Is there an undergrad GPA buffer for coming from a difficult undergrad? Forum

[jnwa]

I'm at U of Toronto and most courses in my social sciences major are curved to a 2.3 average, engineering is probably worse tbh. I still think it's weird that so much weight is placed on CGPA with the crazy variation.

[abl]

I don't want to speak for Zuch but I can confirm that most of these schools are just whatever rando schools. And yeah they aren't going to give people admissions boosts because that's not how law school admissions works.

Zuck, sorry, I'm on my phone.

That is how law school admissions works, at least at HYSCCN and at least a few others (B?). And no, those aren't rando schools. Spend some time googling and you'll see that Swarthmore, Amherst, Williams, etc outperform all but a very very few universities on any relevant measure. You not knowing what they are doesn't make them worthless.

[JonTheMandamus]

You get a boost if you outperformed people with your major from your own undergrad. That probably has a much larger relevance than what undergrad you went to. Ad comms have trump level huge amounts of data to go off.

[BigZuck]

You're not doing too good with the reading here my dude

But yes, you are very very prestigious as always. We acknowledge your prestigiousness.

I can't remember what the original point of this thread was but for anyone wondering about their GPA and amorphous "bumps": try not to stress about stuff too much, assume that your GPA is what it is and retake the LSAT if that will help you.

[abl]

You're not doing too good with the reading here my dude

But yes, you are very very prestigious as always. We acknowledge your prestigiousness.

I can't remember what the original point of this thread was but for anyone wondering about their GPA and amorphous "bumps": try not to stress about stuff too much, assume that your GPA is what it is and retake the LSAT if that will help you.

The whole point I'm trying to make is that prestige isn't the defining factor here. Nobody's arguing that Carleton is equally as prestigious as, say, Cornell.

[A. Nony Mouse]

It is in Minnesota.

(Which isn't to get into a pissing match about prestige, just to point out that it's always context-dependent and so these conversations always continue to be pointless.)

To go back to the OP's question, I'm willing to believe that there are some schools that provide a slight bump, but it's probably a much smaller number than applicants would like it to be, and it shouldn't really govern where you choose to apply.

[Hikikomorist]

It is in Minnesota.

(Which isn't to get into a pissing match about prestige, just to point out that it's always context-dependent and so these conversations always continue to be pointless.)

To go back to the OP's question, I'm willing to believe that there are some schools that provide a slight bump, but it's probably a much smaller number than applicants would like it to be, and it shouldn't really govern where you choose to apply.

I also think it is within the LAC circle and maybe even within the circle of highly ranked colleges overall.

[fliptrip]

Prestige debates...objectively dumb, yet somehow irresistible.

Aren't there really just three categories of schools? "Oh that's impressive", "Okay", as in, you tell me you went there and I say "ok" and we go on to something else, and "I doubt your basic competence"?

For instance...here are your exemplars:

Oh that's impressive: Princeton
Okay: Not Penn State...hell, I'll throw another one in, Penn State
I doubt your basic competence: U. of Phoenix

Sorting within these categories is really meaningless, but I think the categories offer some pretty bright lines.

[JonTheMandamus]

Prestige debates...objectively dumb, yet somehow irresistible.

Aren't there really just three categories of schools? "Oh that's impressive", "Okay", as in, you tell me you went there and I say "ok" and we go on to something else, and "I doubt your basic competence"?

For instance...here are your exemplars:

Oh that's impressive: Princeton
Okay: Not Penn State...hell, I'll throw another one in, Penn State
I doubt your basic competence: U. of Phoenix

Sorting within these categories is really meaningless, but I think the categories offer some pretty bright lines.

Where does trump university fit into your bright line test? (sorry couldn't resist another trump plug)

[fliptrip]

Prestige debates...objectively dumb, yet somehow irresistible.

Aren't there really just three categories of schools? "Oh that's impressive", "Okay", as in, you tell me you went there and I say "ok" and we go on to something else, and "I doubt your basic competence"?

For instance...here are your exemplars:

Oh that's impressive: Princeton
Okay: Not Penn State...hell, I'll throw another one in, Penn State
I doubt your basic competence: U. of Phoenix

Sorting within these categories is really meaningless, but I think the categories offer some pretty bright lines.

