Law School Is a DISASTROUS Decision Even for Many at T14 Forum

[hijodehombre]

What's more depressing?

This thread? Or the fact that getting into t14 is hard enough to begin with?

this thread, but only by a little

[whymeohgodno]

I think that the OPs school is really pretty obvious. There are two schools in the T14 that have really struggled to place in recent years. I think that the thread still has merit. With that said, I think that the OP would gain a great deal of credibility by simpling disclosing her situation.

Can you name said two schools, I am actually curious. To the rest, I think it is pretty obvious these days that even for highly ranked schools, LS is merely a shot at a decent job. The only assured good income grad school is med school. Start cracking open those Bio books folks.

I'm guessing Cornell+Gtown just because they are the two lowest ranked?

[digitalcntrl]

To be fair, you don't have to have awful grades to not find a job. I'm a t-14 3L who struck out at both last year's and this year's OCI despite grades that place me somewhere between median and top third. OP's unwillingness to disclose does seem to indicate that OP has done bad, but that doesn't necessarily mean that OP's views on job prospects are totally unfounded.

Note: I'm still happy I went to law school.

Did'nt try mass mailing, networking, etc.? Lots of peeps with good grades/schools don't seem to get jobs because of a lack of thorough job search (not saying this is you).

[digitalcntrl]

I think that the OPs school is really pretty obvious. There are two schools in the T14 that have really struggled to place in recent years. I think that the thread still has merit. With that said, I think that the OP would gain a great deal of credibility by simpling disclosing her situation.

Can you name said two schools, I am actually curious. To the rest, I think it is pretty obvious these days that even for highly ranked schools, LS is merely a shot at a decent job. The only assured good income grad school is med school. Start cracking open those Bio books folks.

I'm guessing Cornell+Gtown just because they are the two lowest ranked?

I heard from the grapevine last June, that only 50% of 2010 grads have secured employment at Gtown, am I way off?

[Doritos]

Worst comes to worst, you can always do Border Patrol or military. Who doesn't wanna go running around the border chasing illegals?

Or you could live off the grid in the mountains somewhere so you don't have to pay back your loans.

People kid around about that stuff - but I've sat around and debated about going into the wilderness for a year and see what I come back with... if I come back.

Not gonna lie, it crossed my mind once before. I don't think I'm outdoorsy enough to live outdoors though.

[im_blue]

I think that the OPs school is really pretty obvious. There are two schools in the T14 that have really struggled to place in recent years. I think that the thread still has merit. With that said, I think that the OP would gain a great deal of credibility by simpling disclosing her situation.

Can you name said two schools, I am actually curious. To the rest, I think it is pretty obvious these days that even for highly ranked schools, LS is merely a shot at a decent job. The only assured good income grad school is med school. Start cracking open those Bio books folks.

I'm guessing Cornell+Gtown just because they are the two lowest ranked?

Yeah, GULC has a huge class size and Cornell has weak placement outside NYC.

[TheTopBloke]

This whole thread is a prime example of what is wrong with law school. Not that there are too many lawyers, or that prospects are non existant, or the cost is too, high or any of that. The real problem is that these people can't think for themselves, and yet they are expected to represent me in a court of law. These people graduate with JD's, doctors of law, and can't take care of themselves, or be creative enough to handle their own lives and manage themselves out of troubled times. It's fucking ridiculous!

[ResolutePear]

This whole thread is a prime example of what is wrong with law school. Not that there are too many lawyers, or that prospects are non existant, or the cost is too, high or any of that. The real problem is that these people can't think for themselves, and yet they are expected to represent me in a court of law. These people graduate with JD's, doctors of law, and can't take care of themselves, or be creative enough to handle their own lives and manage themselves out of troubled times. It's fucking ridiculous!

I know who I'm calling next time I need... whatever lawyer you're going to be.

[ResolutePear]

Worst comes to worst, you can always do Border Patrol or military. Who doesn't wanna go running around the border chasing illegals?

Or you could live off the grid in the mountains somewhere so you don't have to pay back your loans.

