What are your T14 school tiers? Forum

[FredTheFish]

[img]http://i.imgur.com/HP0Xtue.jpg[/]

The employment score doesn't always tell the whole story, because of "unicorn" jobs, but the under-employment score is troubling. And if the goal is BigLaw, barring unusual circumstances, a scholarship at Penn is a solid option.

Isn't the point of going to HYS for the flexibility? You can get just about any job in just about any location you want. They are very good/near the top across the board in every type of job in every market, but they are not the best in EVERYTHING. If I solely wanted Biglaw, Columbia or Penn would be where I would go (depending on money of course).

[ticklemesilly]

Y>HS>CC>NP>DV>BCMN>G

[anyriotgirl]

Penn is the TTTT of Ivy League schools? Penn and Columbia are peer schools! LOL! Where are you from? Kentucky? Wachtell, by far the most elite and selective firm, hires Penn grads every single year. They don't even go to OCI at schools outside of HYSCCNPB. If you want to stay on the topic of prestige, how is NYU more prestigious? Its undergraduate institution is ranked #32, which disqualifies it from being considered an elite school. Same goes for Michigan and UVA, the latter of which is for frat boys. All of Penn's schools (law, undergrad, medical, dental, business, etc) are in the top 10. You can conceivably make the prestige argument about Cornell, but you can't make it about Penn. Sorry! I don't expect a response, as you more likely than not have realized by now that you just wrote the most inaccurate and laughable post on TLS.

While I do not doubt that Penn has a top-tier dental school, its law school is second-rate at best. You honestly believe that Penn and Columbia are peer schools? Just LOL. In your opinion, is the number four a peer of the number seven? I didn't think so. And even USNWR vastly overvalues Penn. It's telling that you cherry picked the example of Wachtell. First, Wachtell doesn't even attend Cornell's OCI, which proves my point about Cornell's bottom-of-the-barrel status. As for Wachtell and Penn, it's well known that Wachtell attends Penn OCI so that its few CLS grads can feel superior to other law students for a few hours each Fall. It's basically just a morale boosting thing for Wachtell's non-HYS grads.

And, yes, I am from Kentucky. Do you have a problem with that?

BigLaw/Fed Clerkship rate for both schools:

Penn: 78%
Columbia: 78.8%

If that doesn't say "peer schools, I don't know what does.

LOL at Penn's "Fed Clerkship" hiring rate. After the prestigious judges hire the students from the best Ivies (Harvard, Yale), and after the solid but unspectacular judges hire from the mid-tier Ivy (Columbia), the dregs of the federal judiciary—lower-tier district court judges, senile Third Circuit judges, and mid-Atlantic magistrates—pick up the scraps (i.e., Penn students). And don't even get me started on the types of law firms that most Penn students end up at.

If you were at an elite level, you would appreciate that it's quality—not just quantity—that matters. But since you're defending Penn for some reason, I wouldn't expect you to appreciate that.

um idk where you get your information, but Penn State is not an Ivy League school

[NoLieAbility]

um idk where you get your information, but Penn State is not an Ivy League school

Amazing.

[mathis1490]

um idk where you get your information, but Penn State is not an Ivy League school

Amazing.

The best

[twenty 8]

um idk where you get your information, but Penn State is not an Ivy League school

Amazing.

180.
6800 posts and still not a clue!

[Wild Card]

Y
H
SCCN
MBPV
GDCN

[Kosmopol]

Eh, I still get UPenn and Penn State confused. It might be because I'm from California, where 'UC' or 'Cal State' automatically = state school.

[mynameismyname]

.

[smaug]

um idk where you get your information, but Penn State is not an Ivy League school

Amazing.

180.
6800 posts and still not a clue!

I missed this post before.

This is amazingly funny, but not for the reason twenty 8 thinks it is.

[xael]

Y
H
SCCN
MBPV
GDCN

lol

[A. Nony Mouse]

Penn and Cornell are quasi Ivy's anyway... At least in terms of their law programs... Eff em...

