How do you all feel about Biglaw? Forum

[johndhi]

I don't know where this whole I just want to make 100K at some point in time and have a nice family life, be a t-ball coach, retire early mentality comes from. It frankly is not a reality. Lawyer, banker, doctor, accountant, consultant, all of these jobs pay well (generally) and require alot of time. If you want to have a nice house, nice things, do "interesting work", be able to put kids through college, and spend the last 20 years of your life in retirement, then your are going to have to work...and work hard. Ofcourse, you could always take out a lot of deby, finance everything and just die before the bill collectors take everything. I mean your kids will pay it all off for you. Plus, what does it matter to you, you will be dead.

Sorry the movies aren't real boys and girls.

? I disagree if your goal is $100,000 at some point in time lol. Accountants, engineers, pharmacists, dentists, office managers (not all, but certainly some), etc. There are "a lot" of jobs/professions that can eventually pay $100,000 and leave plenty of time for a nice family life, be a t-ball coach, and retire before 66 lol. I think it is very much reality -- the only sticking point is they are really only accessible to those well educated.

I'm not saying they arent stressful at all or that they dont require a lot of time, but most of those i listed are 9-5 (8-5?) jobs w/ no work on weekends that can eventually top 3 figures and arent in the same ballpark of stress and time consumption as biglaw.

Working 'hard' is a relative term, so cant comment on that lol. But if education is the key to opportunities, a lot of these jobs exist.

fyi 100k = six figures. all the people you've met claiming six figs weren't making a mil a yr!

[legalized]

I don't know where this whole I just want to make 100K at some point in time and have a nice family life, be a t-ball coach, retire early mentality comes from. It frankly is not a reality. Lawyer, banker, doctor, accountant, consultant, all of these jobs pay well (generally) and require alot of time. If you want to have a nice house, nice things, do "interesting work", be able to put kids through college, and spend the last 20 years of your life in retirement, then your are going to have to work...and work hard. Ofcourse, you could always take out a lot of deby, finance everything and just die before the bill collectors take everything. I mean your kids will pay it all off for you. Plus, what does it matter to you, you will be dead.

Sorry the movies aren't real boys and girls.

? I disagree if your goal is $100,000 at some point in time lol. Accountants, engineers, pharmacists, dentists, office managers (not all, but certainly some), etc. There are "a lot" of jobs/professions that can eventually pay $100,000 and leave plenty of time for a nice family life, be a t-ball coach, and retire before 66 lol. I think it is very much reality -- the only sticking point is they are really only accessible to those well educated.

I'm not saying they arent stressful at all or that they dont require a lot of time, but most of those i listed are 9-5 (8-5?) jobs w/ no work on weekends that can eventually top 3 figures and arent in the same ballpark of stress and time consumption as biglaw.

Working 'hard' is a relative term, so cant comment on that lol. But if education is the key to opportunities, a lot of these jobs exist.

Doctors have paperwork to do after they see patients.

Office managers have the stress of hiring the right people, and firing the wrong ones, on the usually limited budget.

SOX makes all of what you just said a lie for the accounting field...if you are in the 6 figures range you are first in line to be strung up by your balls if an i was dotted wrong or a t not crossed. I know a Division controller at a Fortune 500 company who demoted HIMSELF to a plant controller for the company and it was a shock to everyone but no surprise to me because as an intern people share gripes with me they don't share with more powerful folks, and he had told me if SOX existed when he was graduating, he would never have worked for a public company, or maybe not even majored in accounting at all.

He got in the field to spend most of his time doing actual accounting, and thanks to the SOX ish he spends most of his time running around making paper trails to keep his rear end from being exposed due to someone else's negligence. He warned me even though I wasn't set for accounting that his advice to me in the working world is to have a paper trail for EVERYthing. He seemed very angry about the way SOX changed his job and very miserable.

So ahm yeah, life is hard and work is hard anyway you take it.

