C/O 2017 Median LSAT/GPA/Class Size Forum

[Colonel_funkadunk]

So is the reputation score all that's keeping gtown afloat? Their numbers are getting lower, employment is worse than the other t14s, they don't have a big endowment to throw money around with. Am I missing something?

I mean they're 14th, they're admission standards are worse than the 13th other schools in the t14. If they were 10th this would make sense, but relative to the 13 other schools
Their employments stats is precisely why they are 14

[JCougar]

If you want a visual representation of school ranks by US News raw score, it's:

Y



H
S


CC



N

P

V
B
MD


N


CG


Tex
UCLA/Vandy


WUSTL


Emory
GW/MN/USC
AL
W&M/WA
ND
BU/IA


IN/GA
ASU/OSU/UNC/WI/WFU
BC/BYU/Fordham/UCD
AZ/UIUC
SMU

CO/W&L
FSU/GMU/Tulane/MD
FL/UT

[jbagelboy]

So is the reputation score all that's keeping gtown afloat? Their numbers are getting lower, employment is worse than the other t14s, they don't have a big endowment to throw money around with. Am I missing something?

yea basically - although they still fill an employment gap b/t Michigan and Vanderbilt/UCLA/Texas. Consider faculty hiring. Fellowship candidates sometimes view law departments the way law students view vault firms (this isn't a perfect analogy but it's descriptive), and they rank them based on where they were accepted/rejected for tenure track positions, ect. Prof at Georgetown is still considered a cushier gig than one of the more regional schools and this definitely impacts reputation scores among faculty.

Also think about clerkship hiring - the top 5%/LR of the class at georgetown probably still accesses top D.C. appeals and COA around the country. This impacts how judges rate the school since they see familiar faces and pedigree in chambers. Judges have a huge impact on reputation scores.

so I don't think Georgetown will drop so soon

[JCougar]

Yeah, but if its medians keep dropping, it's going to have to get better reputation scores than before to keep it up.

[Moneytrees]

Yeah, but if its medians keep dropping, it's going to have to get better reputation scores than before to keep it up.

Exactly. Currently, difference in medians between Georgetown/Cornell and UT/Vandy/UCLA is negligible. So the only thing that is keeping the former schools in the T14 is the Peer Reputation score.

Cornell's strong employment numbers will continue to attract applicants, so it would be surprising to see Cornell's admission standards drop below UT and co.'s level. On the other hand, Georgetown's medians are more likely to drop due to the stinginess of its scholarship offers and relatively weak employment numbers, which would necessitate an improvement in Georgetown's reputation score in order to stay ahead of UT, Vandy and UCLA.

All of that being said, I don't think Georgetown is going to plummet down the rankings any time soon. A lot of people are willing to pay a premium for the Georgetown name. It will probably take years for Georgetown to fall out of the top 14, if it happens at all.

[swordking90]

Speaking of the GULC / Cornell v. UT / UCLA / Vandy debate, I see a similar contest between Berkeley (167, 3.78) / Michigan (168, 3.74) vs. Duke (169, 3.76). Duke's numbers are higher than both schools', but has had a tough time moving up.

I wonder how much longer Berkeley and Michigan can hold off Duke...could someone please enlighten me on why Berkeley can be a T-10 lock with a 167 median / why it's so highly regarded? Thanks!

[Julius]

GULC and like schools will start to tank once Peer Reputation surveys are given to people who've grown up with LST, TLS, and a general awareness of the legal economy post-2008. Boomers seem pretty clueless about its status as a degree mill.

It's probably a long time off but it'll happen eventually.

[whereskyle]

Speaking of the GULC / Cornell v. UT / UCLA / Vandy debate, I see a similar contest between Berkeley (167, 3.78) / Michigan (168, 3.74) vs. Duke (169, 3.76). Duke's numbers are higher than both schools', but has had a tough time moving up.

I wonder how much longer Berkeley and Michigan can hold off Duke...could someone please enlighten me on why Berkeley can be a T-10 lock with a 167 median / why it's so highly regarded? Thanks!

B gets so many apps that it is more selective in a sense than HYS + 86.7% employment score. GPA median is very high. I think these things make up for the slightly lower LSAT median.

[Attax]

Additionally, the thing to remember is T14 is more than just rankings. It has to do with national placement. Even if UT moves back up (which, I think, would be awesome) it still doesn't give it more national placement power. Sure, it has a decent amount but not on par with most of the T14. If you go to UT, you should still expect to end up in Texas.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

Additionally, the thing to remember is T14 is more than just rankings. It has to do with national placement. Even if UT moves back up (which, I think, would be awesome) it still doesn't give it more national placement power. Sure, it has a decent amount but not on par with most of the T14. If you go to UT, you should still expect to end up in Texas.

