A Message to Incoming T-14 Students Forum

[Danger Zone]

So my point is that people can and should be advised, but should not be deprived of the right to be congratulated after a decent achievement.

LOL

What a point

[fredfred]

The negativity in this thread towards op is everything wrong with this website in a nutshell.

[chuckbass]

The negativity in this thread towards op is everything wrong with this website in a nutshell.

Well, if that's so then I don't think you're going to enjoy the legal profession HTH.

[fredfred]

The negativity in this thread towards op is everything wrong with this website in a nutshell.

Well, if that's so then I don't think you're going to enjoy the legal profession HTH.

I appreciate your concern. People are just jumping on op for making a decent point- getting into a t14 is an honor. I'm the first person from my undergrad in 5 years to get into a t14 and I know it's not even close to being the end of the process towards getting a career but it takes a lot of hard work to get into a t14 from everyone that does. That is an accomplishment and everyone should just enjoy it for a moment. If you can't do that, then well you must suck at parties and interviews being a zombie.

[ihenry]

1. Every major event/decision requires some kinds of commitment and cost, be it money, time, or potential loss of opportunities.

No, the idea is that you don't insincerely tug someone who's on the cusp of making a really big decision. There are really only two reasons why you'd be showing off your stats/acceptances on TLS: you're looking for sincere and honest (possibly lolol depending on the person) advice about your law school prospects, or you're bragging. There's a massive difference between posting on Facebook "Hey, I got a new car everyone!" and getting 'likes' from grandma, and posting "Should I get a Lexus IS or BMW i3" on a car forum and expecting to be congratulated by strangers on having so much money.

Right, but if I read it correctly, OP is addressing to all incoming T14 students, posters and readers. It is not as an answer of whether to take money or prestige, where all your data and rationality can come into play, nor it is responding to a show-off. You have to be extremely light-hearted and offensive to say getting into T14 does not require talent and effort, and it is these things that can result in a congratulations.

2. There is indeed non-negligible possibility that people will pay debt back and make good living, especially given in a T14 school. The thing is you never know the end result and subjective happiness, etc.

I don't understand the relevance here, barring the strong possibility that this doesn't actually happen.

I'm not intending to discuss numerical possibility of a good job and fulfilling life (but I know it could only be worse if you keep your pessimism), but just to say entering a T14 school is not necessarily financially and personally doomed. True, this is not relevant to my main point, but I am addressing your attack which is based on the sole criterion of financing, arguing that even this metric does not disqualify someone to be congratulated.

but should not be deprived of the right to be congratulated

Actually, I don't see anything wrong here. Am I missing something? By keep making people feel sad and dismal aren't you saying they should not be congratulated (and hence, does not have such a right)? A little rhetoric but not sketchy.

[ihenry]

And I guess I'm paying this much attention to the OP because it felt like it was intended to make a point about TLS.

Like many posters have mentioned, I too have benefited greatly from TLS, both before and after registration. I come from China and am doing undergrad in another Asian country in a science/engineering discipline, and the information available to me regarding U.S. law school is ridiculously scarce. I also admire posters who, unlike rich and spoiled kids, earn their scores and take full financial and personal responsibility. The time I spent on TLS and posts I contributed greatly exceeded many Chinese online communities.

What I am arguing here is that letting fear, insecurity and inferiority pervade all aspiring students (even top-notch ones) from the very beginning is not a good thing to do. Attacking and poking fun of people who try to counterbalance this a bit by honestly saying nice words is worse.

[BigZuck]

Just lol@ treating the OP as anything but an attempt to take a PRINCIPLED stand against the Hive and/or be a flame.

Treating the first post in this thread as just a nice sentiment for T14 bound students doesn't give the OP the proper respect his post deserves and undermines everything he's try to accomplish with this alt.

[BigZuck]

Anyway, if someone is so fragile that the "Choosing a Law School" subforum on www.toplawschools.com is going to send them into a spiral of depression because it's the one place in their entire lives that they aren't congratulated for having the PRIVILEGE to pay sticker at Penn then they are beyond help. They were doomed before they ever even found this site.

[Kinky John]

I also admire posters who, unlike rich and spoiled kids, earn their scores and take full financial and personal responsibility.

lol

[shump92]

Just lol@ treating the OP as anything but an attempt to take a PRINCIPLED stand against the Hive and/or be a flame.

Treating the first post in this thread as just a nice sentiment for T14 bound students doesn't give the OP the proper respect his post deserves and undermines everything he's try to accomplish with this alt.

I quoted the only part of the first post that could possibly fit you reaction. OP refers to "demeaning" from TLS and acknowledged that those comments are often accurate. OP proceeded to say that despite that sentiment, OLs and readers should still be happy with their accomplishment.

