EDIT: LA Times Editorial: ABA treating you like cheap hooker Forum

[General Tso]

google "law job prospects"

google "legal job market"

I know that google is some scary specialized software but a few folks use it.

You don't think people are more likely to trust the information they get from a university than they find on some blog called "Big Debt Small Law?"

Yeah or the Skadden_Farts types with their LawSchoolScam.net sites. They seem very trustworthy.

[awesomepossum]

lol...you guys need some help with your google skills.

no wonder you can sympathize.

with those search terms I found

http://chronicle.com/article/Law-School ... _medium=en

http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2007/09/24/the ... ob-market/

http://money.cnn.com/2008/12/03/news/ec ... /index.htm

That would be enough for me to do some research on what the situation really is.

[Space_Cowboy]

google "law job prospects"

google "legal job market"

I know that google is some scary specialized software but a few folks use it.

You don't think people are more likely to trust the information they get from a university than they find on some blog called "Big Debt Small Law?"

if you open your window a little more you can see more than one search result.

HTH

Your wit is the awesomest! Seriously though, do you really think TTTs do a good job when it comes to presenting employment/salary data? I understand you believe the onus should be on the student to do the research, which is fine, but I don't think it justifies the very deceptive information many of these put out.

[Space_Cowboy]

lol...you guys need some help with your google skills.

no wonder you can sympathize.

with those search terms I found

http://chronicle.com/article/Law-School ... _medium=en

http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2007/09/24/the ... ob-market/

http://money.cnn.com/2008/12/03/news/ec ... /index.htm

That would be enough for me to do some research on what the situation really is.

Right. And schools do a job of selling why they're an exception to current woes and have nice, biased salary snapshots to convince you otherwise.

Anyhoo, I'm done here. This isn't going to affect me, but after someone pointed how incomplete UF's salary data was, I noticed how ridiculously deceptive T2 and lower schools are when it comes to presenting information. I think better information would help and don't believe its an unreasonable expectation.

[awesomepossum]

google "law job prospects"

google "legal job market"

I know that google is some scary specialized software but a few folks use it.

You don't think people are more likely to trust the information they get from a university than they find on some blog called "Big Debt Small Law?"

if you open your window a little more you can see more than one search result.

HTH

Your wit is the awesomest! Seriously though, do you really think TTTs do a good job when it comes to presenting employment/salary data? I understand you believe the onus should be on the student to do the research, which is fine, but I don't think it justifies the very deceptive information many of these put out.

No I'm sure they don't. Welcome to America. People who get fat off of high fructose corn syrup because the corn people say it's fine for you or people who buy penis enhancing pills because of the hot girls on the commercials that they should be able to get don't really have any recourse either.

Seriously, it's not THAT hard to get the information you need....ESPECIALLY in the age of the internet. I think it's silly to say you can't expect people to do some legwork before purchasing a product that costs over 100K.

[84Sunbird2000]

So, at best, because of the improper dataset emanating from the ABA, the average prospective student has conflicting and incomplete information even if they DO research job prospects from non-school, non-ABA sources. At worst, they have incomplete data masquerading as complete data. I also think students trust academic institutions to be bastions of fairness and honesty compared to the rest of the world, and the fact that the schools and the ABA fail these students SHOULD be a topic of great concern.

I blame the schools and ABA way more than I do students who have been trained and socialized to trust these institutions.

[Robert398]

e

[awesomepossum]

I'm not trying to argue that the schools are totally blameless. I'm just saying it's a natural consequence of the existing market.

What I'm trying to say is that if people aren't responsible consumers, then they are responsible as well. They aren't just victims...they're part of the problem.

It's not really one or the other. Both can be to blame.

[ps494]

I'm not trying to argue that the schools are totally blameless. I'm just saying it's a natural consequence of the existing market.

What I'm trying to say is that if people aren't responsible consumers, then they are responsible as well. They aren't just victims...they're part of the problem.

It's not really one or the other. Both can be to blame.

I agree, both are to blame. Except I expect this type of manipulation from the private sector, but when universities (especially state schools) stoop to this level, it's especially repugnant. I blame perspective law students for their naivete, but I blame law schools for there deceptiveness. The latter is worse.

[Cara]

I agree, evil is worse than dumb/ignorant.

[Robert398]

e

[Kohinoor]

Why can't you make students sign something before they can graduate, saying, "I promise to faithfully report my income and employment data to this school nine months from the date of graduation". Make it binding. That way, you'd have everybody report.

Dear 1Ls, why wouldn't the aforementioned document be enforceable as a contract?

[champ33]

You're the one suggesting that federally imposed response rate requirements on employment surveys and/or deliberately skewing the data are good ideas just because some people are too lazy or dumb to use a calculator.

