My observation about the people on this board Forum

[firemed]

You know what though? If someone hears all the nay sayers and decides that he or she wants to go to a school ranked 20-30 anyway then that is a good thing. As long as they know they won't likely be making big money right away. I think the over the top negativness only scares the people away that shouldn't be in law school.

+1

Seriously, if you can't handle a bunch of strangers telling you you are a moron... how are you ever going to run for office?

[aliarrow]

You know what though? If someone hears all the nay sayers and decides that he or she wants to go to a school ranked 20-30 anyway then that is a good thing. As long as they know they won't likely be making big money right away. I think the over the top negativness only scares the people away that shouldn't be in law school.

+1

Seriously, if you can't handle a bunch of strangers telling you you are a moron... how are you ever going to run for office?

+1

I wont comment on whether one should/shouldn't go to a T30 at sticker/close-to-sticker since I have a stake in this

[rose711]

Just to clear up some posts from earlier in the thread about the terminology of clerkships, because there may be confusion here.

FWIW: Professor Campos distinguishes state trial court, state appellate court and state supreme court clerkships - he doesn't use any terminology like "staff attorney."

He includes states trial court clerkships as temporary jobs.

He excludes the tiny percentage of state appellate court clerkships all together-neither as permanent or temporary- because the value of the job is ambiguous.

He includes state supreme court clerkships and federal clerkships as permanent jobs because they are competitive and are considered desirable credentials by employers.

[drummerboy]

T20 to T30 with a great scholly without stipulations is a great opportunity IMO. I think that reducing debt allows one to evolve into the legal work force without the undue stress of having to secure a biglaw job immediately upon graduating. It gives a little more breathing room and the ability to make choices without being immediately burdened with the fear of never getting out of debt. A recent conversation from a lawyer ( out 15 years or so) suggested that of all the graduates she knew, the happiest were the ones that werent immediately forced into the corporate legal world.

[aliarrow]

T20 to T30 with a great scholly without stipulations is a great opportunity IMO. I think that reducing debt allows one to evolve into the legal work force without the undue stress of having to secure a biglaw job immediately upon graduating. It gives a little more breathing room and the ability to make choices without being immediately burdened with the fear of never getting out of debt. A recent conversation from a lawyer ( out 15 years or so) suggested that of all the graduates she knew, the happiest were the ones that werent immediately forced into the corporate legal world.

Who ever said going to a T20 or T30 with a great scholly was a bad idea?
The amount of straw-manning ITT is ridiculous.

The only time it might be a bad idea is if you take the IUB 120k and are NY Biglaw or Bust

[DoubleChecks]

T20 to T30 with a great scholly without stipulations is a great opportunity IMO. I think that reducing debt allows one to evolve into the legal work force without the undue stress of having to secure a biglaw job immediately upon graduating. It gives a little more breathing room and the ability to make choices without being immediately burdened with the fear of never getting out of debt. A recent conversation from a lawyer ( out 15 years or so) suggested that of all the graduates she knew, the happiest were the ones that werent immediately forced into the corporate legal world.

Who ever said going to a T20 or T30 with a great scholly was a bad idea?
The amount of straw-manning ITT is ridiculous.

The only time it might be a bad idea is if you take the IUB 120k and are NY Biglaw or Bust

That was my point too. TLS really isnt as pessimistic as it is made out to be, esp. if you're able to ignore the joking RETAKE LULZ comments. A lot of people take into a number of considerations before giving advice -- it's not perfect, but once again, I think if OP posted today on TLS with his situation, half if not more would say he should go and do what he did.

[Tiger dad]

I know the last thing you want to read are posts from adults who read this forum because they have a son applying to law school. And I don't think I can possibly be as interesting as tax guy but after many months lurking and cheering silently for all of you, I felt a need to post on this thread.

Life, in my experience is random not linear. I grew up in a lower middle class family, attended a decent State University and a second tier Graduate School. I was unemployed/underemployed for periods during my 20s, changed jobs several times due to family issues and made some mistakes along the way including a failed first marriage. Noone on TLS would have approved of my choices and probably would have predicted that I was doomed to be mired in mediocrity.

I worked hard and had some luck but am never the smartest, best educated or best looking person in a room. Nontheless, I am an executive with a Fortune 200 company earning well over $1 million per year and have had a truly rewarding, fulfilling and enriching career. After 30 years I am still excited to go to work most days.

Even if you graduate from a 20-100 law school with some debt and don't get your dream big-law job right away, do what you love ( or at least like), be determined and resilient, try to find some balance and things will work out for you in the end.

