Worst law school worth sticker? Forum

[cavalier1138]

I agree that sticker-price debt is generally a bad idea, but if you aggressively pay down your debt, even 2 years in biglaw can make enough of a dent that you can comfortably transition to a lower-paying area of private practice. And as mentioned, you can always do PI and take advantage of the generous LRAP programs at HYS/Columbia/NYU. The reality is that a degree from these schools makes a massive difference to your future career prospects, so that's why people often suggest that it may--in some situations--be worth it to go to a top school at sticker.

Curious about the noticeable omission of Chicago (and really the rest of the T10-13 or so) here. Is it just that they're not negative-am? I was under the impression that Chicago in particular had just revamped their LRAP to be pretty friendly to people who stay under the $80k/yr ceiling.

I was just including the schools that I know don't force you to rely on PSLF for repayment. Did Chicago update its program to include that option?

[The Lsat Airbender]

I was just including the schools that I know don't force you to rely on PSLF for repayment. Did Chicago update its program to include that option?

No, still requires IBR/PSLF to get to debt-free (which is also what I meant on the positive/negative-amortization distinction).

Which is probably how they can afford to be so generous on income: $80k ceiling, with no phase-out beneath that, is the single most generous plan AFAIK. PSLF is by no means secure, of course, and personally I'd probably stick on a negative-am plan given the option. All this is to say that one should read a school's documents very closely before dumping $250k into LRAP.

[blair.waldorf]

I would not pay sticker for any school. Not even YHS. If I can get into Yale, I can get a great scholarship at a T14, and for my personal goals, there would be no difference between Yale and say, Columbia. I have no interest in clerking and no interest in academia.

I really don't think sticker price, if you have to take on sticker debt, is worth it at any school unless you have very specific goals (like academia). The price of law school is going up every single year, and sticker price has just gotten totally out of control.

[purplegoldtornado]

I turned down Penn because I was nervous about the debt and now am really regretting it. Go as high as you can.

[blair.waldorf]

I turned down Penn because I was nervous about the debt and now am really regretting it. Go as high as you can.

Would you care to explain why you regret it?

[purplegoldtornado]

I turned down Penn because I was nervous about the debt and now am really regretting it. Go as high as you can.

Would you care to explain why you regret it?

Well, I guess this is kind of personal, but for me, I feel like I have always taken the best opportunities that I could have for myself. I have worked my ass off and really hustled to get where I am -- first to undergrad, then to law school, then my grades, and I finally set a ceiling for myself. I think I sold myself short. I didn't get myself go as far as I could, and I will not forgive myself for a very long time.

[nixy]

I turned down Penn because I was nervous about the debt and now am really regretting it. Go as high as you can.

Would you care to explain why you regret it?

Well, I guess this is kind of personal, but for me, I feel like I have always taken the best opportunities that I could have for myself. I have worked my ass off and really hustled to get where I am -- first to undergrad, then to law school, then my grades, and I finally set a ceiling for myself. I think I sold myself short. I didn't get myself go as far as I could, and I will not forgive myself for a very long time.

Respectfully, you haven't sold yourself short at all. If you have the grades where you are to transfer to Penn, you've excelled. You don't need an expensive and fancy name on your diploma to succeed. Now, maybe transferring would have been better for your employment goals - I can't comment on that - but avoiding debt is another way to take the best opportunity for yourself that you can.

[blair.waldorf]

I turned down Penn because I was nervous about the debt and now am really regretting it. Go as high as you can.

Would you care to explain why you regret it?

Well, I guess this is kind of personal, but for me, I feel like I have always taken the best opportunities that I could have for myself. I have worked my ass off and really hustled to get where I am -- first to undergrad, then to law school, then my grades, and I finally set a ceiling for myself. I think I sold myself short. I didn't get myself go as far as I could, and I will not forgive myself for a very long time.

Do you feel like you’ve genuinely missed out on opportunities you wanted, or do you just wish you had the prestige and arguably limitless possibilities from HYS (even though you may never wish to pursue those options)?