Way to ignore the fact that TTTs skew the data by only probing select graduates for salary data. Also, never mind that students don't get actual access to the data. They get a snapshot of a sample biased towards the higher salaries. I'd love to know on what planet this constitutes adequate disclosure.

The bold section is very well put, and I really don't understand how this isn't being regulated. The only thing I can think is that the status quo is beneficial for those who should be fixing the problem.

[amputatedbrain]

Wow this thread really blew up . . . one poster a while back was right . . . I think the bigger issue is the ABA, not the kids who delude themselves into thinking their Cooley education is the key to a big bright tomorrow. The med school analogy is imperfect, but what if there were 200+ med schools, many of them pumping out shit doctors, to the point where going to med school wasn't even all that prestigious . . . the medical community wouldn't stand for it, yet somehow it happened to law.

[flcath]

These TTT students deserve what's coming to them: a life of poverty, crushing debt, and the disappointing failure of never being able to enter the profession for which they spent 3 years being educated. Actually, their plight gives me sadistic satisfaction, and makes me feel better about my own life and personal shortcomings.

Also, when your 85-year old grandmother gets cleaned out after she gives her credit card number to the nice man on the phone who says he needs it to fix a bank error in her favor: that makes me happy too! HaHa, stupid bitch!

Less-intelligent people getting manipulated by more-intelligent people for a profit is awesome! Survival of the fittest, I say! (Incidentally, I'm also against providing chemotherapy to those genetically weak enough to contract cancer.)

Go ABA! Do us Darwinist-capitalists proud!

[General Tso]

Wow this thread really blew up . . . one poster a while back was right . . . I think the bigger issue is the ABA, not the kids who delude themselves into thinking their Cooley education is the key to a big bright tomorrow. The med school analogy is imperfect, but what if there were 200+ med schools, many of them pumping out shit doctors, to the point where going to med school wasn't even all that prestigious . . . the medical community wouldn't stand for it, yet somehow it happened to law.

They mention in that article anti-trust concerns. The ABA has been sued in the past for trying to keep schools from gaining accreditation. I believe the most recent legal victory over accreditation was won by Barry University in the late 1990s. The reason the AMA has succeeded is because there is a belief that the quality of doctors must be kept extremely high since people's lives depend on them. But even this hasn't quite succeeded.....there are a number of med schools in the Caribbean that are like the TTTTs of law school. There are also DO schools.

[flcath]

Wow this thread really blew up . . . one poster a while back was right . . . I think the bigger issue is the ABA, not the kids who delude themselves into thinking their Cooley education is the key to a big bright tomorrow. The med school analogy is imperfect, but what if there were 200+ med schools, many of them pumping out shit doctors, to the point where going to med school wasn't even all that prestigious . . . the medical community wouldn't stand for it, yet somehow it happened to law.

They mention in that article anti-trust concerns. The ABA has been sued in the past for trying to keep schools from gaining accreditation. I believe the most recent legal victory over accreditation was won by Barry University in the late 1990s. The reason the AMA has succeeded is because there is a belief that the quality of doctors must be kept extremely high since people's lives depend on them. But even this hasn't quite succeeded.....there are a number of med schools in the Caribbean that are like the TTTTs of law school. There are also DO schools.

Caribbean med students do not receive federal loans of any kind, and it is *exceedingly* difficult to obtain a license to practice in the US from the vast majority of these schools--bear in mind that you only see the few who do manage to make it. DO schools (of which I believe there are 11 now), while at the low end of the med school spectrum, still have comparable quality to MD programs and are not in any way comparable to TTT or T4 law schools. Honestly, in terms of real student quality (which is not a fair way to compare MSs and LSs, as medicine is a more prestigious field), DO schools are still higher quality than most T25 law schools.

[Kobe_Teeth]

The ones to blame are the crappy schools and the idiots that attend them. These T3 and T4 schools are nothing but diploma factories.

I will not be going to a T14 and making billions the day I graduate, but still, I believe there are opportunities out there for those who go to reputable, decently-ranked schools.

I'm going to have to agree with that.

One (somewhat) promising statistic was that each year there are 30,000 new positions and about 45,000 JD's graduated. I feel confident I will I end up on the good end of that statistic, maybe not the best end of it but at least the good.

Also, something I've been thinking about for awhile, I don't entirely deplore the ABA's opening of new law schools. I like the idea of creating more law schools to get lawyers in the profession who WANT public defender and other low-paying public sector jobs. What bothers me is that the tuition costs aren't based on employment prospects. If i went to a t3, I wouldn't expect BigLaw. However, I would expect, if my grades were good, a solid local government job for about $50,000 to $65,000 (starting). If tuition wasn't astronomically high, I would be excited about that job. However, with the $100,000 in debt, starting at $50,000 and then getting married and having kids would make me want to commit suicide.

