1/-2)
2.97/3.25/3.53 (-.02/+.02/+.04)
104 Enrolled (-14)

http://www.law.drake.edu/admissions/?pa ... assProfile

[TheodoreKGB]

.

[MikeJD]

GT has a 167 with 3.76.. That's really good with a class close to 600. You have to look at the big numbers, they probably have about 100 or so who are 169 with a 3.8 or so who they gave out decent amount of money.

[Tiago Splitter]

GT has a 167 with 3.76.. That's really good with a class close to 600. You have to look at the big numbers, they probably have about 100 or so who are 169 with a 3.8 or so who they gave out decent amount of money.

I doubt they even have 100 people matriculating with a score better than their 75th percentile number of 168. And I'd wager that the vast majority of people above that 167 median are splitters.

[should-i-do-it]

This thread is for medians not georgetttown

[illegallad]

BC could absolutely lose out to UIUC. It wasn't that long ago that UIUC was above BC, I see no reason to say it wouldn't happen again, especially considering UIUC is trending upwards and BC is trending down.

UIUC was #21 when I applied to law school. Before like the third scandal in 10 years finally sunk it.

Yup. My rationale in going here was that it most likely had bottomed out, that based on the money they were throwing around they were buying their way back up in the rankings. Buy low, sell high, and all that. But I guess we'll see how effective those scholarships were once UIUC releases the freaking information.

From the looks of LSN, it looks like they needed every bit of that money to maintain a 160 median. IOW, I think that money, at least at this point, is just stemming the bleeding. It could be a while before we see the momentum reversed. However, given that other schools in that range are also bleeding, simply treading water this year might bump them up.

The employment picture in Chicago is such utter garbage right now though that I'm interested to see the employment outcomes from this last class and the one before. They've also been propped up by their pre-scandal employment rates. But we don't know how the post-scandal employment picture is going to look for the classes with T2 medians.

Quite a few people here at UIUC have talked to admissions and I guess they were real pleased with how this class turned out. They had a much higher matriculation rate than they expected and rumor has it the medians went up. Last year when I was a 1L it was pretty obvious that the class medians were going down just by how depressed admissions seemed to be. Now they look like they couldn't be happier. Anecdotal I know, but it's the only thing we'll have until December (which I'm sure is when they'll actually let people know the medians).

Also although my class is still going through OCI every class before us has shown consistently better offer numbers. So it looks like those are going up as well. (Again, this is just the word around the school).

[bl1nds1ght]

But this one makes more sense...

Drake Law

148/152/156 (-1/-1/-2)
2.97/3.25/3.53 (-.02/+.02/+.04)
104 Enrolled (-14)

http://www.law.drake.edu/admissions/?pa ... assProfile

I, too, like ass profiles.

[MikeJD]

GT has a 167 with 3.76.. That's really good with a class close to 600. You have to look at the big numbers, they probably have about 100 or so who are 169 with a 3.8 or so who they gave out decent amount of money.

I doubt they even have 100 people matriculating with a score better than their 75th percentile number of 168. And I'd wager that the vast majority of people above that 167 median are splitters.

I'm sure they have some but every school has a ton splitters these with the apps decline.

[JCougar]

Quite a few people here at UIUC have talked to admissions and I guess they were real pleased with how this class turned out. They had a much higher matriculation rate than they expected and rumor has it the medians went up. Last year when I was a 1L it was pretty obvious that the class medians were going down just by how depressed admissions seemed to be. Now they look like they couldn't be happier. Anecdotal I know, but it's the only thing we'll have until December (which I'm sure is when they'll actually let people know the medians).

Also although my class is still going through OCI every class before us has shown consistently better offer numbers. So it looks like those are going up as well. (Again, this is just the word around the school).

Well, they were giving out huge money to splitters as low as 160 earlier, but it's possible they had the same issue as WUSTL, and they offered deferments to people already accepted, etc. I guess we will see.

[JCougar]

Anyway, back to medians.

If you look at the spreadsheet now, I think it actually shows that things were just as bad as people were expecting, with two exceptions: 1) The schools in the T20 did fine, as people either perceived the risk of going to these schools as worth it, or they at least got enough money from these schools to make them believe it was so, and 2) State schools seemed to do particularly well, especially in the less-populated states. If you look at the schools outside the T20 that maintained or even gained on their medians, they're almost all state schools. In-state tuition discounts were probably a huge factor.