I use to say I don't want biglaw because I have heard people don't have time for children while working and that crushes the career prospects there for women...but then I realized a few things that are true for me but not a lot of other women my age getting out of law school:

a. I have a business degree and corporate finance experience...if there is any area of law I am immediately suited for upon graduation without excess need for training, it's actually corporate law. lol. I just have a fire inside for immigration and family law because they seem to more readily lend themselves to my own practice sooner or later.

b. I already have the amount of children I want. So the concern women have about taking time off and losing their advancement because they want to have children and must be out (if they give a damn about the kid's health) to breastfeed and all that...that doesn't apply to me. Matter of fact while they are out I can take over their work cause I will never have a need for such time off again.

c. My little one will be past kindergarten by the time I start working. I won't have a TODDLER to deal with who doesn't understand if you have to work extra some days and then be home regular time other days.

d. I have worked the rinky dink retail jobs that tend to attract women with children and no professional or M-F clerical job, because they are flexible and don't b*tch about time off. The pay of those jobs ensures that women with children who most need the money stay broke and can't do sh*t with any so called free time anyway. If you are going to be stuck in a work-home grind, there should be more to show for it than hanging on to a roof over your head.

e. Life with no money isn't noble, it's STRESSFUL and unpleasant.

f. I love suits. I don't like having to think about what I need to wear to work everyday. 50 of the same thing is FINE with me, it's basically another kind of uniform and uniform jobs save the fashion decisions being made every morning.

g. If I can work in a gas station while in school I can do anything else. Hard work doesn't faze me. Hard work for b.s. pay pisses me off though.

h. My culture is used to live-in helpers. I would have one from back home no problem if I got a biglaw job. I don't like sending kids out to strangers anyway, should be someone that stays and grows with the family. That's what I had when I was back home. It's just priced like a luxury here.

So when I re-evaluated, I realized with older children who don't need as much handholding, and the ability to afford a live-in helper and even a good private school, plus the business background I already have...biglaw might actually be suited to me. Plus they are always complaining about their lack of women and minorities. I can kill 3 birds with one stone for them, and never need maternity leave. Associate, female, minority, and no need for a mommy track. Super.

That said, I am getting into law wanting to do my own practice eventually, because I don't want to answer to someone else forever.

So I feel like biglaw is just one more option. If I don't go to a top school, I can erase it as an option because I am NOT killing myself to be top of the class. Biglaw is not holy grail for me, and while I like money because I know what it's like to need it and not have it, money can't rule me, exactly because I have learned how to live regardless of if money is in my life or not. Once it doesn't have that power over you you feel a lot freer to make decisions that work for you.

Are there any biglaw immigration/family law firms? Just wondering.

[motiontodismiss]

You won't have to answer to anyone but yourself and your clients if you're a partner that owns their clients (in other words, a significant and portable book of clients). They can't fire you if they'll lose more business by firing you than it costs to pay you.

Still, when you make money, you'll have to answer to someone.

[doyleoil]

I don't know where this whole I just want to make 100K at some point in time and have a nice family life, be a t-ball coach, retire early mentality comes from. It frankly is not a reality. Lawyer, banker, doctor, accountant, consultant, all of these jobs pay well (generally) and require alot of time. If you want to have a nice house, nice things, do "interesting work", be able to put kids through college, and spend the last 20 years of your life in retirement, then your are going to have to work...and work hard. Ofcourse, you could always take out a lot of deby, finance everything and just die before the bill collectors take everything. I mean your kids will pay it all off for you. Plus, what does it matter to you, you will be dead.

Sorry the movies aren't real boys and girls.

? I disagree if your goal is $100,000 at some point in time lol. Accountants, engineers, pharmacists, dentists, office managers (not all, but certainly some), etc. There are "a lot" of jobs/professions that can eventually pay $100,000 and leave plenty of time for a nice family life, be a t-ball coach, and retire before 66 lol. I think it is very much reality -- the only sticking point is they are really only accessible to those well educated.

I'm not saying they arent stressful at all or that they dont require a lot of time, but most of those i listed are 9-5 (8-5?) jobs w/ no work on weekends that can eventually top 3 figures and arent in the same ballpark of stress and time consumption as biglaw.