Where does trump university fit into your bright line test? (sorry couldn't resist another trump plug)

You know where that fits, so don't play games...it fits in AMAZING and FANTASTIC

[87mm]

IMO depending on school/major it could be a very very minor consideration. For example, if you are below median but above 25% it may bump you to the median equivalent. Typically it wont make a huge difference later in the cycle, but earlier it may since schools are more lenient I hear.

I went to a top 5 engineering program (ranked 2nd in my field behind MIT) and ended up with a 3.65. The average GPA in my major was below a 3.0. In my school getting Honors was a 3.2, High Honors a 3.4 and Highest Honor was a 3.55 (I had a 3.53 degree GPA argh).


I didnt underperform my numbers, but I wouldnt say I overperformed much either. LSAT is unfortunately a huge factor. If I had 2 points higher on my LSAT I would have had a much much better cycle.

Is your school a top 5 school overall (eg Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Princeton, Columbia, etc) or a top school in the specific area in which you majored? Adcoms do some accounting for hard and top schools, but I don't get the sense that they do that on a departmental level. For example, Nebraska might be the #2 chemical engineering program in the country by some measures (no idea if that's true) and be overall respectable, but law schools aren't going to account for that.

Also, Zuch, you not having heard of a place doesn't make it not prestigious. More to the point, you not having heard of a place doesn't make it non-advantageous for law school admissions purposes. Carleton is undoubtedly less well known than some place like Nebraska, and it is undoubtedly a better place to be applying with a 3.7.

Finally, I'm skeptical about for how many undergrads law schools will make some sort of grade adjustment. Princeton, Caltech, Williams, sure. Skidmore is a great school but I suspect you're not going to get bonus points for going there.

Top 5 engineering overall. 2nd in my major. It isnt top 5 overall which will have more weight, but my school still has some impact I believe.

[fliptrip]

And let me plug my test one more time...it will free us from the horror of an actual discussion involved in comparing the prestige of Cornell to Carleton!!!!! Why? Because both are okay!!!!

And since I'm TLS-addicted and now I've got my dander up...I'll throw out the sacred few impressive schools:

Harvard
Princeton
Yale
Stanford
MIT, and lemme tell ya, MIT is barely hanging on here.

[Instinctive]

Prestige debates...objectively dumb, yet somehow irresistible.

Aren't there really just three categories of schools? "Oh that's impressive", "Okay", as in, you tell me you went there and I say "ok" and we go on to something else, and "I doubt your basic competence"?

For instance...here are your exemplars:

Oh that's impressive: Princeton
Okay: Not Penn State...hell, I'll throw another one in, Penn State
I doubt your basic competence: U. of Phoenix

Sorting within these categories is really meaningless, but I think the categories offer some pretty bright lines.

Where does trump university fit into your bright line test? (sorry couldn't resist another trump plug)

You know where that fits, so don't play games...it fits in AMAZING and FANTASTIC

They teach the best words there.

[abl]

IMO depending on school/major it could be a very very minor consideration. For example, if you are below median but above 25% it may bump you to the median equivalent. Typically it wont make a huge difference later in the cycle, but earlier it may since schools are more lenient I hear.

I went to a top 5 engineering program (ranked 2nd in my field behind MIT) and ended up with a 3.65. The average GPA in my major was below a 3.0. In my school getting Honors was a 3.2, High Honors a 3.4 and Highest Honor was a 3.55 (I had a 3.53 degree GPA argh).


I didnt underperform my numbers, but I wouldnt say I overperformed much either. LSAT is unfortunately a huge factor. If I had 2 points higher on my LSAT I would have had a much much better cycle.

Is your school a top 5 school overall (eg Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Princeton, Columbia, etc) or a top school in the specific area in which you majored? Adcoms do some accounting for hard and top schools, but I don't get the sense that they do that on a departmental level. For example, Nebraska might be the #2 chemical engineering program in the country by some measures (no idea if that's true) and be overall respectable, but law schools aren't going to account for that.