[aliarrow]

I know the last thing you want to read are posts from adults who read this forum because they have a son applying to law school. And I don't think I can possibly be as interesting as tax guy but after many months lurking and cheering silently for all of you, I felt a need to post on this thread.

Life, in my experience is random not linear. I grew up in a lower middle class family, attended a decent State University and a second tier Graduate School. I was unemployed/underemployed for periods during my 20s, changed jobs several times due to family issues and made some mistakes along the way including a failed first marriage. Noone on TLS would have approved of my choices and probably would have predicted that I was doomed to be mired in mediocrity.

I worked hard and had some luck but am never the smartest, best educated or best looking person in a room. Nontheless, I am an executive with a Fortune 200 company earning well over $1 million per year and have had a truly rewarding, fulfilling and enriching career. After 30 years I am still excited to go to work most days.

Even if you graduate from a 20-100 law school with some debt and don't get your dream big-law job right away, do what you love ( or at least like), be determined and resilient, try to find some balance and things will work out for you in the end.

Are you serious?
If so, congratulations on your success.
And I do agree with your sentiment, it can just be a terrifying idea to go to a mediocre school with six-figure debt.

And thank you for not being like Tax Guy.

[AntipodeanPhil]

I know the last thing you want to read are posts from adults who read this forum because they have a son applying to law school.

Oh, happy day! Please tell us about his softs.

On a more serious note: congratulations on your success, and it is good to hear stories like yours. Is there any chance you could tell us how you got in to management with a JD? Did you start as in house counsel? Any tips? I'm very interested in that topic, and I imagine others are as well.

[Patriot1208]

I know the last thing you want to read are posts from adults who read this forum because they have a son applying to law school. And I don't think I can possibly be as interesting as tax guy but after many months lurking and cheering silently for all of you, I felt a need to post on this thread.

Life, in my experience is random not linear. I grew up in a lower middle class family, attended a decent State University and a second tier Graduate School. I was unemployed/underemployed for periods during my 20s, changed jobs several times due to family issues and made some mistakes along the way including a failed first marriage. Noone on TLS would have approved of my choices and probably would have predicted that I was doomed to be mired in mediocrity.

I worked hard and had some luck but am never the smartest, best educated or best looking person in a room. Nontheless, I am an executive with a Fortune 200 company earning well over $1 million per year and have had a truly rewarding, fulfilling and enriching career. After 30 years I am still excited to go to work most days.

Even if you graduate from a 20-100 law school with some debt and don't get your dream big-law job right away, do what you love ( or at least like), be determined and resilient, try to find some balance and things will work out for you in the end.

I always love when succesful people talk to others if it is just that easy to become succesful.

Kiddos, just be resilient and you can all make it into the top .5% of the income spectrum too.

[aliarrow]

I know the last thing you want to read are posts from adults who read this forum because they have a son applying to law school. And I don't think I can possibly be as interesting as tax guy but after many months lurking and cheering silently for all of you, I felt a need to post on this thread.

Life, in my experience is random not linear. I grew up in a lower middle class family, attended a decent State University and a second tier Graduate School. I was unemployed/underemployed for periods during my 20s, changed jobs several times due to family issues and made some mistakes along the way including a failed first marriage. Noone on TLS would have approved of my choices and probably would have predicted that I was doomed to be mired in mediocrity.

I worked hard and had some luck but am never the smartest, best educated or best looking person in a room. Nontheless, I am an executive with a Fortune 200 company earning well over $1 million per year and have had a truly rewarding, fulfilling and enriching career. After 30 years I am still excited to go to work most days.

Even if you graduate from a 20-100 law school with some debt and don't get your dream big-law job right away, do what you love ( or at least like), be determined and resilient, try to find some balance and things will work out for you in the end.

I always love when succesful people talk to others if it is just that easy to become succesful.

Kiddos, just be resilient and you can all make it into the top .5% of the income spectrum too.

I don't think he's saying everyone will be rich, just things won't always end in you being destitute for eternity. And I think this is true, if you truly want to be a lawyer then you'll probably be able to squeeze into a decent legal job eventually, even if its just by starting off with a crappy craigslist job.
If you don't truly want to be a lawyer you'll probably give up and do something else, but even that can work out. You'll just be swimming in debt for a while

[BackToTheOldHouse]

I know the last thing you want to read are posts from adults who read this forum because they have a son applying to law school. And I don't think I can possibly be as interesting as tax guy but after many months lurking and cheering silently for all of you, I felt a need to post on this thread.