Working 'hard' is a relative term, so cant comment on that lol. But if education is the key to opportunities, a lot of these jobs exist.

finally someone around here has something useful and realistic to say, and the morons persist in their moronity

this site is chock full of rank stupidity

[doyleoil]

She claims DC is an epic, epic quality of life win. I debated the merits of arguing with her, but I have only ever visited DC, so I doubted I could do so effectively.

i'm not going to get into the whole debate over your abrupt switch in career perspectives - if the change is for the better, i'm all for it, no matter how it happened - and you know i think you should do whatever lets you pay off your debt (for as long as you're lucky enough to be allowed to do it)

but please for the LOVE OF GOD, STOP WRITING LIKE THIS

i can't decide what's worse - the first sentence's horrific attempt to be folksy or the second sentence's pretentious stab at sounding smart

[270910]

She claims DC is an epic, epic quality of life win. I debated the merits of arguing with her, but I have only ever visited DC, so I doubted I could do so effectively.

[strike]i'm not going to get into the whole debate over your abrupt switch in career perspectives - if the change is for the better, i'm all for it, no matter how it happened - and you know i think you should do whatever lets you pay off your debt (for as long as you're lucky enough to be allowed to do it)

but please for the LOVE OF GOD, STOP WRITING LIKE THIS

i can't decide what's worse - the first sentence's horrific attempt to be folksy or the second sentence's pretentious stab at sounding smart[/strike]

[DoubleChecks]

I don't know where this whole I just want to make 100K at some point in time and have a nice family life, be a t-ball coach, retire early mentality comes from. It frankly is not a reality. Lawyer, banker, doctor, accountant, consultant, all of these jobs pay well (generally) and require alot of time. If you want to have a nice house, nice things, do "interesting work", be able to put kids through college, and spend the last 20 years of your life in retirement, then your are going to have to work...and work hard. Ofcourse, you could always take out a lot of deby, finance everything and just die before the bill collectors take everything. I mean your kids will pay it all off for you. Plus, what does it matter to you, you will be dead.

Sorry the movies aren't real boys and girls.

? I disagree if your goal is $100,000 at some point in time lol. Accountants, engineers, pharmacists, dentists, office managers (not all, but certainly some), etc. There are "a lot" of jobs/professions that can eventually pay $100,000 and leave plenty of time for a nice family life, be a t-ball coach, and retire before 66 lol. I think it is very much reality -- the only sticking point is they are really only accessible to those well educated.

I'm not saying they arent stressful at all or that they dont require a lot of time, but most of those i listed are 9-5 (8-5?) jobs w/ no work on weekends that can eventually top 3 figures and arent in the same ballpark of stress and time consumption as biglaw.

Working 'hard' is a relative term, so cant comment on that lol. But if education is the key to opportunities, a lot of these jobs exist.

Doctors have paperwork to do after they see patients.

Office managers have the stress of hiring the right people, and firing the wrong ones, on the usually limited budget.

SOX makes all of what you just said a lie for the accounting field...if you are in the 6 figures range you are first in line to be strung up by your balls if an i was dotted wrong or a t not crossed. I know a Division controller at a Fortune 500 company who demoted HIMSELF to a plant controller for the company and it was a shock to everyone but no surprise to me because as an intern people share gripes with me they don't share with more powerful folks, and he had told me if SOX existed when he was graduating, he would never have worked for a public company, or maybe not even majored in accounting at all.

He got in the field to spend most of his time doing actual accounting, and thanks to the SOX ish he spends most of his time running around making paper trails to keep his rear end from being exposed due to someone else's negligence. He warned me even though I wasn't set for accounting that his advice to me in the working world is to have a paper trail for EVERYthing. He seemed very angry about the way SOX changed his job and very miserable.

So ahm yeah, life is hard and work is hard anyway you take it.

I use to say I don't want biglaw because I have heard people don't have time for children while working and that crushes the career prospects there for women...but then I realized a few things that are true for me but not a lot of other women my age getting out of law school:

a. I have a business degree and corporate finance experience...if there is any area of law I am immediately suited for upon graduation without excess need for training, it's actually corporate law. lol. I just have a fire inside for immigration and family law because they seem to more readily lend themselves to my own practice sooner or later.

b. I already have the amount of children I want. So the concern women have about taking time off and losing their advancement because they want to have children and must be out (if they give a damn about the kid's health) to breastfeed and all that...that doesn't apply to me. Matter of fact while they are out I can take over their work cause I will never have a need for such time off again.

c. My little one will be past kindergarten by the time I start working. I won't have a TODDLER to deal with who doesn't understand if you have to work extra some days and then be home regular time other days.

