2018 USNWR Rankings Forum

[LurkerTurnedMember]

In terms of placing students into elite jobs, the tiers are
1) T13
2) UT/GULC/Vandy/UCLA
3) USC/ND/BC/BU/GW/maybe Emory
4) Everyone else.

This is the best list I've seen.

Dividing up schools in the T13 is a useless exercise. HYS, CCN, and PVDNC have (11/13), for the sake of things, pretty much equal records in placing students into big law jobs with a few percentage point variation here and there that aren't substantial enough to make a new tier. Michigan has lower BL numbers, but a lot of that can be contributed to PI/Gov't self-selection. I would say that I'm skeptical of Berkeley's BL placement though, even though they too self self-select into PI/Gov't. 11.2% of graduates are at firms with <100 attorneys, which is the highest percentage in the T13 I believe. With that being said, my skepticism is probably mostly unfounded, and Berkeley is still safely above UT/GULC/Vandy/UCLA.

With respect to Boalt, there are a lot of students who self-select into public interest and government work. That also bleeds over into students who are looking into firms, such that there is a noticeable number of people who go into plaintiff side employment or some sort of civil rights firms, which tend to be smaller, i.e., less than 100 people. I know many Boalt students, many who did well during OCI and one who did not. And I know their grades because we're close. There were students with the worst grades you could get or close to it with no law review but had multiple callbacks and offers from big firms, and the the only one I know who struck out had better than average grades but their personality could use a bit improvement (as in if I were hiring I would not want to work with this person even if they had perfect grades and law review). So I'm confident Boalt has no trouble placing people wherever they want to go and the things that stop students from getting a biglaw job are uncontrollable things from Boalt's perspective, like personality or career interests. But take this with a grain of salt of ckurse because I don't know if the people and outcomes I just mentioned are representative of the whole school.

I think people are overreacting to the 4 spot drop. The school has fluctuated in rankings all the time. In 2004, it was 13th, then 6th in 2008, then mostly about 8th, now it went back down to 12th. And the school has always had lower lsat medians and gpa medians compared to other top 10 schools, and has actually recently lowered it's lsat median even more. These scores amount to a big portion of the ranking measurement. The news with the dean recently likely doesn't help either. I'm sure if they raised lsat medians by a couple points and the gpa median by a bit, which they can do easily if they wanted, it would go back up to about 7th or so. Regardless, Berkeley will always be Berkeley. Other schools are really good, too, but telling someone you went to Penn, UVA, Michigan, NYU, Northwestern, or Duke doesn't have the same ring to it or reaction from everyday people.

[somedeadman]

Nobody thinks Vandy is garbage.

Someone in this thread literally called vandy a garbage school, hence my question.

I believe it's somewhere in pages 8-12. I'd dig it up, but I'm on a cumbersome smart phone.

TLS can be hyperbolic but generally Vandy is a well regarded school. GULC, Vandy, UCLA and UT have all had really similar employment stats over the last 3 or so years. People like to give GULC a tough time about having mediocre numbers, but they are only mediocre when compared to the T13. Overall, the schools I mentioned are solid but are not worth anywhere near sticker price, since only about 45% of students can reasonably expect a Biglaw gig/clerkship. The sad part is that GULC places a ton of people into Biglaw, so if it dropped its class size by 150 or 200 people, it would have great employment stats (you can't really say that about its peer schools, though UCLA could probably shrink its class as well).

In terms of placing students into elite jobs, the tiers are
1) T13
2) UT/GULC/Vandy/UCLA
3) USC/ND/BC/BU/GW/maybe Emory
4) Everyone else.

And maybe washu at 3?

[Easterbork]

Here are the REAL rankings

Stanford
Harvard
Virginia
New York University
Columbia
Chicago
University of Pennsylvania
Yale
Michigan
Berkeley
Duke
Source: http://www.lawcrossing.com/article/9000 ... oyability/

[Kronk]

Here are the REAL rankings

Stanford
Harvard
Virginia
New York University
Columbia
Chicago
University of Pennsylvania
Yale
Michigan
Berkeley
Duke
Source: http://www.lawcrossing.com/article/9000 ... oyability/

i chuckled when he suggested stanford students were not pretentious

[bokampers]

Here are the REAL rankings

Stanford
Harvard
Virginia
New York University
Columbia
Chicago
University of Pennsylvania
Yale
Michigan
Berkeley
Duke
Source: http://www.lawcrossing.com/article/9000 ... oyability/

That's not even the Duke Law building. Can confirm.

