Why Biglaw? Forum

[jbagelboy]

Assuming you've been paying for three to four years, your debt is certainly manageable by that point, even on a meager 100k salary.

Assuming your living expenses in NYC are 60k, you make the Cravath scale with bonus (108k, 118k, 130k after taxes for first 3 years), and you start with 280k debt, your debt will still be around 140k after 3 years of payments. You then move to a 100k salary which nets you 66k after taxes. At this point it seems unlikely that you're going to significantly alter your standard of living and your new job won't even allow you to cover your interest payments while maintaining your standard of living.

this would definitely be a shitty spot to be in. But realistically, how many people 1) took more than sticker loans at private/OOS tuition (if they got big law, then they got at least one SA), are 2) single (in that tax distribution with no second income), 3) only pay half of their savings on debt (assuming it costs $30K/year to live in New York, and I know you can do it on less than $20K so thats not even that stingy), and 4) have to leave in exactly 3 years?

If you are one of the few people who actually took out sticker price loans, you remained single until age 30, you lived WAY beyond your means - like, $40-50,000 beyond your means per year - AND you needed to leave after three years, well then yes, the pay cut would be a tough consideration.

[Danger Zone]

This is starting to sound like when people complain that $250k isn't rich because after they've spent it all, there isn't any left. You can either maintain your lifestyle or pay down your debt. Just be thankful to have the option.

[snagglepuss]

Why not alter your standard of living? With all the free time from the quality of life upgrade, you can move to Jersey, have time to commute, not be required to constantly buy take out. And from my understanding, 100k is on the very low end of the scale for someone with three years of biglaw experience.

Yeah. I've read/heard that in-house jobs often have somewhat comparable total compensation to junior associate pay despite base salaries that can appear much lower. I thought the main problems with in-house were that it's increasingly rare/difficult to make the jump, making the jump is often irreversible, and timing the jump is difficult because many either miss their window or make the transition too early so they struggle to advance?

[rad lulz]

lol at the people saying they want biglaw for reasons other than money/prestige/bragging rights.

I don't know why it would be so hard for you to believe that some people want to work and large law firms because they want to do certain big law exclusive practice areas or they want to do something like exit to a United States attorneys office, etc.

[bk1]

This is starting to sound like when people complain that $250k isn't rich because after they've spent it all, there isn't any left. You can either maintain your lifestyle or pay down your debt. Just be thankful to have the option.

I'm not saying that these people shouldn't be thankful for their options, more just pointing out that things aren't all sunshine and roses if you take out a lot of debt to get biglaw and get what you want.

I think that a lot of people underestimate how much they will pay for their living expenses and lifestyle (I cannot imagine that many biglaw associates have the discipline to live off of 20-30k/year as suggested above), fail to realize how much interest will cut into their repayment, and misunderstand much a paycut from exiting biglaw can prolong debt repayment. Even with several years of biglaw under their belt, the financial picture isn't necessarily as great as many think it will be.

[Danger Zone]

All fair points. It sucks that that's considered "winning" the law school game, but I just can't stand when people complain about that on TLS while others are in such a worse position.

[minnbills]

I don't know why it would be so hard for you to believe that some people want to work and large law firms because they want to do certain big law exclusive practice areas or they want to do something like exit to a United States attorneys office, etc.

I'm sure there are some, but I haven't met any, at least not at my school.

[bk1]

I don't know why it would be so hard for you to believe that some people want to work and large law firms because they want to do certain big law exclusive practice areas or they want to do something like exit to a United States attorneys office, etc.

I'm sure there are some, but I haven't met any, at least not at my school.

You haven't met anybody at your school that wants to go into biglaw to eventually end up as an AUSA or in-house counsel?

[Crowing]

I don't know why it would be so hard for you to believe that some people want to work and large law firms because they want to do certain big law exclusive practice areas or they want to do something like exit to a United States attorneys office, etc.

I'm sure there are some, but I haven't met any, at least not at my school.

Most people at my school aiming for biglaw aren't doing it because they want to make a career out of it. Many want the money for loans, but others like me are mainly looking for the exit options. I'm not sure why you're so dismissive of that perspective because it's genuine and not all that uncommon.

[minnbills]

You haven't met anybody at your school that wants to go into biglaw to eventually end up as an AUSA or in-house counsel?

Let me put it this way, there is this young woman in one of my classes who, every morning before class starts, brags out loud to her friend about how great it's going to be to "make lots of money and go to trial all the time" with her big firm.

My impression is that most people here don't look down the road more than a few paces. The assumption seems to be they will make partner.

I have heard one person who wants to move from biglaw to academia. I have never heard a UMN student mention biglaw and AUSA in the same sentence though.

[capt_slow]

Some people enjoy working 80+ hour weeks... Every heard of the military... Underway you work for months straight with breaks to eat and sleep and some random morale events, and people enjoy that work...

[IAFG]

Some people enjoy working 80+ hour weeks... Every heard of the military... Underway you work for months straight with breaks to eat and sleep and some random morale events, and people enjoy that work...

As I and others have said, my problem (to the extent I have one) isn't and never was hours. When I was a 0L I assumed that hours are what made people burn out. I honestly think that's a small factor, since from what I hear, people who leave my firm and are happier don't actually end up with lighter hours.

[kcdc1]

I'll also add that BigLaw is a much more obtainable goal than some other desirable options. Most of us would happily go straight to in-house or academia positions if we could, as these positions are seen to offer solid pay and prestige with better work-life balance. But those options tend to not be available at entry level. BigLaw, on the other hand, is available (although obviously competitive), and it does not shut any doors. For example, it's much easier to transition from BigLaw to smaller practices than vice-versa.

[dabigchina]

Dolla dolla bills y'all. But yeah if I had to take out 200k of debt to do it I probably wouldn't consider it for even a second.

