What's So Great About Biglaw? Forum

[HarveySpecterr]

Despite what strict adherents to the TLS religion believe, in certain markets a T14 law degree is no stronger, even sometimes not as strong, as a degree from a local 2nd tier school that everyone in town is proud of. I currently live in a small city of about 200,000, where the local law school is the state flagship university, and the only school in the state with a higher ranking is a top 20 private school that kicks the local, flagship school's second-tier butt. However a quick perusal of the website of all the BigLaw firms in town reveals that they hire almost exclusively out of the local state school (which is ranked in the 50's). These are firms where the senior partners all graduated from this same place, and the mile-long list of associates did too.

At the little diner where I eat breakfast in the morning, I often find myself sitting next to an ancient lawyer named Arthur -- a very nice guy -- who is a name partner at one of these places with over 200 attorneys. One morning I asked him, "if your firm were hiring a new associate, how much preference, if any, would you give a candidate from [top-20 private school] over one from [2nd tier flagship university]? His answer?

"None."

"We wouldn't even consider that," he said; "most of us, myself included, went to [flagship university]. It's a great school; we'd look at other things."

This is exactly what I too have observed. In Sacramento, that regional flagship school is McGeorge School of Law (Pacific). It's not UC Davis or UC Irvine, even though those schools have much higher USNWR rankings. The school in Sacramento that employers all know and respect a degree from is McGeorge. There are more attorney's at my firm from McGeorge than any other school. The kids from McGeorge are working alongside the kids from Michigan or Virginia or Chicago. The same is true throughout the city. A degree from McGeorge isn't worth much outside of Sacramento, but it is great in this city, and you can get a full ride to go there.

I did my undergrad in San Diego, so I spent some time in that area and worked with lawyers as part of my job. University of San Diego is their flagship law school, and there are more attorney's I knew in San Diego from USD than any other school. USNWR rankings had nothing to do with it.

There's also ideological representation. For instance, I'm a libertarian, and I know that organizations like the Institute for Justice and the Cato Institute respect each other's hiring choices. If you've worked at one, you have a good chance at working for another. They stick together and a letter of recommendation from one gets you taken at another.

As an extreme example, my organization is conservative, and one of our attorney's is from Ave Maria Law, which is the most conservative/Catholic law school in the country, even though it's also an absolutely terrible (tier 4) school. They literally offer full ride scholarships for a 150 LSAT. Barf. But none of that matters, since she got conservative contacts from that school and now has a job doing important work in federal courts.

All of this is to say, if you intend to work regionally, or in public interest/ideologically motivated law, going to a t14 school is less valuable than region and ideology. That's why my first step in this process is to determine if BigLaw is what I want. If it is, then obviously the conventional wisdom applies. I would need to go to a top school like Northwestern, and then come out with a big salary at a connected BigLaw firm. But if BigLaw is not what I want (and I don't think it is) then all that stuff goes out the window. Look, I've taken some shit in this thread for not laying down and taking the TLS teachings as law, but that's because they're based on a central premise that does not apply to us all. I agree that those conventional means do work and are correct IF you are actually trying to get BigLaw. But if that is not the goal, then this oversimplified "go to t14, get biglaw, make money!" idea isn't necessary. Hence the existence of this thread.

For my purposes, a degree from a conservative school like Notre Dame (hell even Ave Maria) or a degree from a regional school like McGeorge will accomplish the same outcomes, almost certainly for less money than a t14.

Fwiw, you haven't taken any more shit in this thread than these shit-givers dish out quite regularly. Shit-giving is someone like Cavalier's modus operandi -- he'll argue like Daffy Duck with Bugs Bunny. (e.g. please show me one "t14 or bust thread," are you kidding?) It's all good for a big lol. Don't take it personally. Trust your gut on this stuff; if you're working in a law firm alongside some good people, you know what's up.

[cavalier1138]

Fwiw, you haven't taken any more shit in this thread than these shit-givers dish out quite regularly. Shit-giving is someone like Cavalier's modus operandi -- he'll argue like Daffy Duck with Bugs Bunny. (e.g. please show me one "t14 or bust thread," are you kidding?) It's all good for a big lol. Don't take it personally. Trust your gut on this stuff; if you're working in a law firm alongside some good people, you know what's up.

So... about showing that "T14 or bust" thread? Any chance of you doing that any time soon? Or are you having trouble finding a thread where someone was advised to go to the T14 when their career goals didn't line up with that?

By the way, OP: don't tell real PI lawyers that you work for PLF. Even among people who have a broad definition of what "public interest" means, that organization's mission is a joke.

[luckyirish13]

By the way, OP: don't tell real PI lawyers that you work for PLF. Even among people who have a broad definition of what "public interest" means, that organization's mission is a joke.

