How far down the ladder does LS at sticker become an objectively bad decision? Forum

[jbagelboy]

Probably about 8-10 people per year, and those that do usually still borrow for COL. The people with zero debt are not those with full rides.

[star fox]

Is it actually possible to go to Columbia and only pay $1364/month on Rent/Utilities (looking at their Costs and Budgeting on their website)?

[jbagelboy]

yea - you can live in a three bedroom share for <$1000, two bedroom share for <$1300. housing is subsidized by the university. utilities are like $30-70/month depending on the month; summer will be more expensive due to running the AC, whereas winter is very cheap.

if you want your own place (studio or 1 bedroom), you'll pay minimum $1500 though.

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

Anywhere on the ladder. HYS at sticker is objectively a bad decision.

[LawsRUs]

it's a bad question to begin with
op is asking us to generalize, but choosing a ls (and anticipating ROI) is inherently situation specific

Fair. Let me rephrase. In your current situation, where is the lowest you'd pay sticker at.

Beside the point that it should be a subjective decision (which is why Choosing threads ask for specific questions), saying or implying that a law school is "lower" or "lowest" on a "ladder" just naturalizes USNWR's rankings by masking their arbitrariness and possibly reinforces the preftige. I don't think the question can be rephrased. It invited a good discussion though.

[Mack.Hambleton]

@Yale stuff.

64% of the class (2014 numbers) clerks or works at a firm straight out (28% and 36% respectively), and most of those clerking will probably be working biglaw afterwords. So probably at least 50% of Yale's class will be starting out in biglaw.

Or you could pay sticker and be in the 9% of the class in school funded jobs (inb4 p-p-prestigious fellowship).

[jetsfan1]

it's a bad question to begin with
op is asking us to generalize, but choosing a ls (and anticipating ROI) is inherently situation specific

Fair. Let me rephrase. In your current situation, where is the lowest you'd pay sticker at.

Beside the point that it should be a subjective decision (which is why Choosing threads ask for specific questions), saying or implying that a law school is "lower" or "lowest" on a "ladder" just naturalizes USNWR's rankings by masking their arbitrariness and possibly reinforces the preftige. I don't think the question can be rephrased. It invited a good discussion though.

That's what I'm saying, subjective to you, where's the lowest you would go. But eh, never said the ladder had to be USNWR's. I've developed my own so to speak, but its still grouped HYS then CCN with my strong east coast bias, and even without that I think it's a tough argument to make for it to be any different. Maybe Penn/Cornell you could make a weak case for.

[abl]

Assuming a pretty average prospective student (no real parental support to speak of, but also some parental safety net if things really go to hell (at least a basement to crash in); no pre-ls debt; no current financial dependents; no particular interest in med school or some other similar professional career; humanities major; interest in law), I don't think sticker LS becomes an objectively bad decision until you get out of the top 50 or so schools (e.g., strong regional schools). Folks here are being far too conservative and/or answering a slightly different question than that asked. Sure, law school might not be a particularly good pure financial investment outside of HYS, but that's not the question. For sticker at LS to be an objectively bad decision, it can't just be a bad financial decision--it has to be so significantly bad of a financial decision to outweigh the benefits that come from getting to have the career that you want, etc, that come from law school. Lots of people go to lots of graduate schools that are objectively bad financial decisions (e.g., basically all humanity PhDs) but that doesn't make attending those programs an "objectively bad decision" for those students. If you're passionate about classics, getting a classics PhD from Harvard may be a poor way to invest your money (in opportunity cost) and time from a purely financial standpoint, but it's probably a great decision nevertheless.

tl;dr: LS @ sticker becomes an objectively bad decision below the top regional schools (which I'd define as including most of the roughly top 50-75 schools).

[baal hadad]

No school is worth sticker. If you get into hys go somewhere else w scholarship

Probably not even your in-state flagship (which even at in state tuition will probably run you over $100k at 8%)

[abl]

No school is worth sticker. If you get into hys go somewhere else w scholarship

Probably not even your in-state flagship (which even at in state tuition will probably run you over $100k at 8%)

I completely disagree. In any event, that's not the question. The question is when LS at sticker becomes an objectively bad decision.