That's not really how it works.

[seagan823]

What percentage of law school students are insecure, shallow, prestige-obsessed assholes?

[abl]

Because Georgetown has produced a significantly larger number of lawyers who are qualified and hired for these positions, meaning that you have a significantly higher number of potential connections in the legal industry. There are nearly 2 lawyers from Georgetown for every 1 lawyer from Yale in these positions. Percentage might be important for applicants or people concerned with finishing law school in the bottom 25% of the class, but once you're in the job market it's about who you know, and if you're a Georgetown alum you're nearly twice as likely to have a contact at any given firm as a Yale alum; why wouldn't Yale be significantly lower? Bottom line, Big Law + Fed Clerk selects more Georgetown grads than all but four of the rest of the T-14 schools.

Yes but this also means there's more competition for those positions.

With Stanford, 128/180 means you're very likely to get one of these positions if you attend Stanford (71% chance). With Georgetown, 222/576 means you have a much lower chance (39% chance).

If they're hiring 71% of Stanford grads and 39% of Georgetown grads, I'd much rather be at Stanford.

Okay, but what about ten years after law school if you're interested in changing your career path? What if you have to move somewhere where your firm doesn't have an office? Would you rather be part of a "select" group of lawyers, or would you rather have a significantly larger number of connections? The idea that percentage is a be-all, end-all is incredibly short sighted in an economy where even lawyers and doctors are not incredibly likely to work in the same place their whole life. Yes, it's a gamble since you're less likely to come out of those schools with such a position, but remember that a large number of Georgetown grads are not aiming to go Big Law or Fed Clerk, as evidenced by the fact that 151 GULC grads from last year went to work for the government or in PI.

To put it in terms where I'm from, Rice University is a phenomenal school and almost certainly puts a higher percentage of it's students into high-paying positions than the big state schools like Texas A&M. Texas A&M, however, has an incredibly loyal alumni base and the so-called "Aggie Network" is one of the school's greatest selling points. Discounting or discrediting the sheer number of alumni in these positions is not logical, because once you've established yourself as a competent lawyer those alumni will be significantly more helpful in a pinch than having a diploma from a higher ranked school.

That's not really how legal hiring or alumni connections work. I think there are very few scenarios ($ being equal) in which a student would actually be better served going to GULC rather than Yale (or, for that matter, Texas A&M over Rice for undergrad). The only scenario in which Yale's raw numbers disadvantage is going to matter compared with GULC is if there are no Yale alumns in the job that you want but there are GULC alums--and even then, it's not going to matter if either the GULC connection doesn't help GULC alums or Yale alums are preferred to GULC alums even after factoring in alumni nepotism. I think both are true--these things matter much less than you'd think ten years down the road (especially for the more elite-level jobs that realistically a GULC or Yale grad will be looking at).

[leslieknope]

"Ivy of the Delaware Valley" was an underappreciated contribution to this thread.

[AshburtonGrove]

"Ivy of the Delaware Valley" was an underappreciated contribution to this thread.

+1

[BirdLawExpert]

New tier list based on proximity to professional sports.

T1 (All professional leagues, some with multiple teams, located in city)
Columbia, NYU, Chicago, Northwestern

T2 (All professional leagues, located in city)
Harvard, Georgetown, Penn

T3 (All professional leagues, located near city)
Michigan, Berkeley, Stanford

T4 (Located far from any city with professional teams, but a day trip is possible)
Yale, UVA, Duke

TTT (Ithaca)
Cornell

[yenisey]

Sounds like Michigan is ranked at the bottom tier as a rule here. Does Michigan's rising back from #11 to #8 this year change someone's mind?

[Aeon]

Sounds like Michigan is ranked at the bottom tier as a rule here. Does Michigan's rising back from #11 to #8 this year change someone's mind?