[Tiago Splitter]

Yes, depending on grade distribution. But all decent law schools distribute grades such that the default is to be at median, and the outlier is to be significantly above or below. Most T14 schools only allow discretionary grades below median for exactly that reason.

Exactly. At t14s the 30th percentile and the 70th will usually be pretty close to each other going into oci. It becomes even harder for employers to distinguish when no one is allowed to post their GPA on documents they submit to those employers.

Staying at median just means staying within shouting distance of the mushy middle.

[Thomas Hagan, ESQ.]

Here are the REAL rankings

Stanford
Harvard
Virginia
New York University
Columbia
Chicago
University of Pennsylvania
Yale
Michigan
Berkeley
Duke
Source: http://www.lawcrossing.com/article/9000 ... oyability/

That's not even the Duke Law building. Can confirm.

Yeah wtf is that....
I think the only actual picture of the law school is Michigan...(Idk about Chicago)
At least they also got the NYU and Yale Law signs...

[Nebby]

Here are the REAL rankings

Stanford
Harvard
Virginia
New York University
Columbia
Chicago
University of Pennsylvania
Yale
Michigan
Berkeley
Duke
Source: http://www.lawcrossing.com/article/9000 ... oyability/

The description of CLS checks out

[Thomas Hagan, ESQ.]

Here are the REAL rankings

Stanford
Harvard
Virginia
New York University
Columbia
Chicago
University of Pennsylvania
Yale
Michigan
Berkeley
Duke
Source: http://www.lawcrossing.com/article/9000 ... oyability/

The description of CLS checks out

"Columbia's Proximity to New York City..."

[PrezRand]

I find it interesting that "staying at median" is presented as a norm here. Through mathematical chance, "staying at median" (or thereabouts) has a ~50% failure rate.

Yeah, these guys don't make sense all the time

[NCGuy]

Here are the REAL rankings

Stanford
Harvard
Virginia
New York University
Columbia
Chicago
University of Pennsylvania
Yale
Michigan
Berkeley
Duke
Source: http://www.lawcrossing.com/article/9000 ... oyability/

The description of CLS checks out

Shitting on Duke is the state pastime where I'm from so I agree with this article's description of Duke.

[goldenbear2020]

In terms of placing students into elite jobs, the tiers are
1) T13
2) UT/GULC/Vandy/UCLA
3) USC/ND/BC/BU/GW/maybe Emory
4) Everyone else.

This is the best list I've seen.

Dividing up schools in the T13 is a useless exercise. HYS, CCN, and PVDNC have (11/13), for the sake of things, pretty much equal records in placing students into big law jobs with a few percentage point variation here and there that aren't substantial enough to make a new tier. Michigan has lower BL numbers, but a lot of that can be contributed to PI/Gov't self-selection. I would say that I'm skeptical of Berkeley's BL placement though, even though they too self self-select into PI/Gov't. 11.2% of graduates are at firms with <100 attorneys, which is the highest percentage in the T13 I believe. With that being said, my skepticism is probably mostly unfounded, and Berkeley is still safely above UT/GULC/Vandy/UCLA.

Berkeley is unique among the T13 in that there is a significant "CA or bust" crowd who would take any CA job over a better job out of state. They also have a lot of patent-eligible students, some of whom go to small boutiques that pay decently.

[Dr.Degrees_Cr.Cash]

Here are the REAL rankings

Stanford
Harvard
Virginia
New York University
Columbia
Chicago
University of Pennsylvania
Yale
Michigan
Berkeley
Duke
Source: http://www.lawcrossing.com/article/9000 ... oyability/

The description of CLS checks out

Shitting on Duke is the state pastime where I'm from so I agree with this article's description of Duke.

The fact that every Duke grad get TFO of NC as fast as possible probably makes that game pretty easy.

