C/O 2017 Median LSAT/GPA/Class Size Forum

[swordking90]

But it's employment that matters, not rankings, amirite? BC can be #70 and BU can be #20 but all I care
Edit: Pretty sure BC is dropping to the #40s this year.

I really don't see BC losing out in the rankings to the likes of Brigham Young, UIUC, U Arizona, SMU, etc.

[illegallad]

But it's employment that matters, not rankings, amirite? BC can be #70 and BU can be #20 but all I care
Edit: Pretty sure BC is dropping to the #40s this year.

I really don't see BC losing out in the rankings to the likes of Brigham Young, UIUC, U Arizona, SMU, etc.

You might be surprised. Given the insane amount of money UIUC is throwing out (coupled with a better employment score), they might rise above BC again.

[rebexness]

So in the T30 we are still looking for:

Stanford
Northwestern
Cornell
Texas
Emory
GW
U Washington
Boston U

[swordking90]

So in the T30 we are still looking for:

Stanford
Northwestern
Cornell
Texas
Emory
GW
U Washington
Boston U

NYU's medians are not out yet.

[cannibal ox]

So far the lack of dropping medians has been disappointing, but BC just made my night.

--ImageRemoved--

[Moneytrees]

That's a big hit for BC. Despite pretty decent employment numbers, it's now clearly lagging behind BU in admissions standards. Unless BU was also hit hard...

[isuperserial]

But it's employment that matters, not rankings, amirite? BC can be #70 and BU can be #20 but all I care
Edit: Pretty sure BC is dropping to the #40s this year.

I really don't see BC losing out in the rankings to the likes of Brigham Young, UIUC, U Arizona, SMU, etc.

You might be surprised. Given the insane amount of money UIUC is throwing out (coupled with a better employment score), they might rise above BC again.

BC could absolutely lose out to UIUC. It wasn't that long ago that UIUC was above BC, I see no reason to say it wouldn't happen again, especially considering UIUC is trending upwards and BC is trending down.

[JCougar]

All of that being said, I don't think Georgetown is going to plummet down the rankings any time soon. A lot of people are willing to pay a premium for the Georgetown name. It will probably take years for Georgetown to fall out of the top 14, if it happens at all.

But wasn't it just a year and a half ago that it was tied with Texas for 14?

I think that Georgetown stareth more deeply into the Abyss than many people on here realize. I know that CW on TLS is that school prestige is rock solid over time, and that US News variations are mostly random and should be ignored. And this is probably 98% correct. But schools like GTown and perhaps UIUC might be part of that 2%.

[JCougar]

BC could absolutely lose out to UIUC. It wasn't that long ago that UIUC was above BC, I see no reason to say it wouldn't happen again, especially considering UIUC is trending upwards and BC is trending down.

UIUC was #21 when I applied to law school. Before like the third scandal in 10 years finally sunk it.

[NYSStateOfMind]

That's a big hit for BC. Despite pretty decent employment numbers, it's now clearly lagging behind BU in admissions standards. Unless BU was also hit hard...

BU cut its class size pretty well, down to 208 (including 2 who dropped at orientation). The general sense I have gotten is that most people received fairly generous scholarships as well. It also seems like a lot of people chose BU this year over comparable schools because of the new law building that just opened.

[Moneytrees]

All of that being said, I don't think Georgetown is going to plummet down the rankings any time soon. A lot of people are willing to pay a premium for the Georgetown name. It will probably take years for Georgetown to fall out of the top 14, if it happens at all.

But wasn't it just a year and a half ago that it was tied with Texas for 14?

I think that Georgetown stareth more deeply into the Abyss than many people on here realize. I know that CW on TLS is that school prestige is rock solid over time, and that US News variations are mostly random and should be ignored. And this is probably 98% correct. But schools like GTown and perhaps UIUC might be part of that 2%.

You're right. But UT's medians have been slipping. It's not like UT and Vandy have been steadily improving during Georgetown's slide; they are tenuously holding onto their medians, and in the case of UT, its medians are still lower than Gtown's. The Georgetown brand is pretty powerful and well regarded in legal circles. Its Peer Reputation score will keep it afloat until/if Gtown's medians drops below those of its peers. That's why I think that Georgetown will hold onto its T14 status for the foreseeable future.

And even though rankings are meaningless for the vast majority of schools, I think that they mean something when we are talking T14 schools. TLS CW is that the T14 is a reflection of prestige; the top schools are the top schools not because of their ranking, but because they are recognized as the most prestigious. If Georgetown falls out of the T14, this will be a reflection of its peers (UT/Vandy/UCLA) eclipsing Gtown in reputation and prestige (measured by the Peer Reputation surveys). At the end of the day, this will mean nothing for employment opportunities. But it would mean something to Gtown's peers. It's interesting to follow these sorts of trends, even though they don't have that much practical bearing.