I can actually relate to this a bit. I took a full ride & small stipend to a “T20.” Fortunately, I did well and was able to get exactly what I would have gotten had I gone to a T14 (biglaw at a well-regraded firm in my desired market; I had no interest in some of the super prestigious stuff only available from the very top schools). I graduated debt free. But I still wonder if I should’ve gone to a higher ranked school. Not because things would’ve turned out differently but because I do like the idea of having supposedly limitless options (even if I never pursue them). Sometimes I feel like I set a ceiling for myself.

Then, I remember that I graduated without student loan debt and as a result have a lot of opportunities available that someone who feels shackled to biglaw until they pay down $300k in debt may not have. As of now, the freedom that comes with not starting my professional career six figures in the hole is worth the lack of prestige, limitless options, etc. Maybe thinking about the financial freedom you’ve gained by taking on less debt will help you feel better about your decision.

[purplegoldtornado]

I turned down Penn because I was nervous about the debt and now am really regretting it. Go as high as you can.

Would you care to explain why you regret it?

Well, I guess this is kind of personal, but for me, I feel like I have always taken the best opportunities that I could have for myself. I have worked my ass off and really hustled to get where I am -- first to undergrad, then to law school, then my grades, and I finally set a ceiling for myself. I think I sold myself short. I didn't get myself go as far as I could, and I will not forgive myself for a very long time.

Respectfully, you haven't sold yourself short at all. If you have the grades where you are to transfer to Penn, you've excelled. You don't need an expensive and fancy name on your diploma to succeed. Now, maybe transferring would have been better for your employment goals - I can't comment on that - but avoiding debt is another way to take the best opportunity for yourself that you can.

Sure - and I don't mean to sound dramatic; I am sure that I am way overreacting. It's just a lot of emotions now. I am very blessed to be in the position that I am, with a full scholarship and good grades. I just hope that I did not close doors that I would like to open later down the road. I am sure that I will succeed; I just wanted to give myself that opportunity.

[purplegoldtornado]

I turned down Penn because I was nervous about the debt and now am really regretting it. Go as high as you can.

Would you care to explain why you regret it?

Well, I guess this is kind of personal, but for me, I feel like I have always taken the best opportunities that I could have for myself. I have worked my ass off and really hustled to get where I am -- first to undergrad, then to law school, then my grades, and I finally set a ceiling for myself. I think I sold myself short. I didn't get myself go as far as I could, and I will not forgive myself for a very long time.

Do you feel like you’ve genuinely missed out on opportunities you wanted, or do you just wish you had the prestige and arguably limitless possibilities from HYS (even though you may never wish to pursue those options)?

I can actually relate to this a bit. I took a full ride & small stipend to a “T20.” Fortunately, I did well and was able to get exactly what I would have gotten had I gone to a T14 (biglaw at a well-regraded firm in my desired market; I had no interest in some of the super prestigious stuff only available from the very top schools). I graduated debt free. But I still wonder if I should’ve gone to a higher ranked school. Not because things would’ve turned out differently but because I do like the idea of having supposedly limitless options (even if I never pursue them). Sometimes I feel like I set a ceiling for myself.

Then, I remember that I graduated without student loan debt and as a result have a lot of opportunities available that someone who feels shackled to biglaw until they pay down $300k in debt may not have. As of now, the freedom that comes with not starting my professional career six figures in the hole is worth the lack of prestige, limitless options, etc. I’ll let you know if I still feel this way in 5 or 10 years.

Yes, I'll be candid; I wanted the prestige. And FWIW, I come from a T80, which would have even made it a longer jump. What made me stay was that (1) my family (low-income and rural) provided me with no support and (2) I felt like I would end back in the Midwest anyway, so I didn't see any need in transferring, only to come back and where I could have in the first place and be debt-free. However, after striking out of Fall OCI, I am left kind of dumbfounded. But I am not going to let that stop me. I can't control that, and as much as I want to, I can't go back in time and accept Penn. However, I can control my attitude. I've sent out about 150 emails this week to major markets and secondary markets with which I have ties (and more to come). Now it's a game of hustle. By staying here, I bet on myself. I want to make sure that it's a winning bet on the long run.