At times TLS has a way of demeaning this accomplishment. Posters who have been accepted to some of these schools are often told to retake the LSAT and reapply for more scholarship money and acceptances. Others are told that they should not attend altogether. In many cases these are the right calls. But let that not demean you. /quote

I disagree that your reading is the only thing possible here. Like I just said, TLSers tend to assume that kind of mindset even when they don't have to. Multiple people had the reading I did which was more a "good job" to people starting law school this year. It's also really hard for me to not disagree with what you and some other posters said when you did not comment at all on how absurd it is that "any college graduate" would get into the T-14.

I remember when I started posting things for fun, multiple posters called me out for being a "lurker" as if I could not be a part of this forum. Then you read something that seems to just be a positive thought that gets brutalized my multiple posters. I'm not trying to be rude here, but the elitism and insularity here are definitely worthy of some pushback. I've seen a lot of your posts, and they are definitely fair and helpful but I don't think that is always true for the consistent posters.

[chuckbass]

Is some revolt by the lurkers about to happen?

[Tiago Splitter]

Ok first of all calling someone a lurker is not an insult.

OP was pretty clearly trying to get a rise out of the forum with his OP and he succeeded. But he wasn't done. Halfway down the first page he fired off a rambling diatribe about how TLS was misinformed because it was not negative enough and it killed the class of 2013 and now it's more informed and tries to warn against making those same mistakes but those warnings are fair but sometimes they come from 0L's who are just saying what they read from others so that's egregious and...

Seriously though it's that second post that got me and probably most others. If the old advice was misguided, and sticker is now 100k higher, why wouldn't the tone have changed?

[BigZuck]

Just lol@ treating the OP as anything but an attempt to take a PRINCIPLED stand against the Hive and/or be a flame.

Treating the first post in this thread as just a nice sentiment for T14 bound students doesn't give the OP the proper respect his post deserves and undermines everything he's try to accomplish with this alt.

I quoted the only part of the first post that could possibly fit you reaction. OP refers to "demeaning" from TLS and acknowledged that those comments are often accurate. OP proceeded to say that despite that sentiment, OLs and readers should still be happy with their accomplishment.

At times TLS has a way of demeaning this accomplishment. Posters who have been accepted to some of these schools are often told to retake the LSAT and reapply for more scholarship money and acceptances. Others are told that they should not attend altogether. In many cases these are the right calls. But let that not demean you. /quote

I disagree that your reading is the only thing possible here. Like I just said, TLSers tend to assume that kind of mindset even when they don't have to. Multiple people had the reading I did which was more a "good job" to people starting law school this year. It's also really hard for me to not disagree with what you and some other posters said when you did not comment at all on how absurd it is that "any college graduate" would get into the T-14.

I remember when I started posting things for fun, multiple posters called me out for being a "lurker" as if I could not be a part of this forum. Then you read something that seems to just be a positive thought that gets brutalized my multiple posters. I'm not trying to be rude here, but the elitism and insularity here are definitely worthy of some pushback. I've seen a lot of your posts, and they are definitely fair and helpful but I don't think that is always true for the consistent posters.

"The only part" you're referring to is actually the whole part. That's exactly what the OP is trying to get at, it's the only point being made.

I know Chimp gets a lot of crap on these fora for being a graduate of Pontifical Catholic but he was very perceptive this time. He recognized what the OP was trying to accomplish and got right to the heart of the matter so that this thread could develop the way the OP intended it to.

Look, I would think a little deeper about your position as opposed to mine but given that Nony and I are on the same wavelength here I'm sticking to my position. She's one of the smartest and most fair and balanced here, I've gotta go with her on this one.

[baal hadad]

The negativity in this thread towards op is everything wrong with this website in a nutshell.

Well, if that's so then I don't think you're going to enjoy the legal profession HTH.

I appreciate your concern. People are just jumping on op for making a decent point- getting into a t14 is an honor. I'm the first person from my undergrad in 5 years to get into a t14 and I know it's not even close to being the end of the process towards getting a career but it takes a lot of hard work to get into a t14 from everyone that does. That is an accomplishment and everyone should just enjoy it for a moment. If you can't do that, then well you must suck at parties and interviews being a zombie.

people at ur UG must have crap grades and must not want to study for the lsat then

[shump92]

Ok first of all calling someone a lurker is not an insult.

OP was pretty clearly trying to get a rise out of the forum with his OP and he succeeded. But he wasn't done. Halfway down the first page he fired off a rambling diatribe about how TLS was misinformed because it was not negative enough and it killed the class of 2013 and now it's more informed and tries to warn against making those same mistakes but those warnings are fair but sometimes they come from 0L's who are just saying what they read from others so that's egregious and...