[isuperserial]

BC could absolutely lose out to UIUC. It wasn't that long ago that UIUC was above BC, I see no reason to say it wouldn't happen again, especially considering UIUC is trending upwards and BC is trending down.

UIUC was #21 when I applied to law school. Before like the third scandal in 10 years finally sunk it.

Yup. My rationale in going here was that it most likely had bottomed out, that based on the money they were throwing around they were buying their way back up in the rankings. Buy low, sell high, and all that. But I guess we'll see how effective those scholarships were once UIUC releases the freaking information.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

I think that Georgetown stareth more deeply into the Abyss than many people on here realize. I know that CW on TLS is that school prestige is rock solid over time, and that US News variations are mostly random and should be ignored. And this is probably 98% correct. But schools like GTown and perhaps UIUC might be part of that 2%.

GULC won't fall out of the T14 for decades, no matter how badly mismanaged their admissions process is or how their employment looks a lot more than UT, UCLA and Vandy than its supposed "peers." It's well-known that Michigan has been held afloat from the "Lawyers and judges" survey by Boomers who graduated in the early-to-mid '70s when UM was a top-five school. Fun fact: Michigan was tied for second in the Lawyer and Judges score last year with UChi, Stanford and Yale. I'm going to repeat that because I don't think once was enough: TIED FOR SECOND. That's how a school gets to be "top ten" when it doesn't have the admissions numbers or the placement ability to claim that mantle.

This year GULC had a 4.4 score in that metric while UT had a 4.1. The T14 idea too ingrained for it to change anytime soon. Hell, the writing's been on Michigan's wall for thirty years and it's still afloat somehow.

[Moneytrees]

I think that Georgetown stareth more deeply into the Abyss than many people on here realize. I know that CW on TLS is that school prestige is rock solid over time, and that US News variations are mostly random and should be ignored. And this is probably 98% correct. But schools like GTown and perhaps UIUC might be part of that 2%.

GULC won't fall out of the T14 for decades, no matter how badly mismanaged their admissions process is or how their employment looks a lot more than UT, UCLA and Vandy than its supposed "peers." It's well-known that Michigan has been held afloat from the "Lawyers and judges" survey by Boomers who graduated in the early-to-mid '70s when UM was a top-five school. Fun fact: Michigan was tied for second in the Lawyer and Judges score last year with UChi, Stanford and Yale. I'm going to repeat that because I don't think once was enough: TIED FOR SECOND. That's how a school gets to be "top ten" when it doesn't have the admissions numbers or the placement ability to claim that mantle.

This year GULC had a 4.4 score in that metric while UT had a 4.1. The T14 idea too ingrained for it to change anytime soon. Hell, the writing's been on Michigan's wall for thirty years and it's still afloat somehow.

The Peer Reputation score alone won't keep Georgetown in the T14. Michigan is a top 10 school because it has top 10 medians in addition to its sterling reputation score. Georgetown's medians are now at UT/Vandy/UCLA, and could possibly drop below those schools if Gtown continues to mismanage its application process.

I agree that it could take years for Georgetown to lose its current status, but it's not impossible or even unimaginable.

[JCougar]

BC could absolutely lose out to UIUC. It wasn't that long ago that UIUC was above BC, I see no reason to say it wouldn't happen again, especially considering UIUC is trending upwards and BC is trending down.

UIUC was #21 when I applied to law school. Before like the third scandal in 10 years finally sunk it.

Yup. My rationale in going here was that it most likely had bottomed out, that based on the money they were throwing around they were buying their way back up in the rankings. Buy low, sell high, and all that. But I guess we'll see how effective those scholarships were once UIUC releases the freaking information.

From the looks of LSN, it looks like they needed every bit of that money to maintain a 160 median. IOW, I think that money, at least at this point, is just stemming the bleeding. It could be a while before we see the momentum reversed. However, given that other schools in that range are also bleeding, simply treading water this year might bump them up.

The employment picture in Chicago is such utter garbage right now though that I'm interested to see the employment outcomes from this last class and the one before. They've also been propped up by their pre-scandal employment rates. But we don't know how the post-scandal employment picture is going to look for the classes with T2 medians.

[JCougar]

GULC won't fall out of the T14 for decades, no matter how badly mismanaged their admissions process is or how their employment looks a lot more than UT, UCLA and Vandy than its supposed "peers." It's well-known that Michigan has been held afloat from the "Lawyers and judges" survey by Boomers who graduated in the early-to-mid '70s when UM was a top-five school. Fun fact: Michigan was tied for second in the Lawyer and Judges score last year with UChi, Stanford and Yale. I'm going to repeat that because I don't think once was enough: TIED FOR SECOND. That's how a school gets to be "top ten" when it doesn't have the admissions numbers or the placement ability to claim that mantle.