[General Tso]

Wow this thread really blew up . . . one poster a while back was right . . . I think the bigger issue is the ABA, not the kids who delude themselves into thinking their Cooley education is the key to a big bright tomorrow. The med school analogy is imperfect, but what if there were 200+ med schools, many of them pumping out shit doctors, to the point where going to med school wasn't even all that prestigious . . . the medical community wouldn't stand for it, yet somehow it happened to law.

They mention in that article anti-trust concerns. The ABA has been sued in the past for trying to keep schools from gaining accreditation. I believe the most recent legal victory over accreditation was won by Barry University in the late 1990s. The reason the AMA has succeeded is because there is a belief that the quality of doctors must be kept extremely high since people's lives depend on them. But even this hasn't quite succeeded.....there are a number of med schools in the Caribbean that are like the TTTTs of law school. There are also DO schools.

Caribbean med students do not receive federal loans of any kind, and it is *exceedingly* difficult to obtain a license to practice in the US from the vast majority of these schools--bear in mind that you only see the few who do manage to make it. DO schools (of which I believe there are 11 now), while at the low end of the med school spectrum, still have comparable quality to MD programs and are not in any way comparable to TTT or T4 law schools. Honestly, in terms of real student quality (which is not a fair way to compare MSs and LSs, as medicine is a more prestigious field), DO schools are still higher quality than most T25 law schools.

Nobody gives a rat's ass

[Aberzombie1892]

I'm sort of responding to earlier posts in this thread about competing with T3 and T4 schools.

As a general rule thumb, the top 10% from any school can get a job at a major law firm.

Fact.

The problem is that when there are fewer jobs,

the top 10%'s from lower schools will get jobs before people outside of the top 10% at higher schools (there is some give and take, but this is generally correct).

So the issue is, people in the T1/T14 are directly competing with graduates from "lower" ranked schools.

True someone outside the top 10% at Harvard would still have better chances than someone from Florida Coastal in the top 10%,

but I'm pretty sure there are one or two employers in Florida that would rather take the Florida Coastal grad because it would be a safer investment (flight risk/dissatisfaction with the work).

The best way to see it is in states with a ton of law schools (CA, TX, NY, FL).

Every time a lower ranked school sends out their top 10%, it cuts into the job opportunities for graduates from higher ranked schools.

i.e. which is why the University of Texas is not in the top 20 for Biglaw

or why after Fordham there is a significant drop off in the Biglaw placement for schools in NYC (and NY has like what, 14 law schools?). Fordham is, in theory, number 4. So there are 10 schools after it that send their top 10% to major firm jobs (I'm also counting after they clerk for a year - if they choose to do so).

The ultimate issue is that there are too many law programs.

However I don't see a way that the ABA could ever revoke accreditation.

I think a good starting place would be placing schools on probation if they are located in a state and their graduates pass the bar at a lower rate than the state pass rate (the policy would be: what is the point of having this school if the graduates cannot pass the bar exam at at least the state pass rate).

[kalvano]

The ones to blame are the crappy schools and the idiots that attend them. These T3 and T4 schools are nothing but diploma factories.

I will not be going to a T14 and making billions the day I graduate, but still, I believe there are opportunities out there for those who go to reputable, decently-ranked schools.

I'm going to have to agree with that.

One (somewhat) promising statistic was that each year there are 30,000 new positions and about 45,000 JD's graduated. I feel confident I will I end up on the good end of that statistic, maybe not the best end of it but at least the good.

Also, something I've been thinking about for awhile, I don't entirely deplore the ABA's opening of new law schools. I like the idea of creating more law schools to get lawyers in the profession who WANT public defender and other low-paying public sector jobs. What bothers me is that the tuition costs aren't based on employment prospects. If i went to a t3, I wouldn't expect BigLaw. However, I would expect, if my grades were good, a solid local government job for about $50,000 to $65,000 (starting). If tuition wasn't astronomically high, I would be excited about that job. However, with the $100,000 in debt, starting at $50,000 and then getting married and having kids would make me want to commit suicide.

To me, that's the main problem. I'm OK with paying a good bit a for a well-ranked, quality school, but it seems like your debt load doesn't change much even at a T3 or T4.

If you could graduate with only $20K in debt from one of those schools, then all of a sudden, they aren't so bad.