Duly noted. Thank you Daffy Duck. <3

[A. Nony Mouse]

All of this is to say, if you intend to work regionally, or in public interest/ideologically motivated law, going to a t14 school is less valuable than region and ideology.

The thing is that the universe of ideologically motivated law jobs is pretty small, and most people aren't aiming for them. (I would distinguish between PI generally and ideologically-motivated jobs - even if only in degree. There are some "ideological" jobs that appeal to enough people, they're still hugely competitive.) So, sure, people with very specific, narrow goals engage in a different calculus than many other applicants.

As for the "the local biglaw firms only hire out of the local flagship" - that may be the case, but you also need to look at how many people graduating out of the local flagship each year actually get those biglaw jobs. That local biglaw firms hire only out of that school isn't hugely reassuring if that's like 15 people out of a class of 150 or something.

[BlendedUnicorn]

I mean all you have to do is look at employment statistics. It's not like there are an evenly distributed number of entry level legal jobs across all salaries and the only difference between schools is how much money their graduates make. Getting a job is step 1. Schools that place well into big law place into the largest, most predictable "market" in the country.

So actually yeah, OP, if you have a job lined up and that's what you really want to do, go wherever you want and just try to keep your debt down. But that's not the stock advice here because public interest law firms or whatever are not reliable sources of jobs for the vast majority of law graduates.

[mjb447]

As for the "the local biglaw firms only hire out of the local flagship" - that may be the case, but you also need to look at how many people graduating out of the local flagship each year actually get those biglaw jobs. That local biglaw firms hire only out of that school isn't hugely reassuring if that's like 15 people out of a class of 150 or something.

+1. Don't know if it's going on ITT (haven't been following closely or looked at employment data for any of the schools), but a lot of times the "local flagship" turns out to give its graduates not-very-good odds of being a lawyer of any kind after graduation, and whoever's asking about it suggests that that can't be true because two dozen partners at [local firm] went to this law school, so jobs MUST be out there if you just hustle.

[luckyirish13]

I mean all you have to do is look at employment statistics. It's not like there are an evenly distributed number of entry level legal jobs across all salaries and the only difference between schools is how much money their graduates make. Getting a job is step 1. Schools that place well into big law place into the largest, most predictable "market" in the country.

So actually yeah, OP, if you have a job lined up and that's what you really want to do, go wherever you want and just try to keep your debt down. But that's not the stock advice here because public interest law firms or whatever are not reliable sources of jobs for the vast majority of law graduates.

I agree with that. I see the wisdom behind most people going t14 or bust, but if my whole job prospect was to work in a big law firm, I'd rather just not go to law school at all. That's a purely subjective thing, and I don't begrudge others wanting to be in BigLaw, I just wanted to know if there was some sort of thing I was missing that might have turned me on to the concept.

@A Nony Mouse, it's true that the universe of such jobs is small, and usually you have to know people who know people in order to get them. That's why I'm comfortable saying that I have a different situation than most, because I do know people who know people in my ideal target jobs. If I can supplement that with a degree from a school we all respect, I will have good prospects with continuing in this industry. Notre Dame would be that.

Also with regards to regional schools, they may only get certain people hired by BigLaw, but I would only be going to a regional school assuming a full ride scholarship, meaning there would be little to lose. Once in a regional school, I should have one of the best GPA's in a regional school considering I'd be overqualified compared to the other applicants, so out of the 10% the local BigLaw firm hires, as long as I have been keeping on top of schoolwork, I would presumably be one of their top targets.

@Mjb: At McGeorge, 74% are hired after graduation. It's not great, but decent, especially if you're one of the ones who is committed to do well. Also part of the lower numbers is that they do have a lower standard for admittance, so some people just aren't as good.

[sublime]

OP, do come back in four years and update us on your life. Good luck!

I really miss when we word filtered retake and replaced it with good luck, follow your dreams! For a day or whatever we did.

[BlendedUnicorn]

I'd rather just not go to law school at all.

This is generally the best advice.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Also with regards to regional schools, they may only get certain people hired by BigLaw, but I would only be going to a regional school assuming a full ride scholarship, meaning there would be little to lose. Once in a regional school, I should have one of the best GPA's in a regional school considering I'd be overqualified compared to the other applicants, so out of the 10% the local BigLaw firm hires, as long as I have been keeping on top of schoolwork, I would presumably be one of their top targets.

Eh, it's actually pretty hard to predict that kind of thing. I also don't think anyone's said you shouldn't go to ND with a full scholarship, so I guess I'm not really sure what you're arguing against?