d. I have worked the rinky dink retail jobs that tend to attract women with children and no professional or M-F clerical job, because they are flexible and don't b*tch about time off. The pay of those jobs ensures that women with children who most need the money stay broke and can't do sh*t with any so called free time anyway. If you are going to be stuck in a work-home grind, there should be more to show for it than hanging on to a roof over your head.

e. Life with no money isn't noble, it's STRESSFUL and unpleasant.

f. I love suits. I don't like having to think about what I need to wear to work everyday. 50 of the same thing is FINE with me, it's basically another kind of uniform and uniform jobs save the fashion decisions being made every morning.

g. If I can work in a gas station while in school I can do anything else. Hard work doesn't faze me. Hard work for b.s. pay pisses me off though.

h. My culture is used to live-in helpers. I would have one from back home no problem if I got a biglaw job. I don't like sending kids out to strangers anyway, should be someone that stays and grows with the family. That's what I had when I was back home. It's just priced like a luxury here.

So when I re-evaluated, I realized with older children who don't need as much handholding, and the ability to afford a live-in helper and even a good private school, plus the business background I already have...biglaw might actually be suited to me. Plus they are always complaining about their lack of women and minorities. I can kill 3 birds with one stone for them, and never need maternity leave. Associate, female, minority, and no need for a mommy track. Super.

That said, I am getting into law wanting to do my own practice eventually, because I don't want to answer to someone else forever.

So I feel like biglaw is just one more option. If I don't go to a top school, I can erase it as an option because I am NOT killing myself to be top of the class. Biglaw is not holy grail for me, and while I like money because I know what it's like to need it and not have it, money can't rule me, exactly because I have learned how to live regardless of if money is in my life or not. Once it doesn't have that power over you you feel a lot freer to make decisions that work for you.

Are there any biglaw immigration/family law firms? Just wondering.

lol why did you even quote my post? your post barely even relates to it...and it certainly only addressed things i didnt talk about...

1) i never mentioned doctors; im assuming by doctors you didnt mean dentists and pharmacists...even so, it goes on to point 2

2) i made it clear i didnt say these jobs WERENT stressful, i just said you could have a 9-5 life, t-ball coach, etc. etc. while making 100k...and i was saying most of them were not AS stressful as biglaw (assuming you're not pushing yourself more to break that 100k, i.e. a dentist who owns 2 of his own places or something)

3) the rest of your post was just about your own goals and plans...good for you? lol, i dont see how SOX makes everything i said about accounting a lie...does it somehow make it longer than an 8-5 ish job? does it not eventually pay $100k? cuz i dont think i said anything else about accounting that you were 'trying' to disprove

[Jeff Mangum]

Ofcourse, you could always take out a lot of deby, finance everything and just die before the bill collectors take everything. I mean your kids will pay it all off for you. Plus, what does it matter to you, you will be dead.

Sorry the movies aren't real boys and girls.[/quote]

Children are not liable for the debts of their deceased parents. The estate will be liquidated to pay off creditors, but that it the parents' property, not the children's, and if the debt exceeds the value of the estate, the creditors are SOL. Patently false exaggerations undermine the credibility and strength of overall your argument, which I don't necessarily dispute.

[OperaSoprano]

She claims DC is an epic, epic quality of life win. I debated the merits of arguing with her, but I have only ever visited DC, so I doubted I could do so effectively.

[strike]i'm not going to get into the whole debate over your abrupt switch in career perspectives - if the change is for the better, i'm all for it, no matter how it happened - and you know i think you should do whatever lets you pay off your debt (for as long as you're lucky enough to be allowed to do it)

but please for the LOVE OF GOD, STOP WRITING LIKE THIS

i can't decide what's worse - the first sentence's horrific attempt to be folksy or the second sentence's pretentious stab at sounding smart[/strike]

I know you were just waiting to abuse that feature. <3

[Borhas]

pyramid scheme

[jhspaybar]

As a car salesman who is used to working every weekend no matter what(my last weekend off was easily 4 years ago), and sticking around until midnight on a regular basis big law doesn't really sound that bad. In fact, it will likely be one of my goals when I make it into law school. It's not as hard as it sounds to work 6 days a week, work 10ish hours a day, and still have plenty of time for family. I've been doing that and taking classes part time at the local college. High paying jobs demand a lot of time, it's just the way the world is.