Life, in my experience is random not linear. I grew up in a lower middle class family, attended a decent State University and a second tier Graduate School. I was unemployed/underemployed for periods during my 20s, changed jobs several times due to family issues and made some mistakes along the way including a failed first marriage. Noone on TLS would have approved of my choices and probably would have predicted that I was doomed to be mired in mediocrity.

I worked hard and had some luck but am never the smartest, best educated or best looking person in a room. Nontheless, I am an executive with a Fortune 200 company earning well over $1 million per year and have had a truly rewarding, fulfilling and enriching career. After 30 years I am still excited to go to work most days.

Even if you graduate from a 20-100 law school with some debt and don't get your dream big-law job right away, do what you love ( or at least like), be determined and resilient, try to find some balance and things will work out for you in the end.

I always love when succesful people talk to others if it is just that easy to become succesful.

Kiddos, just be resilient and you can all make it into the top .5% of the income spectrum too.

I don't think he's saying everyone will be rich, just things won't always end in you being destitute for eternity. And I think this is true, if you truly want to be a lawyer then you'll probably be able to squeeze into a decent legal job eventually, even if its just by starting off with a crappy craigslist job.
If you don't truly want to be a lawyer you'll probably give up and do something else, but even that can work out. You'll just be swimming in debt for a while

I agree and actually liked hearing from a mature poster. Thanks for contributing, Tiger dad.

[Patriot1208]

I know the last thing you want to read are posts from adults who read this forum because they have a son applying to law school. And I don't think I can possibly be as interesting as tax guy but after many months lurking and cheering silently for all of you, I felt a need to post on this thread.

Life, in my experience is random not linear. I grew up in a lower middle class family, attended a decent State University and a second tier Graduate School. I was unemployed/underemployed for periods during my 20s, changed jobs several times due to family issues and made some mistakes along the way including a failed first marriage. Noone on TLS would have approved of my choices and probably would have predicted that I was doomed to be mired in mediocrity.

I worked hard and had some luck but am never the smartest, best educated or best looking person in a room. Nontheless, I am an executive with a Fortune 200 company earning well over $1 million per year and have had a truly rewarding, fulfilling and enriching career. After 30 years I am still excited to go to work most days.

Even if you graduate from a 20-100 law school with some debt and don't get your dream big-law job right away, do what you love ( or at least like), be determined and resilient, try to find some balance and things will work out for you in the end.

I always love when succesful people talk to others if it is just that easy to become succesful.

Kiddos, just be resilient and you can all make it into the top .5% of the income spectrum too.

I don't think he's saying everyone will be rich, just things won't always end in you being destitute for eternity. And I think this is true, if you truly want to be a lawyer then you'll probably be able to squeeze into a decent legal job eventually, even if its just by starting off with a crappy craigslist job.
If you don't truly want to be a lawyer you'll probably give up and do something else, but even that can work out. You'll just be swimming in debt for a while

Except, we know this isn't true. Not everyone will find a legal job, there just aren't enough of them. Things won't work out for everyone. It's statistically impossible. Sure, I could be like Tiger Dad, but I could also work my ass off and end up unemployed or working at 30k a year doc review job for most of my career. This happens to people and sentiments like "it will all work out in the end" are just optimistic bullshit that parents tell their kids. It won't all work out for everyone, it is impossible for that to happen.


ETA I don't have a problem with what Tiger Dad said and it is inspirational. But the point was it sounded like my dad talking to me and telling me everything will work out. While that is nice to hear from your parents you still know that your dad has no way of knowing that, that it is very possible it won't work out, and that he is just trying to cheer you up.

[BackToTheOldHouse]

You're right, Patriot1208. I don't know why anyone would even consider going to law school. The deck's stacked against us.

[Patriot1208]

You're right, Patriot1208. I don't know why anyone would even consider going to law school. The deck's stacked against us.

If that is what you got out of my post, then maybe you shouldn't go.

[aliarrow]

Except, we know this isn't true. Not everyone will find a legal job, there just aren't enough of them. Things won't work out for everyone. It's statistically impossible. Sure, I could be like Tiger Dad, but I could also work my ass off and end up unemployed or working at 30k a year doc review job for most of my career. This happens to people and sentiments like "it will all work out in the end" are just optimistic bullshit that parents tell their kids. It won't all work out for everyone, it is impossible for that to happen.