Edit: also not sure where you're getting 74% for McGeorge: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/pacific/ has it at 46.1% of 2015 grads employed in law jobs, and 65.8% employed at all. 2.2% of grads were in big firms. Plus it costs about $300k, which is ridiculous.

[BlendedUnicorn]

Also with regards to regional schools, they may only get certain people hired by BigLaw, but I would only be going to a regional school assuming a full ride scholarship, meaning there would be little to lose. Once in a regional school, I should have one of the best GPA's in a regional school considering I'd be overqualified compared to the other applicants, so out of the 10% the local BigLaw firm hires, as long as I have been keeping on top of schoolwork, I would presumably be one of their top targets.

Eh, it's actually pretty hard to predict that kind of thing. I also don't think anyone's said you shouldn't go to ND with a full scholarship, so I guess I'm not really sure what you're arguing against?

Edit: also not sure where you're getting 74% for McGeorge: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/pacific/

Also this is a terrible terrible assumption.

[sublime]

Mcgeorge is definitely a shithole.

[BigZuck]

Also with regards to regional schools, they may only get certain people hired by BigLaw, but I would only be going to a regional school assuming a full ride scholarship, meaning there would be little to lose. Once in a regional school, I should have one of the best GPA's in a regional school considering I'd be overqualified compared to the other applicants, so out of the 10% the local BigLaw firm hires, as long as I have been keeping on top of schoolwork, I would presumably be one of their top targets.

Eh, it's actually pretty hard to predict that kind of thing. I also don't think anyone's said you shouldn't go to ND with a full scholarship, so I guess I'm not really sure what you're arguing against?

Edit: also not sure where you're getting 74% for McGeorge: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/pacific/

What the mouse meant to say is to make sure you don't go to a school with one of those commie con law profs cuz your UNDOUBTEDLY WELL PRINCIPLED libertarian thoughts/beliefs/values are going to get you submedian pwned and then there goes your fated top 10% ranking

If you can find another conservative nut to teach you Con Law you'll be golden though.

[luckyirish13]

Also with regards to regional schools, they may only get certain people hired by BigLaw, but I would only be going to a regional school assuming a full ride scholarship, meaning there would be little to lose. Once in a regional school, I should have one of the best GPA's in a regional school considering I'd be overqualified compared to the other applicants, so out of the 10% the local BigLaw firm hires, as long as I have been keeping on top of schoolwork, I would presumably be one of their top targets.

Eh, it's actually pretty hard to predict that kind of thing. I also don't think anyone's said you shouldn't go to ND with a full scholarship, so I guess I'm not really sure what you're arguing against?

Edit: also not sure where you're getting 74% for McGeorge: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/pacific/

Well yeah the goal is ND on scholarship. Got a year to make that happen.

Huh, Princeton Review had em at a 74% last I checked. Either way, they're lower on my list, but they'd still work for the jobs I'm looking at.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Also with regards to regional schools, they may only get certain people hired by BigLaw, but I would only be going to a regional school assuming a full ride scholarship, meaning there would be little to lose. Once in a regional school, I should have one of the best GPA's in a regional school considering I'd be overqualified compared to the other applicants, so out of the 10% the local BigLaw firm hires, as long as I have been keeping on top of schoolwork, I would presumably be one of their top targets.

Eh, it's actually pretty hard to predict that kind of thing. I also don't think anyone's said you shouldn't go to ND with a full scholarship, so I guess I'm not really sure what you're arguing against?

Edit: also not sure where you're getting 74% for McGeorge: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/pacific/

Well yeah the goal is ND on scholarship. Got a year to make that happen.

Huh, Princeton Review had em at a 74% last I checked. Either way, they're lower on my list, but they'd still work for the jobs I'm looking at.

Princeton Review is useless.

[zot1]

Also with regards to regional schools, they may only get certain people hired by BigLaw, but I would only be going to a regional school assuming a full ride scholarship, meaning there would be little to lose. Once in a regional school, I should have one of the best GPA's in a regional school considering I'd be overqualified compared to the other applicants, so out of the 10% the local BigLaw firm hires, as long as I have been keeping on top of schoolwork, I would presumably be one of their top targets.

Eh, it's actually pretty hard to predict that kind of thing. I also don't think anyone's said you shouldn't go to ND with a full scholarship, so I guess I'm not really sure what you're arguing against?

Edit: also not sure where you're getting 74% for McGeorge: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/pacific/

Well yeah the goal is ND on scholarship. Got a year to make that happen.

Huh, Princeton Review had em at a 74% last I checked. Either way, they're lower on my list, but they'd still work for the jobs I'm looking at.

Princeton Review All of this is useless.

[cavalier1138]

Either way, they're lower on my list, but they'd still work for the jobs I'm looking at.