You acknowledge a bump in the rankings won't help you (or really anyone at your school), but you think it would be awesome if your school moved up one place. This is why USNEWS World Rankings exist.

I am just as guilty though, because I'm the same way with my undergrad. In some illogical place I feel like my undergrads success somehow represents my own success, even if all they did is win a football game. Totally nuts. I never saw law school in the same way, but I was a little older when I showed up.

I do wonder what percentage of people who live vicariously through their law school's prestige never had a traditional undergrad experience. Or maybe they attended the same school for both undergrad and law school, which might explain it.

[Attax]

Additionally, the thing to remember is T14 is more than just rankings. It has to do with national placement. Even if UT moves back up (which, I think, would be awesome) it still doesn't give it more national placement power. Sure, it has a decent amount but not on par with most of the T14. If you go to UT, you should still expect to end up in Texas.

You acknowledge a bump in the rankings won't help you (or really anyone at your school), but you think it would be awesome if your school moved up one place. This is why USNEWS World Rankings exist.

I am just as guilty though, because I'm the same way with my undergrad. In some illogical place I feel like my undergrads success somehow represents my own success, even if all they did is win a football game. Totally nuts. I never saw law school in the same way, but I was a little older when I showed up.

I do wonder what percentage of people who live vicariously through their law school's prestige never had a traditional undergrad experience. Or maybe they attended the same school for both undergrad and law school, which might explain it.

I attended UT for UG as well as now for LS. I think that the thing to remember though is that UT moving into the T14 wouldn't mean a huge paradigm shift where employers would all of a sudden prefer it over GULC. It isn't instantaneous and would be a mere reflection of the economy and consumers choosing what often is probably a better choice. Now, it could lead to such a differentiation over time as it becomes more apparent. However, despite the mere meaningless of rankings, it still is nice to see that on some level your school is improving while others fall behind, even if it has no real meaning.

[MikeJD]

The only thing that really matters is job placement and in that area GT>>> t-18..

[Attax]

The only thing that really matters is job placement and in that area GT>>> t-18..

Do you mean in terms of rankings or in general? Because this is really quite wrong in general, you're more likely to get substantive money to a "T18" than GULC, or you're likely to get money to better than gulc. I think that job placement with minimal debt is a highly important factor, and relevant for median consideration to determine how likely you are to receive that aid.

[brezz]

The only thing that really matters is job placement and in that area GT>>> t-18..

That isn't true.

[stellina]

Additionally, the thing to remember is T14 is more than just rankings. It has to do with national placement. Even if UT moves back up (which, I think, would be awesome) it still doesn't give it more national placement power. Sure, it has a decent amount but not on par with most of the T14. If you go to UT, you should still expect to end up in Texas.

Not sure where the idea that GULC has significantly more national pull is coming from.

If you look at the most recent posted NALP reports available (c/o 2012), GULC has three regions over 5%, while Vandy has SIX. Even if we expand to 3%, it's still GULC five, Vandy seven.

Hell, UT matches GULC with three regions over 5% and five over 3%. Sure, 75% are in Texas, but GULC has just as many in its core of DC/NY. Outside of that, the "national" reach is the same, if not greater.

GULC
56% - South Atlantic
21% - Mid-Atlantic
8% - Pacific
4% - E North Central
3% - New England

Vandy
27% - E South Central
23% - South Atlantic
19% - Mid-Atlantic
9% - Pacific
7% - E North Central
7% - W South Central
3% - Mountain

UT
76% - W South Central
6% - Mid-Atlantic
6% - South Atlantic
4% - Pacific
4% - Mountain

[Attax]

Additionally, the thing to remember is T14 is more than just rankings. It has to do with national placement. Even if UT moves back up (which, I think, would be awesome) it still doesn't give it more national placement power. Sure, it has a decent amount but not on par with most of the T14. If you go to UT, you should still expect to end up in Texas.

Not sure where the idea that GULC has significantly more national pull is coming from.

If you look at the most recent posted NALP reports available (c/o 2012), GULC has three regions over 5%, while Vandy has SIX. Even if we expand to 3%, it's still GULC five, Vandy seven.

Hell, UT matches GULC with three regions over 5% and five over 3%. Sure, 75% are in Texas, but GULC has just as many in its core of DC/NY. Outside of that, the "national" reach is the same, if not greater.

data data data

You may be correct, I'm merely reflecting the TLS hivemind here on this matter.