This is overall a pretty encouraging development, as in a just and fair world, there would only be about 20-30 "national" or "regional" powerhouses, and 1-2 state schools in each state giving low-cost education. Law schools outside of these groups are mostly scams and traps, and need to be closed immediately. But since the ABA won't act immediately, we'll have to just wait for the market to adapt...and there seems to be signs that it is.

[KMart]

Law schools outside of these groups are mostly scams and traps, and need to be closed immediately.

It is sad when people don't realize this and go to law school hoping they are going to get a JD required job...

[illegallad]

Quite a few people here at UIUC have talked to admissions and I guess they were real pleased with how this class turned out. They had a much higher matriculation rate than they expected and rumor has it the medians went up. Last year when I was a 1L it was pretty obvious that the class medians were going down just by how depressed admissions seemed to be. Now they look like they couldn't be happier. Anecdotal I know, but it's the only thing we'll have until December (which I'm sure is when they'll actually let people know the medians).

Also although my class is still going through OCI every class before us has shown consistently better offer numbers. So it looks like those are going up as well. (Again, this is just the word around the school).

Well, they were giving out huge money to splitters as low as 160 earlier, but it's possible they had the same issue as WUSTL, and they offered deferments to people already accepted, etc. I guess we will see.

Yeah but at the same time, they weren't accepting any non URMs with an LSAT below 160. They also didn't move the waitlist at all. Still we'll see when the numbers come out, and since we have to submit them for an independent audit now that could take a while.

[JCougar]

Law schools outside of these groups are mostly scams and traps, and need to be closed immediately.

It is sad when people don't realize this and go to law school hoping they are going to get a JD required job...

Especially when "JD-required job" is no guarantee you're not working in shitlaw under sweatshop conditions where you're making $35K/year with no health insurance and no PSLF. And no future.

People are overly focused on the 26K actual lawyer jobs each year (which, even with the current class-size declines, means that a large proportion of graduates will never get a chance to become a lawyer). But what they should really gather is that ~50% of those 26K lawyer jobs are terrible outcomes that no one would wish on their worst enemy. I doubt there's much more than 10K desirable law jobs out there each year.

[Big Dog]

So if Georgetown drops out of the T14...

That is impossible. The t14 is really a list of 14 schools that at one time were ranked in the top 10 (at least once). So UT/Vandy/UCLA could move into the 14th or 13th or 12th or 11th spot, and GUCL would still be part of the T14 and they would not.

[Mack.Hambleton]

#medianmonday

[JCougar]

So if Georgetown drops out of the T14...

That is impossible. The t14 is really a list of 14 schools that at one time were ranked in the top 10 (at least once). So UT/Vandy/UCLA could move into the 14th or 13th or 12th or 11th spot, and GUCL would still be part of the T14 and they would not.

That's not entirely true, as Cornell has never cleanly been ranked in the top 10. It's been tied for 10 twice, I believe, but technically, that means it was T11 in those years.

[MikeJD]

Maybe this is why GW hasn't come out yet.. GT lowering their standards to 167 probably took quite of few what would have been theirs and lowered their numbers.

[jewkidontheblock]

I'll just leave this here...

http://www.gwhatchet.com/2014/03/03/law ... selective/

[Moneytrees]

So if Georgetown drops out of the T14...

That is impossible. The t14 is really a list of 14 schools that at one time were ranked in the top 10 (at least once). So UT/Vandy/UCLA could move into the 14th or 13th or 12th or 11th spot, and GUCL would still be part of the T14 and they would not.[/quo

This keeps getting repeated and may or not be true, but the T14 really stands for the 14 schools that are clearly the best in terms of employment and are recognized as the most prestigious.

[rebexness]

Hey remember when this thread was about finding out and reporting statistics for law schools?

Me either.

[swordking90]

I'll just leave this here...

http://www.gwhatchet.com/2014/03/03/law ... selective/

Let's see if the "let's ratchet up class size - screw medians, screw employment" approach continues this year.

[eriedoctrine]

"Only one peer school, American University, saw a bigger slide in its selectivity than GW's."
http://www.gwhatchet.com/2014/03/03/law ... selective/

Oh lawl.