[crazywafflez]

Proudgun, I feel what you are saying. I didn't get into Penn but I was accepted to a couple T20s at sticker, a T1 with 3/4s scholly (where I am at now) and my home state U with a full ride and small stipend (it is a bottom of T2 ish school). I'm actually headed back to my home state after graduating and kinda kicking myself for not taking the full ride to home state U. I decided to compromise with my pick at the T1 and wish I would've just gone with the school with a full ride. I think my outcome would've most likely been quite similar (obviously, I can't fully state I would've been top 10-20% at home state U; but I'm top 40%). And with my current situation I'm gonna be 60k in the hole. It isn't the worst situation, and I love my firm, but I do regret not taking the full ride. I'm glad I didn't let prestige fully sway me into the T20s at sticker though. I might've been swayed by Duke or UVA though tbh. But I know now I want to be home near my family and wish I would've just taken the full scholly and run. Don't linger too much on regret though; it is what it is and sounds like you're kicking butt.

[eastcoast_iub]

I would not pay sticker for any school. Not even YHS. If I can get into Yale, I can get a great scholarship at a T14, and for my personal goals, there would be no difference between Yale and say, Columbia. I have no interest in clerking and no interest in academia.

I really don't think sticker price, if you have to take on sticker debt, is worth it at any school unless you have very specific goals (like academia). The price of law school is going up every single year, and sticker price has just gotten totally out of control.

This is over-broad, and sticker makes sense at most of the T14 assuming you want BigLaw. I gave up a near full scholarship at a then-T25 for the last 2 years of law school to transfer to a T10 and it was life-changing. I paid off the debt after a few years in BigLaw and am approaching the top 1% of income as a rising 5th year. I was not a great interviewer and would never have made anywhere close to that money without going to a T10. The firm I am at is loaded with alums from my school and my school definitely played a big part in getting me through the door.

[laanngo]

“T20.”

What school is ranked 20? Isn't it more reasonable to say T19?

[nixy]

“T20.”

What school is ranked 20? Isn't it more reasonable to say T19?

It's shorthand. Ranks change every year. Everyone knows what category of schools this applies to.

Eastcoast, did any of your classmates from your T25 end up in similar jobs?

[blair.waldorf]

Eastcoast, I have the exact same outcome as you and I have no student loans. It is not necessary or wise to pay sticker at any ol T14 for generic biglaw goals. Now, I am aware I took a gamble by attending a non-T14, and I wouldn’t necessarily recommend it to others. However, if I didn’t take the full scholarship at a school outside the T14, then I would’ve taken a smaller scholarship at a T14. I wouldn’t have paid sticker under any circumstances for generic biglaw.

I am glad it worked out for you, but if you only paid full tuition for two years, you still didn’t pay sticker. The debt you probably ended up with if you had close to a full scholarship for your first year is probably similar to the debt load of someone who goes to a T14 with a small scholarship. I am specifically saying that I don’t think $300k in debt is worth it for any law school absent very specific goals (or a great PSLF program, but I don’t know anything about those because I never looked into that).

[laanngo]

“T20.”

What school is ranked 20? Isn't it more reasonable to say T19?

It's shorthand. Ranks change every year. Everyone knows what category of schools this applies to.

Eastcoast, did any of your classmates from your T25 end up in similar jobs?

Yeah but top 19 is stable but #20 changes a lot which is why I think T19 is much better terminology

[purplegoldtornado]

“T20.”

What school is ranked 20? Isn't it more reasonable to say T19?

It's shorthand. Ranks change every year. Everyone knows what category of schools this applies to.

Eastcoast, did any of your classmates from your T25 end up in similar jobs?

Yeah but top 19 is stable but #20 changes a lot which is why I think T19 is much better terminology

Sarcasm?

[laanngo]

No.

[blair.waldorf]

I turned down Penn because I was nervous about the debt and now am really regretting it. Go as high as you can.

Would you care to explain why you regret it?

Well, I guess this is kind of personal, but for me, I feel like I have always taken the best opportunities that I could have for myself. I have worked my ass off and really hustled to get where I am -- first to undergrad, then to law school, then my grades, and I finally set a ceiling for myself. I think I sold myself short. I didn't get myself go as far as I could, and I will not forgive myself for a very long time.