[cron1834]

Additionally, the thing to remember is T14 is more than just, ust rankings. It has to do with national placement. Even if UT moves back up (which, I think, would be awesome) it still doesn't give it more national placement power. Sure, it has a decent amount but not on par with most of the T14. If you go to UT, you should still expect to end up in Texas.

This is absolutely correct. Mich/Berk attract more PI ppl than Duke/Cornell and proportionally fewer ppl that are targeting NYC. I can't imagine that if you attend Mich/Berk with a conservative, NYC-only bid strategy that you'd be any worse off than someone doing the same from Duke/Cornell. Folks who post in the employment threads suggest that the grade cutoffs are effectively similar for these schools, so...

[runinthefront]

.

[jbagelboy]

Here's the thing though....if all things are equal (including price), and someone didn't care which geographic region they practiced in, why would one choose Vandy or UT over GULC?

Traditionally, Georgetown has been the better school and its literally churning out triple the amount of lawyers that Vandy is.

So even though 40% of students from GULC and Vandy, respectively, are gettting BL jobs...would you want to enter into a market where there's 3x as many alum you can connect to...or nah?

This may seem stupid, but what if one of the things holdng GULC afloat is the large alumni base?

Georgetown's large class size means only 40% get biglaw but that's 260 alumni you can reach out to

Vandy's small class size still only manages to place 40% in BL....but that means only 80 or so alumni you can reach out to...

Am I entirely off base here?

Wrt market paying private sector work it's erroneous reasoning because you're mistaking the nature of legal employment, "reaching out to alumni" isn't the meat of big law recruiting, or even a backdoor to a vault firm gig. It's tangentially related at best.

You get an associate position by working as an SA, and firms offer SA's overwhelmingly via OCI, where "reaching out to alumni" produces at most informational interviews. Many other factors trump alumni contacts in large firm recruiting that make the class size difference nearly irrelevant on that point. It's not like Yale and Stanford students struggle vis a vis Harvard

[stellina]

Price being equal with literally no geographic preference, yeah I'd pick gulc over vandy/ut. Mostly bc of historical prestige and name recognition. The gross number of alums isn't compelling to me, tho. A percentage is a percentage. Sure, those alums may help. But they help in the sense that they drag that giant class up to 40%, which is where vandy is anyway.

[Moneytrees]

Here's the thing though....if all things are equal (including price), and someone didn't care which geographic region they practiced in, why would one choose Vandy or UT over GULC?

Traditionally, Georgetown has been the better school and its literally churning out triple the amount of lawyers that Vandy is.

So even though 40% of students from GULC and Vandy, respectively, are gettting BL jobs...would you want to enter into a market where there's 3x as many alum you can connect to...or nah?

This may seem stupid, but what if one of the things holdng GULC afloat is the large alumni base?

Georgetown's large class size means only 40% get biglaw but that's 260 alumni you can reach out to

Vandy's small class size still only manages to place 40% in BL....but that means only 80 or so alumni you can reach out to...

Am I entirely off base here?

I wouldn't sat you are entirely off base. It could be a factor. But the real reason Georgetown is considered to be in the T14 is because historically it has been a more selective school than Vandy/UT/UCLA (if just by a small margin), and also because it generally has had better employment numbers. Things are changing though. You could definitely make an argument that Vanderbilt is a legitimate peer.

On the topic of Berkeley vs. lower T14: although B's LSAT median is slightly lower than most of those schools, keep in mind that it has an extremely low acceptance rate and a very high GPA. It also has an excellent reputation in the legal community, so I don't see it dropping out of the top 10 any time soon.

[stellina]

Also, considering the location, gulcs high PI/gov percentage likely isn't total flame. So it probably edges vandy in raw placement power by a little bit.

Though tbf vandy sends a lot of people to the south, which has smaller firms, so a higher percentage of good jobs may be left out of 100+. So who knows. Still, I'd prolly go with gulc.

[Moneytrees]

All things being equal, it's a toss up between Georgetown and Vandy. However, it's almost never going to come down to that. Vanderbilt will almost always be the right choice when you consider how little Georgetown offers in terms of scholarships.

[JustHawkin]

All things being equal, it's a toss up between Georgetown and Vandy. However, it's almost never going to come down to that. Vanderbilt will almost always be the right choice when you consider how little Georgetown offers in terms of scholarships.

Vandy is also pretty stingy.

[Attax]

All things being equal, it's a toss up between Georgetown and Vandy. However, it's almost never going to come down to that. Vanderbilt will almost always be the right choice when you consider how little Georgetown offers in terms of scholarships.

Vandy is also pretty stingy.

This. I know a few people here who came to UT over Vandy/GULC b/c they were the least stingy.