[Rigo]

I find it interesting that "staying at median" is presented as a norm here. Through mathematical chance, "staying at median" (or thereabouts) has a ~50% failure rate.

Yeah, these guys don't make sense all the time

Median at schools is often a huge bubble though. Maybe 1/3 of the class. So it's harder than a coin flip to truly be below median. On the flip side it's harder to be above median too and many people get median pwned.
A plurality of students get median grades, so that's why we say to assume median.


E:scooped hard

[cavalier1138]

I find it interesting that "staying at median" is presented as a norm here. Through mathematical chance, "staying at median" (or thereabouts) has a ~50% failure rate.

Yeah, these guys don't make sense all the time

Have you read any of the replies to that post? The median can literally be over half of the students at a school, and everyone else can be above the median.

[bokampers]

Here are the REAL rankings

Stanford
Harvard
Virginia
New York University
Columbia
Chicago
University of Pennsylvania
Yale
Michigan
Berkeley
Duke
Source: http://www.lawcrossing.com/article/9000 ... oyability/

The description of CLS checks out

Shitting on Duke is the state pastime where I'm from so I agree with this article's description of Duke.

The fact that every Duke grad get TFO of NC as fast as possible probably makes that game pretty easy.

180

[cub1014]

Regardless, Berkeley will always be Berkeley. Other schools are really good, too, but telling someone you went to Penn, UVA, Michigan, NYU, Northwestern, or Duke doesn't have the same ring to it or reaction from everyday people.

Duke doesn't have the same reaction as Berkeley? You must live on the West Coast then because the reaction seems pretty equivalent. In fact I'd argue Duke has more pull outside the West Coast but that's been my experience.

[NCGuy]

Here are the REAL rankings

Stanford
Harvard
Virginia
New York University
Columbia
Chicago
University of Pennsylvania
Yale
Michigan
Berkeley
Duke
Source: http://www.lawcrossing.com/article/9000 ... oyability/

The description of CLS checks out

Shitting on Duke is the state pastime where I'm from so I agree with this article's description of Duke.

The fact that every Duke grad get TFO of NC as fast as possible probably makes that game pretty easy.

It's actually not that difficult to find graduates of Duke's undergrad and even other graduate schools in North Carolina. I see a fair amount of "Duke alumni" stickers. A lot of them stick around the Research Triangle area, which is objectively one of the most educated areas of the entire country.

I'm sorry that the law school attracts people who would rather have an office in Manhattan than Raleigh but don't apply the statistics of the law school to the entire school.

[Anon.y.mousse.]

Regardless, Berkeley will always be Berkeley. Other schools are really good, too, but telling someone you went to Penn, UVA, Michigan, NYU, Northwestern, or Duke doesn't have the same ring to it or reaction from everyday people.

Duke doesn't have the same reaction as Berkeley? You must live on the West Coast then because the reaction seems pretty equivalent. In fact I'd argue Duke has more pull outside the West Coast but that's been my experience.

True - lived in the Midwest my whole life and the only thing most people here associate Berkeley with are hippies. Legitimately didn't know it was a good school until recently. For the most part (except maybe Penn and NYU) the others are recognized as prestigious.

[NCGuy]

I find it interesting that "staying at median" is presented as a norm here. Through mathematical chance, "staying at median" (or thereabouts) has a ~50% failure rate.

Yeah, these guys don't make sense all the time

Median at schools is often a huge bubble though. Maybe 1/3 of the class. So it's harder than a coin flip to truly be below median. On the flip side it's harder to be above median too and many people get median pwned.
A plurality of students get median grades, so that's why we say to assume median.


E:scooped hard

How is this reflected on transcripts? I've never seen a law school transcript that spells out the GPA distribution. If the data set is:

4.00, 3.99, 3.899, 3.884, 3.880, 3.7, 3.6999

The 3.884 guy is THE median and there's no way for an employer to know how close the rest of the distribution is. I assume that exact ties aren't terribly common but I suppose that you could have a giant tie for the median rank.

[Rigo]

I find it interesting that "staying at median" is presented as a norm here. Through mathematical chance, "staying at median" (or thereabouts) has a ~50% failure rate.