ETA I don't have a problem with what Tiger Dad said and it is inspirational. But the point was it sounded like my dad talking to me and telling me everything will work out. While that is nice to hear from your parents you still know that your dad has no way of knowing that, that it is very possible it won't work out, and that he is just trying to cheer you up.

Yeah I agree that parents can be overly optimistic. However I think that if you truly want to be a lawyer it has a decent chance of eventually working out. The ones who go into it for the money or other wrong reasons are very easily filtered out, whereas the ones who are deadset on it will likely get their foot in the door eventually. It'd take a ton of work, patience, and persistence (which is why I think the ones who aren't dead set on being a lawyer will be the first to be filtered), but it can happen.

[bk1]

Tiger Dad: Life is random, things can work out even if you make bad choices.

Me: Why make bad choices in the first place?

[kwais]

Tiger Dad: Life is random, things can work out even if you make bad choices.

Me: Why make bad choices in the first place?

oh sweet! problem solved, don't make bad choices! amazing

[beachbum]

You're right, Patriot1208. I don't know why anyone would even consider going to law school. The deck's stacked against us.

If that is what you got out of my post, then maybe you shouldn't go.

Ha, yeah. This is why TLS is so adamant about the T14 and strong regional schools with scholarships. Because while things might work out if you head to a lower-ranked school with significant debt, the odds are definitely not in your favor. And while you very well could love working as a lawyer, I imagine it's pretty difficult to maintain a happy and fulfilling life with $150k+ in loans that can't be paid off. Also, depending on the strength (or lack thereof) of your school, your decision to attend may actually exclude you from the legal field (at least, in any significant capacity).

[BackToTheOldHouse]

You're right, Patriot1208. I don't know why anyone would even consider going to law school. The deck's stacked against us.

If that is what you got out of my post, then maybe you shouldn't go.

Ha, yeah. This is why TLS is so adamant about the T14 and strong regional schools with scholarships. Because while things might work out if you head to a lower-ranked school with significant debt, the odds are definitely not in your favor. And while you very well could love working as a lawyer, I imagine it's pretty difficult to maintain a happy and fulfilling life with $150k+ in loans that can't be paid off. Also, depending on the strength (or lack thereof) of your school, your decision to attend may actually exclude you from the legal field (at least, in any significant capacity).

Oh, T14s are still safe. Phew, I guess I don't need to withdraw my applications.

All kidding aside, this conversation can basically be summarized thusly: law school may or may not work out for everyone. If it doesn't work out, you will either be happy with your life or you will not. You may end of up with debt that you can or cannot pay off.

Oh, yeah, and the teenage-ish angst prevalent on this site does not like being told that everything will be okay.

[aliarrow]

I'm just trying to play devil's advocate here, because I do consider myself well acquainted with the standard position of TLS.

But the point is, 0Ls and 1Ls aren't in a great position to speculate on career trajectories. You simply don't know what typically happens to these grads 5-20 years out and what kinds of positions they find themselves in. There are too many external variables to make any sort of blanket statement concerning the trajectories of law school grads.

Of course one should conduct due diligence and make an informed, rational decision when deciding to attend law school. However, if one does happen to end up at a less-than-stellar school, they aren't necessary doomed for bitter pessimism throughout their life.

[BackToTheOldHouse]

I'm just trying to play devil's advocate here, because I do consider myself well acquainted with the standard position of TLS.

But the point is, 0Ls and 1Ls aren't in a great position to speculate on career trajectories. You simply don't know what typically happens to these grads 5-20 years out and what kinds of positions they find themselves in. There are too many external variables to make any sort of blanket statement concerning the trajectories of law school grads.

Of course one should conduct due diligence and make an informed, rational decision when deciding to attend law school. However, if one does happen to end up at a less-than-stellar school, they aren't necessary doomed for bitter pessimism throughout their life.

True dat.

[Mickey Quicknumbers]

I know the last thing you want to read are posts from adults who read this forum because they have a son applying to law school. And I don't think I can possibly be as interesting as tax guy but after many months lurking and cheering silently for all of you, I felt a need to post on this thread.

Life, in my experience is random not linear. I grew up in a lower middle class family, attended a decent State University and a second tier Graduate School. I was unemployed/underemployed for periods during my 20s, changed jobs several times due to family issues and made some mistakes along the way including a failed first marriage. Noone on TLS would have approved of my choices and probably would have predicted that I was doomed to be mired in mediocrity.

I worked hard and had some luck but am never the smartest, best educated or best looking person in a room. Nontheless, I am an executive with a Fortune 200 company earning well over $1 million per year and have had a truly rewarding, fulfilling and enriching career. After 30 years I am still excited to go to work most days.