This year GULC had a 4.4 score in that metric while UT had a 4.1. The T14 idea too ingrained for it to change anytime soon. Hell, the writing's been on Michigan's wall for thirty years and it's still afloat somehow.

But like I said before, in 2013, the peer reputation score was only enough to tie the school with Texas. So it can't be boosting them that much.

All it might take is an LSAT drop of one extra point one of these years, and either Texas or Vandy could tie for 14, with Gtown coming in at 16.

[stellina]

You guys are talking about the T14 like its an actually meaningful concept. It's not. It's just shorthand for "the top schools"

"Falling out of the t14" is meaningless because you don't lose anything. Like literally nothing. Vandy isn't in the t14 and it does just as well as gulc. If we collectively replaced gulc and vandy when referring to t14 nothing would change. We could start referring to the t13 and nothing would change. It's not a secret society, just a shorthand.

[jbagelboy]

You guys are talking about the T14 like its an actually meaningful concept. It's not. It's just shorthand for "the top schools"

"Falling out of the t14" is meaningless because you don't lose anything. Like literally nothing. Vandy isn't in the t14 and it does just as well as gulc. If we collectively replaced gulc and vandy when referring to t14 nothing would change. We could start referring to the t13 and nothing would change. It's not a secret society, just a shorthand.

true, but TLS didn't invent the "T14" label - it's been a part of the industry for decades

[stellina]

You guys are talking about the T14 like its an actually meaningful concept. It's not. It's just shorthand for "the top schools"

"Falling out of the t14" is meaningless because you don't lose anything. Like literally nothing. Vandy isn't in the t14 and it does just as well as gulc. If we collectively replaced gulc and vandy when referring to t14 nothing would change. We could start referring to the t13 and nothing would change. It's not a secret society, just a shorthand.

true, but TLS didn't invent the "T14" label - it's been a part of the industry for decades

It doesn't matter when that shorthand came into being; it's still just shorthand that comes with nearly no real world effects.

[stellina]

And before you say "admissions!", yeah I'll grant they probably get a slight boost from being included in the shorthand for top schools. But i bet the primary difference in the tuition they can change (schollys) vs vandy comes down to location, location, location.

Most non-southerners abhor the thought of living in the south. DC is the epicenter of many a prospective students legal dreams.

[swordking90]

You guys are talking about the T14 like its an actually meaningful concept. It's not. It's just shorthand for "the top schools"

"Falling out of the t14" is meaningless because you don't lose anything. Like literally nothing. Vandy isn't in the t14 and it does just as well as gulc. If we collectively replaced gulc and vandy when referring to t14 nothing would change. We could start referring to the t13 and nothing would change. It's not a secret society, just a shorthand.

true, but TLS didn't invent the "T14" label - it's been a part of the industry for decades

It doesn't matter when that shorthand came into being; it's still just shorthand that comes with nearly no real world effects.

I'm usually not one for elitism, but the T-14 category (and the exact schools that employers view as deserving of inclusion in the group) is very much a real-world concept. I myself am at a T-14 school, and have seen my career office distribute job ads that (in short) say "T-14 grads only."

[swordking90]

NYU Medians:
167 / 170 / 172
3.56 / 3.75 / 3.87
Source: http://www.law.nyu.edu/jdadmissions/app ... assprofile

[stellina]

You guys are talking about the T14 like its an actually meaningful concept. It's not. It's just shorthand for "the top schools"

"Falling out of the t14" is meaningless because you don't lose anything. Like literally nothing. Vandy isn't in the t14 and it does just as well as gulc. If we collectively replaced gulc and vandy when referring to t14 nothing would change. We could start referring to the t13 and nothing would change. It's not a secret society, just a shorthand.

true, but TLS didn't invent the "T14" label - it's been a part of the industry for decades

It doesn't matter when that shorthand came into being; it's still just shorthand that comes with nearly no real world effects.

I'm usually not one for elitism, but the T-14 category (and the exact schools that employers view as deserving of inclusion in the group) is very much a real-world concept. I myself am at a T-14 school, and have seen my career office distribute job ads that (in short) say "T-14 grads only."

Care to share the exact wording of one of those?

Unless it literally says t14, the only thing that indicates that a gulc person would be welcome to apply, but a vandy or ut person wouldn't is your perception of what "top law school" means.

Measurable real world outcomes are not significantly different at gulc vs vandy.

[03152016]

NYU Medians:
167 / 170 / 172
3.56 / 3.75 / 3.87
Source: http://www.law.nyu.edu/jdadmissions/app ... assprofile

thx for finding that
lsat held, +.03 on gpa

[swordking90]

NYU Medians:
167 / 170 / 172
3.56 / 3.75 / 3.87
Source: http://www.law.nyu.edu/jdadmissions/app ... assprofile

Edit: Class size: 453 (+16 from last year)