Also, Zuch, you not having heard of a place doesn't make it not prestigious. More to the point, you not having heard of a place doesn't make it non-advantageous for law school admissions purposes. Carleton is undoubtedly less well known than some place like Nebraska, and it is undoubtedly a better place to be applying with a 3.7.

Finally, I'm skeptical about for how many undergrads law schools will make some sort of grade adjustment. Princeton, Caltech, Williams, sure. Skidmore is a great school but I suspect you're not going to get bonus points for going there.

Top 5 engineering overall. 2nd in my major. It isnt top 5 overall which will have more weight, but my school still has some impact I believe.

But that's my point (and it seems to be supported by your earlier post). The fact that your school is good at engineering and is particularly good at your type of engineering would likely be relevant for getting an engineering job. It is not relevant for law school admissions. Your experience of not over performing your numbers supports that.

So, for example, it's easy to imagine someone at Princeton (a top 5 overall university) getting a 3.8 in a major that Princeton is weak in (let's say 50th best). And someone else at Carnegy Mellon (not a top 5 overall university) majoring in something that Carnegy Mellon is strong in (let's say 2nd best) with a 3.8 GPA. I guarantee that the Princeton grad is going to do better at law school admissions every single time, all else being equal. Adcoms generally know what the best couple of schools are and care. Adcoms are not, however, keeping up with program strengths (and I'm not sure they care, as program strengths rankings are inconsistent and not generally that highly regarded). To the extent that there are some schools--like Carnegy Mellon--known for being particularly good at one or two things, and you major in one of those things, this might matter on the margins (but probably less so still than going to Princeton). But don't expect that being a business accounting major from a school that ranks highly in business accounting, but not otherwise, is going to make any sort of an impact.

I agree with A Nony Mouse: undergrad matters, but almost certainly for fewer schools than most people think (and to a lesser extent than most people hope). If you went to one of the five or ten or fifteen schools with a legitimate claim to being the best in the country, you're probably more likely than not to outperform your GPA. Otherwise, this is a pretty darn weak soft.

[JonTheMandamus]

IMO depending on school/major it could be a very very minor consideration. For example, if you are below median but above 25% it may bump you to the median equivalent. Typically it wont make a huge difference later in the cycle, but earlier it may since schools are more lenient I hear.

I went to a top 5 engineering program (ranked 2nd in my field behind MIT) and ended up with a 3.65. The average GPA in my major was below a 3.0. In my school getting Honors was a 3.2, High Honors a 3.4 and Highest Honor was a 3.55 (I had a 3.53 degree GPA argh).


I didnt underperform my numbers, but I wouldnt say I overperformed much either. LSAT is unfortunately a huge factor. If I had 2 points higher on my LSAT I would have had a much much better cycle.

Is your school a top 5 school overall (eg Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Princeton, Columbia, etc) or a top school in the specific area in which you majored? Adcoms do some accounting for hard and top schools, but I don't get the sense that they do that on a departmental level. For example, Nebraska might be the #2 chemical engineering program in the country by some measures (no idea if that's true) and be overall respectable, but law schools aren't going to account for that.

Also, Zuch, you not having heard of a place doesn't make it not prestigious. More to the point, you not having heard of a place doesn't make it non-advantageous for law school admissions purposes. Carleton is undoubtedly less well known than some place like Nebraska, and it is undoubtedly a better place to be applying with a 3.7.

Finally, I'm skeptical about for how many undergrads law schools will make some sort of grade adjustment. Princeton, Caltech, Williams, sure. Skidmore is a great school but I suspect you're not going to get bonus points for going there.

Top 5 engineering overall. 2nd in my major. It isnt top 5 overall which will have more weight, but my school still has some impact I believe.

But that's my point (and it seems to be supported by your earlier post). The fact that your school is good at engineering and is particularly good at your type of engineering would likely be relevant for getting an engineering job. It is not relevant for law school admissions. Your experience of not over performing your numbers supports that.