Even if you graduate from a 20-100 law school with some debt and don't get your dream big-law job right away, do what you love ( or at least like), be determined and resilient, try to find some balance and things will work out for you in the end.

I think this is an excellent piece of inspiration, and i'm glad you came out of the shadows to post . But you have to give Patriot's argument some credit. When, in a year there are twice as many kids pursuing legal jobs as there are legal jobs, kids are going to be employed. When that happens 3-4 years in a row, you have kids who will simply never find legal jobs, somebody has to lose out. Graduates can't afford to go 3-4 years without pay, they're going to have to find a job in some other field, be it busting tables or selling insurance or whatever career they had before they went to law school.

Understand that once you've started working outside of the legal profession, it's very difficult to get back in unless you're gaining some skills highly pertinent to the area to reenter to. It's a painful truth, but it is the truth that many many kids will be significantly worse off by attending law school no matter how hard they pursue their dreams. Again, I appreciate your anecdote, but you must surely realize that you're in such a vast minority, moving from underemployed/unemployed in your 20's to executive at a fortune company. I know men right now in their mid-40's who are about to lose their home, they've been unemployed for years now, desperately seeking anything they can do to work in a profession and have faced rejection after rejection. They probably heard the "things will work out" bit of advice when they were young, and are still grasping onto that as they move from their home of 10+ years to a motel.

Maybe things will work out for everyone on these forums, I certainly can't say they won't, but neither you nor me know. So removing any future guarantees from the picture, they have to look at the numbers and think "is it likely" or "is it unlikely", because that's all they have, and a lot of these kids fall in the "unlikely" category. That's where our advice comes from.

[beachbum]

You're right, Patriot1208. I don't know why anyone would even consider going to law school. The deck's stacked against us.

If that is what you got out of my post, then maybe you shouldn't go.

Ha, yeah. This is why TLS is so adamant about the T14 and strong regional schools with scholarships. Because while things might work out if you head to a lower-ranked school with significant debt, the odds are definitely not in your favor. And while you very well could love working as a lawyer, I imagine it's pretty difficult to maintain a happy and fulfilling life with $150k+ in loans that can't be paid off. Also, depending on the strength (or lack thereof) of your school, your decision to attend may actually exclude you from the legal field (at least, in any significant capacity).

Oh, T14s are still safe. Phew, I guess I don't need to withdraw my applications.

All kidding aside, this conversation can basically be summarized thusly: law school may or may not work out for everyone. If it doesn't work out, you will either be happy with your life or you will not. You may end of up with debt that you can or cannot pay off.

Oh, yeah, and the teenage-ish angst prevalent on this site does not like being told that everything will be okay.

Sure, and many (most?) schools with significant debt carry such a poor expected value that choosing to attend (with all else equal) is a bad call. Which is why, as a general rule, TLS pushes top schools and strong regional schools with scholarships. I'm not sure what else to say, or what you're trying to argue. But some students will achieve career success/fulfillment from lower-ranked schools. Most will not. So without being able to predict the future, it's probably best to avoid taking the gamble in the first place.

[Patriot1208]

You're right, Patriot1208. I don't know why anyone would even consider going to law school. The deck's stacked against us.

If that is what you got out of my post, then maybe you shouldn't go.

Ha, yeah. This is why TLS is so adamant about the T14 and strong regional schools with scholarships. Because while things might work out if you head to a lower-ranked school with significant debt, the odds are definitely not in your favor. And while you very well could love working as a lawyer, I imagine it's pretty difficult to maintain a happy and fulfilling life with $150k+ in loans that can't be paid off. Also, depending on the strength (or lack thereof) of your school, your decision to attend may actually exclude you from the legal field (at least, in any significant capacity).

Oh, T14s are still safe. Phew, I guess I don't need to withdraw my applications.

All kidding aside, this conversation can basically be summarized thusly: law school may or may not work out for everyone. If it doesn't work out, you will either be happy with your life or you will not. You may end of up with debt that you can or cannot pay off.

Oh, yeah, and the teenage-ish angst prevalent on this site does not like being told that everything will be okay.

Teenage-ish angst?

Bro, maybe you are just way more laid back than most. But a lot of us see serious choices as, just that, serious. Law school will be life altering and looking at it from all angles is the right thing to do. Having someone blindly tell me everything will be ok doesn't make that choice any different.

In reality it's far more immature to say "everything will be ok because I want it to be" than it is to say "Ya, people ARE getting fucked and I could be one of them".