Unless you end up in the half of the class that doesn't get to work as a lawyer. Or the chunk that's just flat-out unemployed.

But yes, if you ignore that half of the class, it's an awesome school with great local outcomes.

[lawlorbust]

Premise: ND Law is meh. (McGeorge flat out sucks.)
Premise: OP is absolutely insufferable.
Premise: I'd rather see OP at ND / McGeorge than have him suck up a spot at a real law school.

Conclusion: OP should continue following his dreams.

[Moneytrees]

The notion that OP is locked out from California if he attends ND is ludicrous. It has a strong network in California.

I'm not suggesting OP should go to ND without a good scholarship. I don't think anybody should go to ND without a large scholarship. But if he can get a good deal and graduate with little debt, it's a perfectly defensible decision.

EDIT:
Unless OP wants to do Biglaw (which I don't think he wants to do). If you want California Biglaw, that probably isn't happening from ND.

[luckyirish13]

The notion that OP is locked out from California if he attends ND is ludicrous. It has a strong network in California.

I'm not suggesting OP should go to ND without a good scholarship. I don't think anybody should go to ND without a large scholarship. But if he can get a good deal and graduate with little debt, it's a perfectly defensible decision.

EDIT:
Unless OP wants to do Biglaw (which I don't think he wants to do). If you want California Biglaw, that probably isn't happening from ND.

all of this is correct. Notre Dame works great for Northern California law, but not for Northern California BigLaw.

IF I discover that I do want Biglaw, (which would require a change in mindset off of what I see during law school) I would want it in St. Louis or Indianapolis, both of which are accessible through Notre Dame.

[Moneytrees]

The notion that OP is locked out from California if he attends ND is ludicrous. It has a strong network in California.

I'm not suggesting OP should go to ND without a good scholarship. I don't think anybody should go to ND without a large scholarship. But if he can get a good deal and graduate with little debt, it's a perfectly defensible decision.

EDIT:
Unless OP wants to do Biglaw (which I don't think he wants to do). If you want California Biglaw, that probably isn't happening from ND.

all of this is correct. Notre Dame works great for Northern California law, but not for Northern California BigLaw.

IF I discover that I do want Biglaw, (which would require a change in mindset off of what I see during law school) I would want it in St. Louis or Indianapolis, both of which are accessible through Notre Dame.

Negative. ND does place a decent amount of grads into regional biglaw firms in the Midwest, but landing one of those jobs would be unlikely for you since you are from California. Seriously, the Midwest is insanely insular. You'd have to be in the top 10 or 15% to even have a shot.

[luckyirish13]

Negative. ND does place a decent amount of grads into regional biglaw firms in the Midwest, but landing one of those jobs would be unlikely for you since you are from California. Seriously, the Midwest is insanely insular. You'd have to be in the top 10 or 15% to even have a shot.

huh, I didn't know this. I have lived in St. Louis and my Mom is from there so I have contacts in the city. Is that not gonna cut it?

[Moneytrees]

Negative. ND does place a decent amount of grads into regional biglaw firms in the Midwest, but landing one of those jobs would be unlikely for you since you are from California. Seriously, the Midwest is insanely insular. You'd have to be in the top 10 or 15% to even have a shot.

huh, I didn't know this. I have lived in St. Louis and my Mom is from there so I have contacts in the city. Is that not gonna cut it?

Probably not. Plus, St. Louis has a tiny Biglaw market so even if you grew up there it would be foolish to believe you would be one of the few people from ND to land one of those jobs. Even WUSTL grads struggle to land Biglaw there.

[luckyirish13]

Negative. ND does place a decent amount of grads into regional biglaw firms in the Midwest, but landing one of those jobs would be unlikely for you since you are from California. Seriously, the Midwest is insanely insular. You'd have to be in the top 10 or 15% to even have a shot.

huh, I didn't know this. I have lived in St. Louis and my Mom is from there so I have contacts in the city. Is that not gonna cut it?

Probably not. Plus, St. Louis has a tiny Biglaw market so even if you grew up there it would be foolish to believe you would be one of the few people from ND to land one of those jobs. Even WUSTL grads struggle to land Biglaw there.

That's helpful to know. So if BigLaw does become part of my interest, Notre Dame doesn't have great odds for me even at a local level without being from the Midwest for a long period of time.

So with that said, would someone like to make an argument that actually reaches out to me/convinces me, about what makes BigLaw so great?

[guynourmin]

would someone like to make an argument that actually reaches out to me/convinces me, about what makes BigLaw so great?

No, I don't think anyone wants to do that. No one is saying its "so great", no one is saying you need to want to do it. You can have your own goals. Do you want someone to convince you to want biglaw?