[Dredd_2017]

I think the salient point in this discussion is that while many law students look at biglaw as a way to service debt / for solid exit options, the Dean is pointing out that if you take a drop in the rankings you can go to law school for far less / a full ride and not need to do biglaw at all. Furthermore the higher your stats are compared to the incoming class the better your chances of winding up at the head of the pack, which seems like a reasonable hypothesis.

As 1L's-3L's this seems unintuitive because you already made a choice and took the plunge, but as a OL choosing from a full ride at lower ranked schools to partials at T20's and nothing when it comes to T10, this is a valid point.

As an aside, even though I've lurked for several months it's still jarring that there's a Dean on here.

[TheSpanishMain]

I think the salient point in this discussion is that while many law students look at biglaw as a way to service debt / for solid exit options, the Dean is pointing out that if you take a drop in the rankings you can go to law school for far less / a full ride and not need to do biglaw at all.

It's a very solid point, and sometimes the whole rank -> Big Law argument seems circular. You need to take on debt to go to a school that gives you a good chance of getting Big Law, and you need Big Law to pay off the debt you assumed. The thing is, some goals seem to require a few years in Big Law. But yeah, if your goals are to work small law/state and local government, then it makes way more sense to go to the regional for free over the T14 with lots of debt.

[izha]

As an aside, even though I've lurked for several months it's still jarring that there's a Dean on here.

The Dean is recruiting obviously. That's his job.

[Saddle Up]

Anyone here from a top 20 LS with no tuition debt to speak of? If so, is there any attraction to BL? Granted, the $ is good and I suppose after 4-6 years you can find another firm easier than someone at a boutique. Is that it?

[NYSprague]

Anyone here from a top 20 LS with no tuition debt to speak of? If so, is there any attraction to BL? Granted, the $ is good and I suppose after 4-6 years you can find another firm easier than someone at a boutique. Is that it?

I wanted the best corporate work. I wanted a job near my apartment (so I could walk to work) I'm a workaholic so big law feeds my addiction. I was a prestige whore until I realized how pointless that becomes.

I would not have gone into 6 figures of debt for this career. My family would never have supported that move. They probably would have held an intervention for me if I planned to do so. I would have found something else. I am not obsessed with money and owning stuff. I was taught that excessive debt is a huge trap.

I know that there is PAYE now so you have options other than defaulting. I still wouldn't want to carry debt for 25 or 20 years, depending on the plan.

[hcrimson2014]

For people going to law school at sticker or even at half scholarship which still generates 100k+ loans, big law is the only attainable job for most that can actually pay down that debt. Moreover, inhouse gigs/business type jobs are often unattainable without biglaw connections. Finally, having a number of years worth of big law experience makes securing an academia position easier and while one can say the same for fed clerkship, most are not qualified yet biglaw is available to the majority in the T14s.

[AT9]

I think the salient point in this discussion is that while many law students look at biglaw as a way to service debt / for solid exit options, the Dean is pointing out that if you take a drop in the rankings you can go to law school for far less / a full ride and not need to do biglaw at all. Furthermore the higher your stats are compared to the incoming class the better your chances of winding up at the head of the pack, which seems like a reasonable hypothesis.

As 1L's-3L's this seems unintuitive because you already made a choice and took the plunge, but as a OL choosing from a full ride at lower ranked schools to partials at T20's and nothing when it comes to T10, this is a valid point.

As an aside, even though I've lurked for several months it's still jarring that there's a Dean on here.

There's more than 1 dean on here.

I think the "why biglaw" answer should be a highly personal answer. Have lots of debt? Want a high starting salary with good exit options? Don't mind (what seems to be) poor quality of life and horrible hours? Biglaw may be for you.

I had the option of a partial scholarship at Vandy and about a full scholarship at a T-50. Vandy would cost me about $100K+ and would offer superior employment opportunities. T50 would cost $10K and OK employment options. I knew I'd have a pretty decent shot at biglaw type gigs from Vandy, but I would almost be forced to shoot for that option to make ends meet. On the other hand, I could go to T50, risk crappier job prospects, but at least be able to try something else with my life if it didn't work out. I liked the freedom that offered far more than being a slave to a job I'd probably hate. If I end up working a job I hate out of T50, at least I can quit and jump tracks to something else before it's too late because I wouldn't be under crushing debt. I wouldn't have that option if I were relying on the biglaw debt-payoff plan.

[Mal Reynolds]

So where did you end up.

[AT9]

So where did you end up.

In retrospect, that post definitely made it seem like I've ended up somewhere, which I haven't. I'm still a lowly 0L. IF I do well enough to have biglaw as an option, perhaps the money/exit options will seem too good to pass up once I'm actually in that position. But from my perspective looking forward, I don't want to force myself into biglaw knowing that I will probably hate it.

[Mal Reynolds]

So where did you end up.

In retrospect, that post definitely made it seem like I've ended up somewhere, which I haven't. I'm still a lowly 0L. IF I do well enough to have biglaw as an option, perhaps the money/exit options will seem too good to pass up once I'm actually in that position. But from my perspective looking forward, I don't want to force myself into biglaw knowing that I will probably hate it.

Oh so you're a 0L. Thanks for your valuable contribution.

[AT9]

So where did you end up.

In retrospect, that post definitely made it seem like I've ended up somewhere, which I haven't. I'm still a lowly 0L. IF I do well enough to have biglaw as an option, perhaps the money/exit options will seem too good to pass up once I'm actually in that position. But from my perspective looking forward, I don't want to force myself into biglaw knowing that I will probably hate it.

Oh so you're a 0L. Thanks for your valuable contribution.

No problem. I'm here to offer more critical insight whenever you wish.