[flcath]

Wow this thread really blew up . . . one poster a while back was right . . . I think the bigger issue is the ABA, not the kids who delude themselves into thinking their Cooley education is the key to a big bright tomorrow. The med school analogy is imperfect, but what if there were 200+ med schools, many of them pumping out shit doctors, to the point where going to med school wasn't even all that prestigious . . . the medical community wouldn't stand for it, yet somehow it happened to law.

They mention in that article anti-trust concerns. The ABA has been sued in the past for trying to keep schools from gaining accreditation. I believe the most recent legal victory over accreditation was won by Barry University in the late 1990s. The reason the AMA has succeeded is because there is a belief that the quality of doctors must be kept extremely high since people's lives depend on them. But even this hasn't quite succeeded.....there are a number of med schools in the Caribbean that are like the TTTTs of law school. There are also DO schools.

Caribbean med students do not receive federal loans of any kind, and it is *exceedingly* difficult to obtain a license to practice in the US from the vast majority of these schools--bear in mind that you only see the few who do manage to make it. DO schools (of which I believe there are 11 now), while at the low end of the med school spectrum, still have comparable quality to MD programs and are not in any way comparable to TTT or T4 law schools. Honestly, in terms of real student quality (which is not a fair way to compare MSs and LSs, as medicine is a more prestigious field), DO schools are still higher quality than most T25 law schools.

Nobody gives a rat's ass

???

That would make sense coming from any other poster here, but you were the one that brought up the topic in the first place. Whenever this topic comes up, parallels are invariably drawn to the AMA and why they manage to do what the ABA doesn't and thus keep their profession solvent/respectable. You then attempted to discredit these comparisons by offering an inappropriate analogy, which I then attempted to point out was uninformed.

[BiteyTLS]

Wow this thread really blew up . . . one poster a while back was right . . . I think the bigger issue is the ABA, not the kids who delude themselves into thinking their Cooley education is the key to a big bright tomorrow. The med school analogy is imperfect, but what if there were 200+ med schools, many of them pumping out shit doctors, to the point where going to med school wasn't even all that prestigious . . . the medical community wouldn't stand for it, yet somehow it happened to law.

They mention in that article anti-trust concerns. The ABA has been sued in the past for trying to keep schools from gaining accreditation. I believe the most recent legal victory over accreditation was won by Barry University in the late 1990s. The reason the AMA has succeeded is because there is a belief that the quality of doctors must be kept extremely high since people's lives depend on them. But even this hasn't quite succeeded.....there are a number of med schools in the Caribbean that are like the TTTTs of law school. There are also DO schools.

Caribbean med students do not receive federal loans of any kind, and it is *exceedingly* difficult to obtain a license to practice in the US from the vast majority of these schools--bear in mind that you only see the few who do manage to make it. DO schools (of which I believe there are 11 now), while at the low end of the med school spectrum, still have comparable quality to MD programs and are not in any way comparable to TTT or T4 law schools. Honestly, in terms of real student quality (which is not a fair way to compare MSs and LSs, as medicine is a more prestigious field), DO schools are still higher quality than most T25 law schools.

I think most of us forget the fact that those folks at in the TTTT med programs are going to find themselves employed pretty quickly. I'm willing to make a bet that most TTTT students in the medical field do better than most T14 students. It's not due to intelligence either, but rather their common sense capabilities.

[General Tso]

They mention in that article anti-trust concerns. The ABA has been sued in the past for trying to keep schools from gaining accreditation. I believe the most recent legal victory over accreditation was won by Barry University in the late 1990s. The reason the AMA has succeeded is because there is a belief that the quality of doctors must be kept extremely high since people's lives depend on them. But even this hasn't quite succeeded.....there are a number of med schools in the Caribbean that are like the TTTTs of law school. There are also DO schools.

Caribbean med students do not receive federal loans of any kind, and it is *exceedingly* difficult to obtain a license to practice in the US from the vast majority of these schools--bear in mind that you only see the few who do manage to make it. DO schools (of which I believe there are 11 now), while at the low end of the med school spectrum, still have comparable quality to MD programs and are not in any way comparable to TTT or T4 law schools. Honestly, in terms of real student quality (which is not a fair way to compare MSs and LSs, as medicine is a more prestigious field), DO schools are still higher quality than most T25 law schools.

Nobody gives a rat's ass

???

That would make sense coming from any other poster here, but you were the one that brought up the topic in the first place. Whenever this topic comes up, parallels are invariably drawn to the AMA and why they manage to do what the ABA doesn't and thus keep their profession solvent/respectable. You then attempted to discredit these comparisons by offering an inappropriate analogy, which I then attempted to point out was uninformed.

It makes perfect sense. You are a nitpicking pedant.

[j.wellington]

Well, I'm convinced. Dental school it is.