The only valid rankings are the 1987 US News ones:

1. Yale & Harvard
3. Michigan
.....................
4-14. Everybody else

[hairbear7]

Sounds like Michigan is ranked at the bottom tier as a rule here. Does Michigan's rising back from #11 to #8 this year change someone's mind?

No. Things to look at:

1) Employment prospects
2) Cost of attendance
3) Geography (will this school get you a job in the market(s) you want?)
4) Student attractiveness
5) Weather
6) Library size

[Trippel]

New tier list based on proximity to professional sports.

T1 (All professional leagues, some with multiple teams, located in city)
Columbia, NYU, Chicago, Northwestern

T2 (All professional leagues, located in city)
Harvard, Georgetown, Penn

T3 (All professional leagues, located near city)
Michigan, Berkeley, Stanford

T4 (Located far from any city with professional teams, but a day trip is possible)
Yale, UVA, Duke

TTT (Ithaca)
Cornell

Hey, Ithaca should at least qualify for T4, don't forget Buffalo Bills, lol.

[tsujimoto74]

New tier list based on proximity to professional sports.

T1 (All professional leagues, some with multiple teams, located in city)
Columbia, NYU, Chicago, Northwestern

T2 (All professional leagues, located in city)
Harvard, Georgetown, Penn

T3 (All professional leagues, located near city)
Michigan, Berkeley, Stanford

T4 (Located far from any city with professional teams, but a day trip is possible)
Yale, UVA, Duke

TTT (Ithaca)
Cornell

Cornell isn't any farther away from Buffalo than UVA is from Washington. Buffalo's teams are mostly disappointing, but they're there!

[BirdLawExpert]

New tier list based on proximity to professional sports.

T1 (All professional leagues, some with multiple teams, located in city)
Columbia, NYU, Chicago, Northwestern

T2 (All professional leagues, located in city)
Harvard, Georgetown, Penn

T3 (All professional leagues, located near city)
Michigan, Berkeley, Stanford

T4 (Located far from any city with professional teams, but a day trip is possible)
Yale, UVA, Duke

TTT (Ithaca)
Cornell

Hey, Ithaca should at least qualify for T4, don't forget Buffalo Bills, lol.

I mean...there's a reason the Sabres and Bills both completely slipped my mind (but yeah, good catch).

[zozo1717]

New tier list based on proximity to professional sports.

T1 (All professional leagues, some with multiple teams, located in city)
Columbia, NYU, Chicago, Northwestern

T2 (All professional leagues, located in city)
Harvard, Georgetown, Penn

T3 (All professional leagues, located near city)
Michigan, Berkeley, Stanford

T4 (Located far from any city with professional teams, but a day trip is possible)
Yale, UVA, Duke

TTT (Ithaca)
Cornell

Hey, Ithaca should at least qualify for T4, don't forget Buffalo Bills, lol.

I mean...there's a reason the Sabres and Bills both completely slipped my mind (but yeah, good catch).

The Hurricanes play in Raleigh and that's only about 20 mins from Duke. Plus you can get student tickets for $10

[BirdLawExpert]

New tier list based on proximity to professional sports.

T1 (All professional leagues, some with multiple teams, located in city)
Columbia, NYU, Chicago, Northwestern

T2 (All professional leagues, located in city)
Harvard, Georgetown, Penn

T3 (All professional leagues, located near city)
Michigan, Berkeley, Stanford

T4 (Located far from any city with professional teams, but a day trip is possible)
Yale, UVA, Duke

TTT (Ithaca)
Cornell

Hey, Ithaca should at least qualify for T4, don't forget Buffalo Bills, lol.

I mean...there's a reason the Sabres and Bills both completely slipped my mind (but yeah, good catch).

The Hurricanes play in Raleigh and that's only about 20 mins from Duke. Plus you can get student tickets for $10

Totally forgot the Hurricanes were in Raleigh and not Charlotte, my bad. So Duke stays T4 but the definition changes to "At least one professional team, located near city". T4 becomes T5/TTT but includes Cornell alongside UVA and Yale.