Seriously though it's that second post that got me and probably most others. If the old advice was misguided, and sticker is now 100k higher, why wouldn't the tone have changed?

On the first point, I was trying to rehash that less. But some posters in the June waiters thread were maybe trying to be funny and were telling new people not to post. I agree the word itself is not an insult.

And with how you and Zuck responded, I can see where you are coming from. As soon as OP started to be more confrontational, the part that I thought was fine was definitely no longer important. I appreciate that you both were reasonable in responding to me.

[fredfred]

The negativity in this thread towards op is everything wrong with this website in a nutshell.

Well, if that's so then I don't think you're going to enjoy the legal profession HTH.

I appreciate your concern. People are just jumping on op for making a decent point- getting into a t14 is an honor. I'm the first person from my undergrad in 5 years to get into a t14 and I know it's not even close to being the end of the process towards getting a career but it takes a lot of hard work to get into a t14 from everyone that does. That is an accomplishment and everyone should just enjoy it for a moment. If you can't do that, then well you must suck at parties and interviews being a zombie.

people at ur UG must have crap grades and must not want to study for the lsat then

Not crap grades but our prelaw advisor is useless and tells kids a 160 is the top score you can realistically get and you should just go to a regional for close to free. The second half isn't awful advice but the first is. Plus I went to a tiny undergrad so maybe 4-5 students a year go to law school.

[ticklemesilly]

I for one appreciate the original post. I feel like I did accomplish something by getting into a T14 with a good scholarship because I worked hard on my applications and to get a good LSAT score, and these things helped me gain admission. It's the first step in my (hopefully) law career. I'll also feel accomplished if/when I graduate law school, if/when I get a job, if/when I pass the bar, if/when I enjoy my first successes at my job. Why are we putting these steps down? How are they not accomplishments (now if I had accepted admission to Thomas M Cooley at full tuition, you could argue that this is no accomplishment, but the poster addressed this post to incoming T14 students who no doubt worked hard to gain admittance to these schools).

[fredfred]

I for one appreciate the original post. I feel like I did accomplish something by getting into a T14 with a good scholarship because I worked hard on my applications and to get a good LSAT score, and these things helped me gain admission. It's the first step in my (hopefully) law career. I'll also feel accomplished if/when I graduate law school, if/when I get a job, if/when I pass the bar, if/when I enjoy my first successes at my job. Why are we putting these steps down? How are they not accomplishments (now if I had accepted admission to Thomas M Cooley at full tuition, you could argue that this is no accomplishment, but the poster addressed this post to incoming T14 students who no doubt worked hard to gain admittance to these schools).

+1

[A. Nony Mouse]

What on earth is the right to be congratulated? Why does anyone have a right to have others congratulate them on anything?

Maybe not a "right", but just the idea that if someone chooses to congratulate someone for a positive achievement, its sort of rude/demeaning (maybe not the right words, but I think they convey the feeling I intend) to push that aside and say there's nothing to congratulate.

I mean..If I'm in class, and a teacher tells another student he did a good job on something that I don't really think is all that impressive, I'm not going to say that aloud. I'm going to respect/recognize the good intentions of the person who gave the compliment, and if it didn't hurt anybody and may have lifted the spirits of the student who was complimented, I'm going to just let it go.

I feel like that's one way for a community to build it's strength, and I think the response to OP could have been more along those lines.

I really really really don't think the general gist of this thread (with a couple of exceptions) is that getting into a T14 isn't something that merits congratulation. I feel like that's a straw man distracting a lot of the pro-OP people. You all did great things by getting into a good school. Congratulations.

It's just that what is the point of that congratulation here? My feeling is that looking for congratulations in all contexts is self-absorbed and the point of TLS choosing threads is to offer advice. There are plenty of places on this site that are encouraging and congratulatory (why is no one else willing to acknowledge this?). And if TLS is elitist, limiting your congratulations to people going to the T14 - regardless of financial circumstances or goals - is also pretty elitist.

I think the reason the OP was bashed is that 1) he's setting himself up as a BRAVE CRUSADER against the hivemind, which is intended to (and does) annoy the regulars who don't see themselves as part of a hive mind, but as having information 0Ls don't (if this wasn't his purpose, why chastise TLS, why not just going to the class of whatever forum and congratulate everyone?), and 2) the emphasis on congratulations in the context of giving advice can undermine what people believe to be the message about what they should do. I don't see how it's a disservice to tell 0Ls who ask about law school and frequently don't know these things that the job market is extremely tough, that many students end up under- or unemployed, that debt is oppressive, and that a lot of lawyers don't really like their jobs. Saying "hey, you got into a T14, that's a great accomplishment, you should be proud" just isn't relevant or helpful for making the decision about where/whether you should go, and it would get pretty old to repeat that it every choosing thread.