People kid around about that stuff - but I've sat around and debated about going into the wilderness for a year and see what I come back with... if I come back.

Not gonna lie, it crossed my mind once before. I don't think I'm outdoorsy enough to live outdoors though.

Just watch the first couple seasons of Survivorman and Man vs. Wild. You'll be better than good - ignore the fact that Survivorman is more manly than the collective might of Gold's Gym or Bear Grylls is a UK special forces or w/e with a 800 dollar pocket knife that's probably a lightsaber.

[Hannibal]

This whole thread is a prime example of what is wrong with law school. Not that there are too many lawyers, or that prospects are non existant, or the cost is too, high or any of that. The real problem is that these people can't think for themselves, and yet they are expected to represent me in a court of law. These people graduate with JD's, doctors of law, and can't take care of themselves, or be creative enough to handle their own lives and manage themselves out of troubled times. It's fucking ridiculous!

You sound like the kind of person who takes a single thread on an internet message board and applies the lesson you took from it across an entire system of education, and all the individuals in that system.

Are you for hire?

[whymeohgodno]

Out of curiosity: how many people made it through the first post before deciding that they didn't believe it?

I'm curious because I think that TLS is often accused of being too optimistic, and I think there is something to that. People throw around 2009 NLJ hiring as if that is in any way indicative of what 0L/1Ls will be facing -- THOSE PEOPLE DID OCI IN 2007.

Anyway, I'm only asking you all - especially 0Ls - to take these thoughts into serious consideration. You might conclude that this is still what you want, and if so, good on you. Just don't disregard this as "just another troll," because there is a lot of truth in that post.

Really? All those TTT threads and t14 or bust elitism makes me think otherwise....

[ResolutePear]

Out of curiosity: how many people made it through the first post before deciding that they didn't believe it?

I'm curious because I think that TLS is often accused of being too optimistic, and I think there is something to that. People throw around 2009 NLJ hiring as if that is in any way indicative of what 0L/1Ls will be facing -- THOSE PEOPLE DID OCI IN 2007.

Anyway, I'm only asking you all - especially 0Ls - to take these thoughts into serious consideration. You might conclude that this is still what you want, and if so, good on you. Just don't disregard this as "just another troll," because there is a lot of truth in that post.

I believe it - I'm just delusional and think I'm a special snowflake that's going to go off and change US law for life.

In all seriousness, I do believe it and it's always a possibility, but without risk there is no reward... is it a stupid risk? Yeah, probably. Would I put my house down on a poker game? Yeah, probably. So, what's the difference?

[rayiner]

The OP's estimates aren't really that far off, it's just that his statement about not knowing anyone who got biglaw is kind of unbelievable unless he just hangs out with a very specific group of people.

The thing about the 2009 NLJ250 numbers that people seem to miss is that these numbers are *after* rescinded offers, clerkships, etc. If UVA is placing 50% at graduation, that means the OCI figure is more like 80%+. There were a ton of rescinded/no offers for C/O 2009, then you have 15% of the class who do clerkships who likely had 2L SAs, etc. This year, the optimistic OCI figures are 40-50%, which means even with good offer rates the at-graduation NLJ250 figures will be 25-35%.

As for those 40% figures out of Duke/Cornell, I do believe them. Most of the people I know in the top 1/3 of the class have multiple CBs, and the next 1/3 seems to have 1-3. Now at NU there are a lot of people with good grades getting shut-out because they bid on Chicago, so at an NYC-focused school like Duke or Cornell, an aggregate 40% figure is totally believable.

Yes, it's pretty disastrous. We're talking about literally a halving in biglaw placement at the core recruiting schools of most big firms. It's very scary when you realize that half of your classmates will be going into OCI with below-median grades. That said, we're not quite at the point where a statement like: "I don't know anyone going into biglaw" would be believable at a T14.

[blackwater88]

Out of curiosity: how many people made it through the first post before deciding that they didn't believe it?

I'm curious because I think that TLS is often accused of being too optimistic, and I think there is something to that. People throw around 2009 NLJ hiring as if that is in any way indicative of what 0L/1Ls will be facing -- THOSE PEOPLE DID OCI IN 2007.