So, for example, it's easy to imagine someone at Princeton (a top 5 overall university) getting a 3.8 in a major that Princeton is weak in (let's say 50th best). And someone else at Carnegy Mellon (not a top 5 overall university) majoring in something that Carnegy Mellon is strong in (let's say 2nd best) with a 3.8 GPA. I guarantee that the Princeton grad is going to do better at law school admissions every single time, all else being equal. Adcoms generally know what the best couple of schools are and care. Adcoms are not, however, keeping up with program strengths (and I'm not sure they care, as program strengths rankings are inconsistent and not generally that highly regarded). To the extent that there are some schools--like Carnegy Mellon--known for being particularly good at one or two things, and you major in one of those things, this might matter on the margins (but probably less so still than going to Princeton). But don't expect that being a business accounting major from a school that ranks highly in business accounting, but not otherwise, is going to make any sort of an impact.

I agree with A Nony Mouse: undergrad matters, but almost certainly for fewer schools than most people think (and to a lesser extent than most people hope). If you went to one of the five or ten or fifteen schools with a legitimate claim to being the best in the country, you're probably more likely than not to outperform your GPA. Otherwise, this is a pretty darn weak soft.

I think going to a top undergraduate simply allows one to be the token student from that undergrad that law schools can put into their class profiles. I think the GPA factors more into the ad comms figuring out whether you have a legitimate shot at even higher ranked law schools. So if you're HYS and you're getting a couple hundred apps from top undergrads, you get your pick. As you move down the law school rankings, your access to applicants from top undergrads becomes more limited. So if you're a low gpa applicant from a top undergrad, that's where ad comms might look the other way on your gpa. But I don't think they go oh hey you went to X school, let's boost the gpa 0.2.

[jbagelboy]

There's no shortage of "top undergrads" for t6/14 law schools though. For example, over 1/3 of my law school class were Ivy alums. If you throw in the most selective LACs and comparable private universities from abl's list like amherst, pomona, hopkins, duke, then its the vast majority; include the best known public universities and its almost everyone.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

This thread is aggressively autistic.

You people are really gonna be in your thirties one day convincing a bored guy at a party that Williams is prestigious, aren't you?

[Minnietron]

Where does trump university fit into your bright line test? (sorry couldn't resist another trump plug)

You know where that fits, so don't play games...it fits in AMAZING and FANTASTIC

Don't forget the YUUUUUUGE admissions bump you get! I'll show myself out...

IMO depending on school/major it could be a very very minor consideration. For example, if you are below median but above 25% it may bump you to the median equivalent. Typically it wont make a huge difference later in the cycle, but earlier it may since schools are more lenient I hear.

I went to a top 5 engineering program (ranked 2nd in my field behind MIT) and ended up with a 3.65. The average GPA in my major was below a 3.0. In my school getting Honors was a 3.2, High Honors a 3.4 and Highest Honor was a 3.55 (I had a 3.53 degree GPA argh).

I didnt underperform my numbers, but I wouldnt say I overperformed much either. LSAT is unfortunately a huge factor. If I had 2 points higher on my LSAT I would have had a much much better cycle.

Top 5 engineering overall. 2nd in my major. It isnt top 5 overall which will have more weight, but my school still has some impact I believe.

Don't engineers like working with hard data and facts? Your self-delivered anecdotal evidence shows no indication of a bump, and you haven't provided any data outside of: "IMO," "I hear," and "I believe." No wonder you didn't get highest honors.

[87mm]

Where does trump university fit into your bright line test? (sorry couldn't resist another trump plug)

You know where that fits, so don't play games...it fits in AMAZING and FANTASTIC

Don't forget the YUUUUUUGE admissions bump you get! I'll show myself out...

IMO depending on school/major it could be a very very minor consideration. For example, if you are below median but above 25% it may bump you to the median equivalent. Typically it wont make a huge difference later in the cycle, but earlier it may since schools are more lenient I hear.

I went to a top 5 engineering program (ranked 2nd in my field behind MIT) and ended up with a 3.65. The average GPA in my major was below a 3.0. In my school getting Honors was a 3.2, High Honors a 3.4 and Highest Honor was a 3.55 (I had a 3.53 degree GPA argh).