I've already said that these messages can sometimes be presented more kindly (I also think Zuck's point that his posts are often getting meta about things newbies don't know about this place applies to lots of posters here). I am not, nor have ever been, T-14 or bust (it would be pretty hypocritcal), and I believe (and say) that if in the end, someone knows all the risks and wants to take them, that's absolutely their choice. I don't think all TTT grads are going to die alone in a gutter and I've never suggested that.

But the OP seems unhappy with the information that he himself agrees is often correct simply because users don't stop to kowtow to someone's accomplishment in giving it, and that really rubs me the wrong way.

[Ron Howard]

I want to clarify this for all readers: My original post was not intended to take a stab against the TLS community. It was not meant to insight any sort of change. And it certainly was not meant to arouse anger. Instead, the post was meant to offer 0L readers a one time vacation post from what they normally read on this site. The students to whom the post was addressed are set on attending some of the best law schools in the country. This is an accomplishment, and, even if just for one brief moment, I think it is acceptable to acknowledge that in this forum. But now I think some change may be in order.

I ceded in my original post, and several since then, that advising students not to attend certain law schools and to retake the LSAT is often the right call. I stand by that. TLS, including many of who posted in this thread, have done great things for the community. There are, indeed, many schools that should not be attended at or near sticker, and perhaps not even at all. There are GPAs that really ought to be paired with higher LSAT scores. And there are people who should just not attend law school at all. TLS offers a valuable service by spreading this reality to naive 0Ls. As one poster in this thread commented, this really is one of the few places where this take on law school can be offered. I congratulate the TLS community for that fact.

Yet the methods in which this advice giving occurs are often ill conceived. Sarcastic, demeaning, and fear-mongering posts, while in most cases on the right side of reality, are often damaging. In some few cases they disturb some select readers. In others they reduce the credibly of this site. They turn away some readers by being over the top. They confuse others who cannot discern whether or not the poster is trolling or being sarcastic. The phrasing of these posts, in short, can undermine what would would otherwise be the true value of these posts. That is shameful, because it would be better if more readers could benefit from the advice offered on TLS.

At this point, then, I offer one piece of advice to the TLS in order to improve the value of the site. The language of some posters needs to change. As I have said, at times it is difficult, if not impossible, for some readers to discern whether or not a particular poster is being sarcastic or if they are trolling. In other cases, posts are overly bleak, sometimes to the extent that they are even unrealistic in their take, which can diminishes credibility. This can be a huge turn off for some readers, and as a consequence it can diminish the number of people who can benefit for what would otherwise be perceived as sound advice. But, although the problem runs deep, the solution is easy. Posters just have to be clear--not sarcastic or trollish in tone--when they give advice on on-topics. Posters have to use reason to convince not only the individual to whom they are giving advice, but to the countless other lurkers and posters who will read the post that the advice they are giving is sound. If more TLS posters can do just that--some already do--I think the community would be much better for it, because there is some serious talent wasted on sarcastic posts.

(Edited for typo)

[Danger Zone]

Nerd

[BigZuck]

[youtube]MpraJYnbVtE[/youtube]

[A. Nony Mouse]

I said this before, but while you have a point about some of the language (particularly sarcasm/demeaning - I don't think fear-mongering is an issue, because there are way too many overly optimistic 0Ls, and "fear-mongering" is often code for "I don't want to think about these hard realities"), I also think newbies would also benefit from lurking here a little while to figure out the culture before asking questions, so they're in a better position to read the answers. (I think this about every internet forum, FWIW.)

But I would also rather have valuable information delivered in a sarcastic fashion, than have questions go unanswered.

[180kickflip]

I was going to post another response, but this says enough ^

[Ron Howard]

A. Nony Mouse: I am not sure why my posts have angered you so. It was not, as I have said, my original intent to criticize the community or enact any sort of change. I simply wanted to offer congratulations where I believed it was due. Nothing more. At this point, however, I do want to encourage change -- and you can thank the response I have received in this thread for that.

I am also not sure why you keep insinuating that it is my intent to congratulate law school hopefuls in all or even most cases. That is in no way what I intended. In certain cases congratulations are due. I believe my original post falls under that category. But I would not offer congratulations to a poster who was trying to go to Emory with no scholarship and hope of getting a big law job in Seattle on making the right decision. While I might offer them a positive comment on their Fulbright, I would then proceed to explain how their goal is unrealistic and their debt too high. I would, if applicable, encourage them to retake the LSAT and to take some time to get work experience. I would explain the risk, and I would tell them that they were making a poor decision. Not being sarcastic, but being clear and precise in my language is, in my option, the best way to give this sort of advice. It will be useful not only to them, but to future readers who might be turned off my anything less.