Anyway, I'm only asking you all - especially 0Ls - to take these thoughts into serious consideration. You might conclude that this is still what you want, and if so, good on you. Just don't disregard this as "just another troll," because there is a lot of truth in that post.

That's why I was serious when I said "there's always the BP and military". Seriously, not landing CBs and striking out at OCI is not the end of the world. I have a cousin working in the BP and makes about $60,000/yr. in a city where the COL is not that high.

[whymeohgodno]

The OP's estimates aren't really that far off, it's just that his statement about not knowing anyone who got biglaw is kind of unbelievable unless he just hangs out with a very specific group of people.

The thing about the 2009 NLJ250 numbers that people seem to miss is that these numbers are *after* rescinded offers, clerkships, etc. If UVA is placing 50% at graduation, that means the OCI figure is more like 80%+. There were a ton of rescinded/no offers for C/O 2009, then you have 15% of the class who do clerkships who likely had 2L SAs, etc. This year, the optimistic OCI figures are 40-50%, which means even with good offer rates the at-graduation NLJ250 figures will be 25-35%.

Yes, it's pretty disastrous. We're talking about literally a halving in biglaw placement at the core recruiting schools of most big firms. It's very scary when you realize that half of your classmates will be going into OCI with below-median grades. That said, we're not quite at the point where a statement like: "I don't know anyone going into biglaw" would be believable at a T14.

I wonder when job prospects will improve...

[blackwater88]

Out of curiosity: how many people made it through the first post before deciding that they didn't believe it?

I'm curious because I think that TLS is often accused of being too optimistic, and I think there is something to that. People throw around 2009 NLJ hiring as if that is in any way indicative of what 0L/1Ls will be facing -- THOSE PEOPLE DID OCI IN 2007.

Anyway, I'm only asking you all - especially 0Ls - to take these thoughts into serious consideration. You might conclude that this is still what you want, and if so, good on you. Just don't disregard this as "just another troll," because there is a lot of truth in that post.

Really? All those TTT threads and t14 or bust elitism makes me think otherwise....

You're in for a big surprise if you plan to graduate from Cooley then, and what NR said.

[12262010]

The OP's estimates aren't really that far off, it's just that his statement about not knowing anyone who got biglaw is kind of unbelievable unless he just hangs out with a very specific group of people.

The thing about the 2009 NLJ250 numbers that people seem to miss is that these numbers are *after* rescinded offers, clerkships, etc. If UVA is placing 50% at graduation, that means the OCI figure is more like 80%+. There were a ton of rescinded/no offers for C/O 2009, then you have 15% of the class who do clerkships who likely had 2L SAs, etc. This year, the optimistic OCI figures are 40-50%, which means even with good offer rates the at-graduation NLJ250 figures will be 25-35%.

Yes, it's pretty disastrous. We're talking about literally a halving in biglaw placement at the core recruiting schools of most big firms. It's very scary when you realize that half of your classmates will be going into OCI with below-median grades. That said, we're not quite at the point where a statement like: "I don't know anyone going into biglaw" would be believable at a T14.

didn't know this

[ResolutePear]

Out of curiosity: how many people made it through the first post before deciding that they didn't believe it?

I'm curious because I think that TLS is often accused of being too optimistic, and I think there is something to that. People throw around 2009 NLJ hiring as if that is in any way indicative of what 0L/1Ls will be facing -- THOSE PEOPLE DID OCI IN 2007.

Anyway, I'm only asking you all - especially 0Ls - to take these thoughts into serious consideration. You might conclude that this is still what you want, and if so, good on you. Just don't disregard this as "just another troll," because there is a lot of truth in that post.

Really? All those TTT threads and t14 or bust elitism makes me think otherwise....

It's not elitism in my book - it's the industry. The same law students on this forum will go and potentially start hiring in the relatively short future; chances are that this "elitism" is for the better and if anything, should be YHSC or bust.

[Hannibal]

Out of curiosity: how many people made it through the first post before deciding that they didn't believe it?