I didnt underperform my numbers, but I wouldnt say I overperformed much either. LSAT is unfortunately a huge factor. If I had 2 points higher on my LSAT I would have had a much much better cycle.

Top 5 engineering overall. 2nd in my major. It isnt top 5 overall which will have more weight, but my school still has some impact I believe.

Don't engineers like working with hard data and facts? Your self-delivered anecdotal evidence shows no indication of a bump, and you haven't provided any data outside of: "IMO," "I hear," and "I believe." No wonder you didn't get highest honors.

Well yeah, I did say it was a very very minor consideration. May be the difference between two candidates at the same lsat/gpa. LSAT and GPA are still king of course. I was non traditional so I have no idea how I compared to other similar applicants. I did better than expected but I didnt end up with an out of place Yale acceptance.

As for highest honors... yeah, I can trace my GPA drop to one mistake on a test that held me back from getting an A in a course. Still want to shoot myself for it.

[krads153]

And let me plug my test one more time...it will free us from the horror of an actual discussion involved in comparing the prestige of Cornell to Carleton!!!!! Why? Because both are okay!!!!

And since I'm TLS-addicted and now I've got my dander up...I'll throw out the sacred few impressive schools:

Harvard
Princeton
Yale
Stanford
MIT, and lemme tell ya, MIT is barely hanging on here.

You forgot Caltech - hardest core curriculum out of any US school.....their remedial math is Dif Eq (or as some schools name it, calculus 3). Pretty much everyone who enters as a freshman has taken 2 years of calc, plus dif eq, plus linear algebra. And everyone has to take I believe two semesters of hard Physics (even if you're a bio major).

[krads153]

Swarthmore is even less prestigious than Penn State, and there's nothing more pathetic than some Penn grad reminding you that it's an Ivy.

This is literally every Penn grad I've known IRL except one....they probably shouldn't have gone to Penn if they wanted lay prestige....

[fliptrip]

Swarthmore is even less prestigious than Penn State, and there's nothing more pathetic than some Penn grad reminding you that it's an Ivy.

This is literally every Penn grad I've known IRL except one....they probably shouldn't have gone to Penn if they wanted lay prestige....

Did Penn or a Philly person do something to you krads? You've been on these two like white on rice.

[fliptrip]

And let me plug my test one more time...it will free us from the horror of an actual discussion involved in comparing the prestige of Cornell to Carleton!!!!! Why? Because both are okay!!!!

And since I'm TLS-addicted and now I've got my dander up...I'll throw out the sacred few impressive schools:

Harvard
Princeton
Yale
Stanford
MIT, and lemme tell ya, MIT is barely hanging on here.

You forgot Caltech - hardest core curriculum out of any US school.....their remedial math is Dif Eq (or as some schools name it, calculus 3). Pretty much everyone who enters as a freshman has taken 2 years of calc, plus dif eq, plus linear algebra. And everyone has to take I believe two semesters of hard Physics (even if you're a bio major).

krads, dear sir, I did not forget Caltech. But, thanks for the details on their curriculum!

[krads153]

Swarthmore is even less prestigious than Penn State, and there's nothing more pathetic than some Penn grad reminding you that it's an Ivy.

This is literally every Penn grad I've known IRL except one....they probably shouldn't have gone to Penn if they wanted lay prestige....

Did Penn or a Philly person do something to you krads? You've been on these two like white on rice.

Not really, but that school seems to churn out a lot of d-bags IRL.....more so than other schools for some reason. Probably combination of the lack of lay prestige and also the "super rich kid, party school" rep that the undergrad has. If you're not like Ray Romano's daughter, you wouldn't like going there for undergrad....I don't know how many Penn grads you've known but that's pretty much the average Penn student - it's like an extended NYC social scene for rich, party NYC kids.

[fliptrip]

Not really, but that school seems to churn out a lot of d-bags IRL.....more so than other schools for some reason. Probably combination of the lack of lay prestige and also the "super rich kid, party school" rep that the undergrad has. If you're not like Ray Romano's daughter, you wouldn't like going there for undergrad....

You might be on to something...Trump's kid seemed pretty happy the whole time.

I don't even know what to say at this point. Looks like you've got those bastards pegged.