Yeah, these guys don't make sense all the time

Median at schools is often a huge bubble though. Maybe 1/3 of the class. So it's harder than a coin flip to truly be below median. On the flip side it's harder to be above median too and many people get median pwned.
A plurality of students get median grades, so that's why we say to assume median.


E:scooped hard

How is this reflected on transcripts? I've never seen a law school transcript that spells out the GPA distribution. If the data set is:

4.00, 3.99, 3.899, 3.884, 3.880, 3.7, 3.6999

The 3.884 guy is THE median and there's no way for an employer to know how close the rest of the distribution is. I assume that exact ties aren't terribly common but I suppose that you could have a giant tie for the median rank.

You're being super technical here and it's not how median is in reality. Maybe it's because you went to Harvard and didn't have normal numeric grades with greater differentiation.
The median is a big fat bubble and it's hard to really differentiate between those people.

[+] Spoiler

Sort of like this graph. Picture the center 50% way more boxy than sloping if it helps you understand the lack of differentiation (as in a lot of people have the same GPA for all intents and purposes).
Employers know what the median at each school is and different percentile cutoffs.

[bitter_melon]

Nobody thinks Vandy is garbage.

Someone in this thread literally called vandy a garbage school, hence my question.

I believe it's somewhere in pages 8-12. I'd dig it up, but I'm on a cumbersome smart phone.

TLS can be hyperbolic but generally Vandy is a well regarded school. GULC, Vandy, UCLA and UT have all had really similar employment stats over the last 3 or so years. People like to give GULC a tough time about having mediocre numbers, but they are only mediocre when compared to the T13. Overall, the schools I mentioned are solid but are not worth anywhere near sticker price, since only about 45% of students can reasonably expect a Biglaw gig/clerkship. The sad part is that GULC places a ton of people into Biglaw, so if it dropped its class size by 150 or 200 people, it would have great employment stats (you can't really say that about its peer schools, though UCLA could probably shrink its class as well).

In terms of placing students into elite jobs, the tiers are
1) T13
2) UT/GULC/Vandy/UCLA
3) USC/ND/BC/BU/GW/maybe Emory
4) Everyone else.

What about WUSTL and Fordham?

[Rigo]

It's impossible to discern who the single perfectly and technically median student is, or even who the median dozen are. That's just the way the distribution is.

[NCGuy]

I find it interesting that "staying at median" is presented as a norm here. Through mathematical chance, "staying at median" (or thereabouts) has a ~50% failure rate.

Yeah, these guys don't make sense all the time

Median at schools is often a huge bubble though. Maybe 1/3 of the class. So it's harder than a coin flip to truly be below median. On the flip side it's harder to be above median too and many people get median pwned.
A plurality of students get median grades, so that's why we say to assume median.


E:scooped hard

How is this reflected on transcripts? I've never seen a law school transcript that spells out the GPA distribution. If the data set is:

4.00, 3.99, 3.899, 3.884, 3.880, 3.7, 3.6999

The 3.884 guy is THE median and there's no way for an employer to know how close the rest of the distribution is. I assume that exact ties aren't terribly common but I suppose that you could have a giant tie for the median rank.

You're being super technical here and it's not how median is in reality. Maybe it's because you went to Harvard and didn't have normal numeric grades with greater differentiation.
The median is a big fat bubble and it's hard to really differentiate between those people.

[+] Spoiler

Sort of like this graph. Picture the center 50% way more boxy than sloping if it helps you understand the lack of differentiation (as in a lot of people have the same GPA for all intents and purposes).
Employers know what the median at each school is and different percentile cutoffs.

Good point. I forget that Big Law firms are probably more familiar with the T14 than I give them credit for.

I did a dual degree and used my degrees to move into consulting so the world of legal hiring is a mystery to me.

[PrezRand]

I find it interesting that "staying at median" is presented as a norm here. Through mathematical chance, "staying at median" (or thereabouts) has a ~50% failure rate.

Yeah, these guys don't make sense all the time

Have you read any of the replies to that post? The median can literally be over half of the students at a school, and everyone else can be above the median.

50% of the students perform below the median. That would be a failure for students wanting biglaw