Do you feel like you’ve genuinely missed out on opportunities you wanted, or do you just wish you had the prestige and arguably limitless possibilities from HYS (even though you may never wish to pursue those options)?

I can actually relate to this a bit. I took a full ride & small stipend to a “T20.” Fortunately, I did well and was able to get exactly what I would have gotten had I gone to a T14 (biglaw at a well-regraded firm in my desired market; I had no interest in some of the super prestigious stuff only available from the very top schools). I graduated debt free. But I still wonder if I should’ve gone to a higher ranked school. Not because things would’ve turned out differently but because I do like the idea of having supposedly limitless options (even if I never pursue them). Sometimes I feel like I set a ceiling for myself.

Then, I remember that I graduated without student loan debt and as a result have a lot of opportunities available that someone who feels shackled to biglaw until they pay down $300k in debt may not have. As of now, the freedom that comes with not starting my professional career six figures in the hole is worth the lack of prestige, limitless options, etc. I’ll let you know if I still feel this way in 5 or 10 years.

Yes, I'll be candid; I wanted the prestige. And FWIW, I come from a T80, which would have even made it a longer jump. What made me stay was that (1) my family (low-income and rural) provided me with no support and (2) I felt like I would end back in the Midwest anyway, so I didn't see any need in transferring, only to come back and where I could have in the first place and be debt-free. However, after striking out of Fall OCI, I am left kind of dumbfounded. But I am not going to let that stop me. I can't control that, and as much as I want to, I can't go back in time and accept Penn. However, I can control my attitude. I've sent out about 150 emails this week to major markets and secondary markets with which I have ties (and more to come). Now it's a game of hustle. By staying here, I bet on myself. I want to make sure that it's a winning bet on the long run.

I’m sorry you’re dealing with this. You have a great attitude, though, and I really think things will work out for you.

A lot of schools pushed OCI to the winter due to COVID-19, right? Maybe firms are waiting to hire for next summer then?

[jackshunger]

I turned down Penn because I was nervous about the debt and now am really regretting it. Go as high as you can.

Would you care to explain why you regret it?

Well, I guess this is kind of personal, but for me, I feel like I have always taken the best opportunities that I could have for myself. I have worked my ass off and really hustled to get where I am -- first to undergrad, then to law school, then my grades, and I finally set a ceiling for myself. I think I sold myself short. I didn't get myself go as far as I could, and I will not forgive myself for a very long time.

Do you feel like you’ve genuinely missed out on opportunities you wanted, or do you just wish you had the prestige and arguably limitless possibilities from HYS (even though you may never wish to pursue those options)?

I can actually relate to this a bit. I took a full ride & small stipend to a “T20.” Fortunately, I did well and was able to get exactly what I would have gotten had I gone to a T14 (biglaw at a well-regraded firm in my desired market; I had no interest in some of the super prestigious stuff only available from the very top schools). I graduated debt free. But I still wonder if I should’ve gone to a higher ranked school. Not because things would’ve turned out differently but because I do like the idea of having supposedly limitless options (even if I never pursue them). Sometimes I feel like I set a ceiling for myself.

Then, I remember that I graduated without student loan debt and as a result have a lot of opportunities available that someone who feels shackled to biglaw until they pay down $300k in debt may not have. As of now, the freedom that comes with not starting my professional career six figures in the hole is worth the lack of prestige, limitless options, etc. I’ll let you know if I still feel this way in 5 or 10 years.

Yes, I'll be candid; I wanted the prestige. And FWIW, I come from a T80, which would have even made it a longer jump. What made me stay was that (1) my family (low-income and rural) provided me with no support and (2) I felt like I would end back in the Midwest anyway, so I didn't see any need in transferring, only to come back and where I could have in the first place and be debt-free. However, after striking out of Fall OCI, I am left kind of dumbfounded. But I am not going to let that stop me. I can't control that, and as much as I want to, I can't go back in time and accept Penn. However, I can control my attitude. I've sent out about 150 emails this week to major markets and secondary markets with which I have ties (and more to come). Now it's a game of hustle. By staying here, I bet on myself. I want to make sure that it's a winning bet on the long run.