[JollyGreenGiant]

I feel like the negativity of biglaw is overplayed. Sure, there are a few law firms where 70hrs/week is a norm. But more often than not, I think you'll be looking at 50-60 hrs which is no different than the blue collar 6-6 job my pops works. And I never once in my life thought that he was too busy working to properly raise a family.

[acdisagod]

I want biglaw solely so I can get it on my resume in order to get a much more relaxing corporate/prestigious or interesting government job

[d34d9823]

I feel like the negativity of biglaw is overplayed. Sure, there are a few law firms where 70hrs/week is a norm. But more often than not, I think you'll be looking at 50-60 hrs which is no different than the blue collar 6-6 job my pops works. And I never once in my life thought that he was too busy working to properly raise a family.

+1

According to AveryIndex, even Wachtell associates *only* average 70 hours a week. It's one of those deals where the 6 inch fish you catch is 18 inches by the time you tell your buddy about it.

[DoubleChecks]

I feel like the negativity of biglaw is overplayed. Sure, there are a few law firms where 70hrs/week is a norm. But more often than not, I think you'll be looking at 50-60 hrs which is no different than the blue collar 6-6 job my pops works. And I never once in my life thought that he was too busy working to properly raise a family.

+1

According to AveryIndex, even Wachtell associates *only* average 70 hours a week. It's one of those deals where the 6 inch fish you catch is 18 inches by the time you tell your buddy about it.

omfg i hope so. that would be such a relief. ive already mentally prepared myself for 70 hrs/wk if working in biglaw at a strong secondary market lol. anything less than that would be gravy.

[Renzo]

Ok, so a full saturday every other week. Honestly though, I'd rather work 16 hours a day M-R than 11 hours a day M-S.

you won't have that much control. That's why all of this division and math is theater of the absurd. You'll work when there's work you have to do, and you'll try to keep on pace to exceed (by however much) your billable hours target. You won't get weekends off if there's work to do on weekends, you won't be able to work 16 hours monday if there's not 16 hours of work to do on monday.

This is the truest and most important thing that anyone has said in this thread. Most people I talk to who are unhappy about biglaw jobs say isn't the hours, it's the unpredictability and lack of control. Working 65 hrs a week in nothing, if you schedule it. But having someone drop huge assignment on you at 5pm on friday before a big date, or having a big transaction roll in the week you parents are visiting will fuck with you.

[motiontodismiss]

Ok, so a full saturday every other week. Honestly though, I'd rather work 16 hours a day M-R than 11 hours a day M-S.

you won't have that much control. That's why all of this division and math is theater of the absurd. You'll work when there's work you have to do, and you'll try to keep on pace to exceed (by however much) your billable hours target. You won't get weekends off if there's work to do on weekends, you won't be able to work 16 hours monday if there's not 16 hours of work to do on monday.

This is the truest and most important thing that anyone has said in this thread. Most people I talk to who are unhappy about biglaw jobs say isn't the hours, it's the unpredictability and lack of control. Working 65 hrs a week in nothing, if you schedule it. But having someone drop huge assignment on you at 5pm on friday before a big date, or having a big transaction roll in the week you parents are visiting will fuck with you.

I think all parties involved (yourself, gfs/bfs, spouses, children, parents, siblings, extended family, siblings) need to understand that as a biglaw associate the firm owns you. I don't know about other parents, but my parents would totally understand that I can't take the week off if they came over on the week a big case rolled in.

[Knock]

I'm personally leaning away from Big Law myself, but I have to keep it an option just to get it on my resume, so I can exit to jobs i'd prefer, and to earn a wad of cash to store away.

Do you still have a chance at in-house counsel or the other "cushy" jobs often mentioned as some of the best work/life balance job options afforded to you after a few years in Big Law, if you go the PI route after LS?

[Doodsmack]

The thing to realize is that outside of big law, lawyers aren't quitting work at 4, heading to the beach, sipping margaritas and going "what are those other guys thinking?"

The law is a professional and inherently adversarial field that is going to demand time/energy and put you in stressful situations no matter what. Sure, big firm work can be the worst, but for an incremental increase in stress and hours pay can literally triple.