[baal hadad]

No school is worth sticker. If you get into hys go somewhere else w scholarship

Probably not even your in-state flagship (which even at in state tuition will probably run you over $100k at 8%)

I completely disagree. In any event, that's not the question. The question is when LS at sticker becomes an objectively bad decision.

Going to any law school at sticker is an objectively bad decision

How's that

[abl]

No school is worth sticker. If you get into hys go somewhere else w scholarship

Probably not even your in-state flagship (which even at in state tuition will probably run you over $100k at 8%)

I completely disagree. In any event, that's not the question. The question is when LS at sticker becomes an objectively bad decision.

Going to any law school at sticker is an objectively bad decision

How's that

You really think that it's an objectively bad decision for the average prospective law student to go to Yale at sticker? Why? That strikes me as being an obviously false statement.

[DportIA]

Any law school at sticker is a horrible choice. 0Ls don't buy into the prestige, your feelings about yourself won't be paying the debt, your ass in the chair at biglaw hours will.

[abl]

Any law school at sticker is a horrible choice. 0Ls don't buy into the prestige, your feelings about yourself won't be paying the debt, your ass in the chair at biglaw hours will.

This is an incredibly myopic view of law school hiring outcomes and of the value that generally is derived from a career.

[DportIA]

Any law school at sticker is a horrible choice. 0Ls don't buy into the prestige, your feelings about yourself won't be paying the debt, your ass in the chair at biglaw hours will.

This is an incredibly myopic view of law school hiring outcomes and of the value that generally is derived from a career.

$$$$$

[lavarman84]

No school is worth sticker. If you get into hys go somewhere else w scholarship

Probably not even your in-state flagship (which even at in state tuition will probably run you over $100k at 8%)

I completely disagree. In any event, that's not the question. The question is when LS at sticker becomes an objectively bad decision.

Going to any law school at sticker is an objectively bad decision

How's that

You really think that it's an objectively bad decision for the average prospective law student to go to Yale at sticker? Why? That strikes me as being an obviously false statement.

The average prospective law student isn't getting into Yale.

[abl]

No school is worth sticker. If you get into hys go somewhere else w scholarship

Probably not even your in-state flagship (which even at in state tuition will probably run you over $100k at 8%)

I completely disagree. In any event, that's not the question. The question is when LS at sticker becomes an objectively bad decision.

Going to any law school at sticker is an objectively bad decision

How's that

You really think that it's an objectively bad decision for the average prospective Yale law student to go to Yale at sticker? Why? That strikes me as being an obviously false statement.

The average prospective law student isn't getting into Yale.

Edited for clarity.

[lavarman84]

No school is worth sticker. If you get into hys go somewhere else w scholarship

Probably not even your in-state flagship (which even at in state tuition will probably run you over $100k at 8%)

I completely disagree. In any event, that's not the question. The question is when LS at sticker becomes an objectively bad decision.

Going to any law school at sticker is an objectively bad decision

How's that

You really think that it's an objectively bad decision for the average prospective Yale law student to go to Yale at sticker? Why? That strikes me as being an obviously false statement.

The average prospective law student isn't getting into Yale.

Edited for clarity.

Can certainly argue it is. Average prospective Yale law student probably has full scholarship offers to one or more of CCNPDCV.

Whether or not it's a bad decision depends on their goals and outcome.

[abl]

No school is worth sticker. If you get into hys go somewhere else w scholarship

Probably not even your in-state flagship (which even at in state tuition will probably run you over $100k at 8%)

I completely disagree. In any event, that's not the question. The question is when LS at sticker becomes an objectively bad decision.

Going to any law school at sticker is an objectively bad decision

How's that

You really think that it's an objectively bad decision for the average prospective Yale law student to go to Yale at sticker? Why? That strikes me as being an obviously false statement.

The average prospective law student isn't getting into Yale.

Edited for clarity.

Can certainly argue it is. Average prospective Yale law student probably has full scholarship offers to one or more of CCNPDCV.

Whether or not it's a bad decision depends on their goals and outcome.

First of all, the average prospective YLS student definitely does not have a full scholarship to one of those schools on your list. Many do, and I think the avg prospective YLS gets some money to multiple schools on that list, but I don't think most get full scholarships.