I’m sorry you’re dealing with this. You have a great attitude, though, and I really think things will work out for you.

A lot of schools pushed OCI to the winter due to COVID-19, right? Maybe firms are waiting to hire for next summer then?

I'm a little confused by this, if ProudGunner is a 2L now, their OCI should be occuring in winter. I can't think of any places that are hiring now except for plaintiff lit boutiques and government programs. Mass mailing will likely be much more fruitful later in fall, and they still might have a larger OCI program in January.

[purplegoldtornado]

I turned down Penn because I was nervous about the debt and now am really regretting it. Go as high as you can.

Would you care to explain why you regret it?

Well, I guess this is kind of personal, but for me, I feel like I have always taken the best opportunities that I could have for myself. I have worked my ass off and really hustled to get where I am -- first to undergrad, then to law school, then my grades, and I finally set a ceiling for myself. I think I sold myself short. I didn't get myself go as far as I could, and I will not forgive myself for a very long time.

Do you feel like you’ve genuinely missed out on opportunities you wanted, or do you just wish you had the prestige and arguably limitless possibilities from HYS (even though you may never wish to pursue those options)?

I can actually relate to this a bit. I took a full ride & small stipend to a “T20.” Fortunately, I did well and was able to get exactly what I would have gotten had I gone to a T14 (biglaw at a well-regraded firm in my desired market; I had no interest in some of the super prestigious stuff only available from the very top schools). I graduated debt free. But I still wonder if I should’ve gone to a higher ranked school. Not because things would’ve turned out differently but because I do like the idea of having supposedly limitless options (even if I never pursue them). Sometimes I feel like I set a ceiling for myself.

Then, I remember that I graduated without student loan debt and as a result have a lot of opportunities available that someone who feels shackled to biglaw until they pay down $300k in debt may not have. As of now, the freedom that comes with not starting my professional career six figures in the hole is worth the lack of prestige, limitless options, etc. I’ll let you know if I still feel this way in 5 or 10 years.

Yes, I'll be candid; I wanted the prestige. And FWIW, I come from a T80, which would have even made it a longer jump. What made me stay was that (1) my family (low-income and rural) provided me with no support and (2) I felt like I would end back in the Midwest anyway, so I didn't see any need in transferring, only to come back and where I could have in the first place and be debt-free. However, after striking out of Fall OCI, I am left kind of dumbfounded. But I am not going to let that stop me. I can't control that, and as much as I want to, I can't go back in time and accept Penn. However, I can control my attitude. I've sent out about 150 emails this week to major markets and secondary markets with which I have ties (and more to come). Now it's a game of hustle. By staying here, I bet on myself. I want to make sure that it's a winning bet on the long run.

I’m sorry you’re dealing with this. You have a great attitude, though, and I really think things will work out for you.

A lot of schools pushed OCI to the winter due to COVID-19, right? Maybe firms are waiting to hire for next summer then?

I'm a little confused by this, if ProudGunner is a 2L now, their OCI should be occuring in winter. I can't think of any places that are hiring now except for plaintiff lit boutiques and government programs. Mass mailing will likely be much more fruitful later in fall, and they still might have a larger OCI program in January.

It's true -- we had fall OCIs. I am not going to comment on their merits of such a decision as I don't want to put down my school's choice, but yes, we just had Fall OCIs. I was denied at every firm I interviewed with, except one small firm, where I had a callback last week and think I will likely get an offer this week. (I am going to be put in a very tough spot, choosing between settling for an offer now or gambling and waiting until the big firms start doing their bulk hiring.)

[jackshunger]

It's true -- we had fall OCIs. I am not going to comment on their merits of such a decision as I don't want to put down my school's choice, but yes, we just had Fall OCIs. I was denied at every firm I interviewed with, except one small firm, where I had a callback last week and think I will likely get an offer this week. (I am going to be put in a very tough spot, choosing between settling for an offer now or gambling and waiting until the big firms start doing their bulk hiring.)

We can safely state the decision was really stupid, but I'm hopeful you can pull something out here. There should be more openings later for mass mailing as well. You should also be able to ask for more time to decide, if you get the offer from the small firm this week.