The point is that working in general isn't a picnic, and if you take the parts of big law that are objectively worse/harder/more stressful than any other office job (legal or otherwise) big law starts to look like fantasy land. The perks are incredible, the work can be interesting (if that's your thing), the exit options bountiful, and the compensation down right silly.

People saying things like 'rofl there are better ways to make money' are kidding themselves. Yeah, if you go into ibanking and do well you'll pull down more $$$ than a lawyer. But it's not like fresh faced grads from college are turning down 100K salaries to give law school a shot... it is VERY difficult to find an entry point to a six figure salary in this world, and it almost always requires hard work, sacrifice, and talent. Such is life.

Have you ever worked in biglaw?

[flyingpanda]

1. Work big law for a few years
2. Save money.
3. Use money on stocks and real estate.
4. Take easier job
5. Marry hot wife
6. Retire early to beachfront property.

This is a foolproof plan.

[motiontodismiss]

1. Work in biglaw
2. Save money
3. Work in biglaw some more
4. Build my dream house from scratch
5. Work in biglaw some more to pay for #4
6. Find a girl I like, live together, adopt kids, and go just short of marriage
7. Work in biglaw some more
8. Buy rental properties and summer properties
9. Work in biglaw, but part time, because otherwise I'd die of boredom
10. Drop dead

At least that's the plan for now.

[flyingpanda]

1. Work in biglaw
2. Save money
3. Work in biglaw some more
4. Build my dream house from scratch
5. Work in biglaw some more to pay for #4
6. Find a girl I like, live together, adopt kids, and go just short of marriage
7. Work in biglaw some more
8. Buy rental properties and summer properties
9. Work in biglaw, but part time, because otherwise I'd die of boredom
10. Drop dead

At least that's the plan for now.

I like my plan better because I hold off on my dream house and buy rental properties sooner. The less I work the happier I'll be. I'm not a fricking workaholic. Also I'd like to get married, but I don't give a crap about kids so I'll save some $$$ there too. Kids are expensive.

[motiontodismiss]

1. Work in biglaw
2. Save money
3. Work in biglaw some more
4. Build my dream house from scratch
5. Work in biglaw some more to pay for #4
6. Find a girl I like, live together, adopt kids, and go just short of marriage
7. Work in biglaw some more
8. Buy rental properties and summer properties
9. Work in biglaw, but part time, because otherwise I'd die of boredom
10. Drop dead

At least that's the plan for now.

I like my plan better because I hold off on my dream house and buy rental properties sooner. The less I work the happier I'll be. I'm not a fricking workaholic. Also I'd like to get married, but I don't give a crap about kids so I'll save some $$$ there too. Kids are expensive.

To each their own I guess. I could never see myself retiring. Ever. The closest I'll get is semiretirement (or an occasional sabbatical). I need the mental stimulation. As for building the dream house, it's been a fantasy of mine since 9th grade lol. And I'd like to live in it for a long time.

[Pearalegal]

Also I'd like to get married, but I don't give a crap about kids so I'll save some $$$ there too. Kids are expensive.

Hahaha...

I totally and completely want babies and a husband. I've going to train them (not the husband-I hope-I won't be able to train him) to be a kick ass soccer team one day.

[JollyGreenGiant]

1. Work in biglaw
2. Save money
3. Work in biglaw some more
4. Build my dream house from scratch
5. Work in biglaw some more to pay for #4
6. Find a girl I like, live together, adopt kids, and go just short of marriage
7. Work in biglaw some more
8. Buy rental properties and summer properties
9. Work in biglaw, but part time, because otherwise I'd die of boredom
10. Drop dead

At least that's the plan for now.

I like my plan better because I hold off on my dream house and buy rental properties sooner. The less I work the happier I'll be. I'm not a fricking workaholic. Also I'd like to get married, but I don't give a crap about kids so I'll save some $$$ there too. Kids are expensive.

To each their own I guess. I could never see myself retiring. Ever. The closest I'll get is semiretirement (or an occasional sabbatical). I need the mental stimulation. As for building the dream house, it's been a fantasy of mine since 9th grade lol. And I'd like to live in it for a long time.

My 9th grade house had secret doors and slides. Hell, my current dream house has those.