I'm curious because I think that TLS is often accused of being too optimistic, and I think there is something to that. People throw around 2009 NLJ hiring as if that is in any way indicative of what 0L/1Ls will be facing -- THOSE PEOPLE DID OCI IN 2007.

Anyway, I'm only asking you all - especially 0Ls - to take these thoughts into serious consideration. You might conclude that this is still what you want, and if so, good on you. Just don't disregard this as "just another troll," because there is a lot of truth in that post.

I must admit I pretty much discounted the OP immediately. Not because it was pessimistic, but because it was absolute. Because there is risk of huge debt without the payoff of a large salary, don't do it. I equally ignore the people that say debt isn't an issue for anyone that isn't T14. Anyone preaching that one option is the only one worth considering is someone I ignore.

[kalvano]

How much of this is geared at markets like NYC and DC, etc? The markets that everybody wants to go to?

I only ask because all of the 2L / 3L students I have asked or spoken with at my school have something lined up. Not necessarily what they wanted, but something that pays. Obviously, I haven't spoken to every single one, but still.

I wonder how much the "Biglaw or bust" mentality that a lot of people here have impacts the way people look at their prospects after school. An overcrowded legal market is not a new phenomenon...law schools have been graduating more lawyers than there are available jobs for 30+ years now.

[whymeohgodno]

Out of curiosity: how many people made it through the first post before deciding that they didn't believe it?

I'm curious because I think that TLS is often accused of being too optimistic, and I think there is something to that. People throw around 2009 NLJ hiring as if that is in any way indicative of what 0L/1Ls will be facing -- THOSE PEOPLE DID OCI IN 2007.

Anyway, I'm only asking you all - especially 0Ls - to take these thoughts into serious consideration. You might conclude that this is still what you want, and if so, good on you. Just don't disregard this as "just another troll," because there is a lot of truth in that post.

Really? All those TTT threads and t14 or bust elitism makes me think otherwise....

You're in for a big surprise if you plan to graduate from Cooley then, and what NR said.

This post makes no sense.

Where did you learn to read?

[spondee]

I only ask because all of the 2L / 3L students I have asked or spoken with at my school have something lined up.

It's only the beginning of September, and they each already have something lined up?

[rayiner]

Out of curiosity: how many people made it through the first post before deciding that they didn't believe it?

I'm curious because I think that TLS is often accused of being too optimistic, and I think there is something to that. People throw around 2009 NLJ hiring as if that is in any way indicative of what 0L/1Ls will be facing -- THOSE PEOPLE DID OCI IN 2007.

Anyway, I'm only asking you all - especially 0Ls - to take these thoughts into serious consideration. You might conclude that this is still what you want, and if so, good on you. Just don't disregard this as "just another troll," because there is a lot of truth in that post.

Really? All those TTT threads and t14 or bust elitism makes me think otherwise....

It's not elitism in my book - it's the industry. The same law students on this forum will go and potentially start hiring in the relatively short future; chances are that this "elitism" is for the better and if anything, should be YHSC or bust.

I had a biglaw partner after a callback make a joke to me about someone going to a shitty school (solid regional T2).

[12262010]

I only ask because all of the 2L / 3L students I have asked or spoken with at my school have something lined up.

It's only the beginning of September, and they each already have something lined up?

lol

[blackwater88]

Out of curiosity: how many people made it through the first post before deciding that they didn't believe it?

I'm curious because I think that TLS is often accused of being too optimistic, and I think there is something to that. People throw around 2009 NLJ hiring as if that is in any way indicative of what 0L/1Ls will be facing -- THOSE PEOPLE DID OCI IN 2007.

Anyway, I'm only asking you all - especially 0Ls - to take these thoughts into serious consideration. You might conclude that this is still what you want, and if so, good on you. Just don't disregard this as "just another troll," because there is a lot of truth in that post.

Really? All those TTT threads and t14 or bust elitism makes me think otherwise....

You're in for a big surprise if you plan to graduate from Cooley then, and what NR said.

This post makes no sense.

Where did you learn to read?

It seemed like you had a chip on your shoulder, that's all.