Second of all, the fact that you have to start looking into particular folk's goals and outcomes makes it not an objectively bad decision to go to YLS at sticker. It may be a subjectively bad decision for some to choose YLS over, say, Duke with a fully scholarship (although I suspect it isn't for most), but that's a different question.

[lavarman84]

Can certainly argue it is. Average prospective Yale law student probably has full scholarship offers to one or more of CCNPDCV.

Whether or not it's a bad decision depends on their goals and outcome.

First of all, the average prospective YLS student definitely does not have a full scholarship to one of those schools on your list. Many do, and I think the avg prospective YLS gets some money to multiple schools on that list, but I don't think most get full scholarships.

Second of all, the fact that you have to start looking into particular folk's goals and outcomes makes it not an objectively bad decision to go to YLS at sticker. It may be a subjectively bad decision for some to choose YLS over, say, Duke with a fully scholarship (although I suspect it isn't for most), but that's a different question.

Yale is the toughest law school to get into. I don't think I'm overstating things by saying the average Yale admit could have gotten a full scholarship to one of those 7 schools. Yale's medians are a 3.91 GPA and a 173 LSAT.

And I'm not going to waste time arguing semantics over objectively bad decision vs. subjectively bad decision. With the way you're defining it, I can claim most law schools aren't an "objectively" bad decision at sticker.

[Ohiobumpkin]

Columbia/University of Chicago. HYS is safe enough to take out a non-dischargeable mortgage sized debt.

[UnicornHunter]

Columbia/University of Chicago. HYS is safe enough to take out a non-dischargeable mortgage sized debt.

Again, this confuses me. The risk you assume basically doesn't change here, which is the relevant question.

[abl]

Can certainly argue it is. Average prospective Yale law student probably has full scholarship offers to one or more of CCNPDCV.

Whether or not it's a bad decision depends on their goals and outcome.

First of all, the average prospective YLS student definitely does not have a full scholarship to one of those schools on your list. Many do, and I think the avg prospective YLS gets some money to multiple schools on that list, but I don't think most get full scholarships.

Second of all, the fact that you have to start looking into particular folk's goals and outcomes makes it not an objectively bad decision to go to YLS at sticker. It may be a subjectively bad decision for some to choose YLS over, say, Duke with a fully scholarship (although I suspect it isn't for most), but that's a different question.

Yale is the toughest law school to get into. I don't think I'm overstating things by saying the average Yale admit could have gotten a full scholarship to one of those 7 schools. Yale's medians are a 3.91 GPA and a 173 LSAT.

And I'm not going to waste time arguing semantics over objectively bad decision vs. subjectively bad decision. With the way you're defining it, I can claim most law schools aren't an "objectively" bad decision at sticker.

I went to HYS. Admissions don't work nearly as mechanically as most on TLS seem to think, ESPECIALLY at YS. It may well be the case that the average Yale student could have gotten a full scholarship to one of those schools, e.g., that it would have surprised nobody, but that does not change the fact that many if not most Yale students aren't actually turning down full rides at those schools. In any event, even if it is an objectively better decision to attend Penn with a full ride over Yale at sticker (and I don't think it is for many, if not most, students), that doesn't make Yale at sticker an objectively or subjectively bad decision, even for those who have Penn at full ride as an option. That's probably the biggest fault in your logic.

The way I'm defining the question is the way that the question was phrased (or at least as close to the way the question was phrased as I could). And I'm not sure that the majority of law schools are an "objectively" bad decision at sticker. That doesn't mean that most law schools are the best possible decision for most of the students who go there (or even one of the better decisions available)--but that's a different question.

[Elston Gunn]

I paid essentially sticker at Y and I feel pretty good about it. I'm just basically never going to pay it back.

IMPORTANT CAVEATS:
just graduated
sticker was a lot less back then
I wouldn't advise many people to do the same thing

[abl]

I paid essentially sticker at Y and I feel pretty good about it. I'm just basically never going to pay it back.

IMPORTANT CAVEATS:
just graduated
sticker was a lot less back then
I wouldn't advise many people to do the same thing

How unusual would you say you are in this? (From my own experience, I'd say this is not at all unusual.)