2018 USNWR Rankings Forum

[Monday]

.

[NCGuy]

We're complaining that a school in Tennessee places people in Georgia and Tennessee?

Are you all sleeping on Atlanta and Nashville as major markets?

[Thomas Hagan, ESQ.]

Why are people saying Vanderbilt is a garbage school? Their big law placement is almost 50^

They place 31% of their grads in TN/GA which aren't preferred locations for a lot of people.

What?

1. How many of that 31% in TN/GA went into BigLaw?
2. How do you know those 31% didn't prefer TN/GA?

1. That's unknown, but also seems irrelevant. Maybe you could expand on why this is important when we have overall biglaw numbers? Also, on that note, loved Kronk's post, though I'd argue Biglaw is actually the path of least resistance for T14 students and is not prestigious at all. Going for biglaw is more chasing money and the herd than chasing prestige (that would be more the clerkship route).
2. He didn't say they didn't. Stop getting defensive. But it does show Vanderbilt has a knack for putting people into those markets. That makes sense. Vandy is a regional school that caters to the South. If someone doesn't want to work there, then that's something to consider. And because most applicants do not want to work there, they disregard Vandy as a top flight school.

haha what? i legit am only saying that the statemet "They place 31% of their grads in TN/GA which aren't preferred locations for a lot of people" doesn't say much...

Original Quesiton Was: WHy does Vandy Suck, their biglaw placement is pretty solid.
Response: Yeah, but they place biglaw into TN/GA (without evidence) and those aren't preferred locations (makes the assumption that those people didn't go for TN/GA in the first place).

The referent of "a lot of people" is not Vanderbilt students. That refers instead to us (and perhaps other to-be lawyers who've successfully escaped TLS). TN/GA just aren't preferred locations for a lot of people in general, and this is precisely what goldenbear and gimli say. Applicants (again, us, and the majority of whom don't prefer TN/GA) will regard a school that places quite heavily in those locations as less than preferable to schools with better placement at their preferred locations. That those who work in TN/GA actually wanted to work in TN/GA in the first place doesn't say much, when we are discussing the "people" in the question "Why are people saying Vanderbilt is a garbage school?" since the "people" is us, the TLS trolls.

Again, while I agree with you, I was merely saying that the sentence "They place 31% of their grads in TN/GA which aren't preferred locations for a lot of people" does nothing to answer the original question. That's it.

I get that the vast majority of appicant's/law students/lawyers don't want to work in TN/GA. But just because Vandy places 31% in TN/GA doesn't mean much...that's like me saying that Northwestern is a better school that HLS because it places a higher percentage into BigLaw. A lot of things assumed and incorrect about that statement. I think it would be more helpful to have statistics on how many people get what they want coming out of a certain school. If UT/UCLA/Vandy students WANTED to stay in their respective regions as opposed to whether they were forced to stay there because they struck out at NYC/DC biglaw.

[emkay625]

Sports do bring money and money gives a school flexibility. Compare Michigan to NYU. Both schools started back in the early 1800's. Michigan's endowment is $9.7 billion while NYU's is $3.4 billion. A startling difference. Love em or hate em jock alums support their schools. Michigan's annual sports revenue is $160 million. The Ivy's started as a sports conference. Harvard endowment $37 billion Yale $25 billion.

Actually Michigan sports ran a 250 million dollar defecit this year ....

There is no way that number is correct. I believe they ran a deficit. But 250 million? My guess is it would be 10 million. 250 million is surely larger than the entire athletics department operating budget. Link?

[baseballfan660]

Sports do bring money and money gives a school flexibility. Compare Michigan to NYU. Both schools started back in the early 1800's. Michigan's endowment is $9.7 billion while NYU's is $3.4 billion. A startling difference. Love em or hate em jock alums support their schools. Michigan's annual sports revenue is $160 million. The Ivy's started as a sports conference. Harvard endowment $37 billion Yale $25 billion.

Actually Michigan sports ran a 250 million dollar defecit this year ....

There is no way that number is correct. I believe they ran a deficit. But 250 million? My guess is it would be 10 million. 250 million is surely larger than the entire athletics department operating budget. Link?

http://sports.yahoo.com/video/michigan- ... 20973.html could be fake news who knows

[BVest]

Sports do bring money and money gives a school flexibility. Compare Michigan to NYU. Both schools started back in the early 1800's. Michigan's endowment is $9.7 billion while NYU's is $3.4 billion. A startling difference. Love em or hate em jock alums support their schools. Michigan's annual sports revenue is $160 million. The Ivy's started as a sports conference. Harvard endowment $37 billion Yale $25 billion.

Actually Michigan sports ran a 250 million dollar defecit this year ....

There is no way that number is correct. I believe they ran a deficit. But 250 million? My guess is it would be 10 million. 250 million is surely larger than the entire athletics department operating budget. Link?

http://sports.yahoo.com/video/michigan- ... 20973.html could be fake news who knows

Debt ≠ Deficit.

[Monday]

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[emkay625]

Sports do bring money and money gives a school flexibility. Compare Michigan to NYU. Both schools started back in the early 1800's. Michigan's endowment is $9.7 billion while NYU's is $3.4 billion. A startling difference. Love em or hate em jock alums support their schools. Michigan's annual sports revenue is $160 million. The Ivy's started as a sports conference. Harvard endowment $37 billion Yale $25 billion.

Actually Michigan sports ran a 250 million dollar defecit this year ....

There is no way that number is correct. I believe they ran a deficit. But 250 million? My guess is it would be 10 million. 250 million is surely larger than the entire athletics department operating budget. Link?

http://sports.yahoo.com/video/michigan- ... 20973.html could be fake news who knows

Yeah that's not a deficit.

I have 9 zillion dollars in law school debt. That doesn't mean I ran a 9 trillion dollar deficit last year.

[Hikikomorist]

Again, while I agree with you, I was merely saying that the sentence "They place 31% of their grads in TN/GA which aren't preferred locations for a lot of people" does nothing to answer the original question. That's it.

I get that the vast majority of appicant's/law students/lawyers don't want to work in TN/GA. But just because Vandy places 31% in TN/GA doesn't mean much...that's like me saying that Northwestern is a better school that HLS because it places a higher percentage into BigLaw. A lot of things assumed and incorrect about that statement. I think it would be more helpful to have statistics on how many people get what they want coming out of a certain school. If UT/UCLA/Vandy students WANTED to stay in their respective regions as opposed to whether they were forced to stay there because they struck out at NYC/DC biglaw.

It does answer the question, though: it shows why we see Vanderbilt as more of a regional school, and TLS in general enjoys hating on regional schools (see arguments surrounding UT's T14 status). It's not relevant that regional school students had planned all along to stay in their respective regions or "settled" after striking out. Neither scenario contradicts the fact that Vanderbilt is more of a regional school.

Your points are more about whether Vanderbilt actually is garbage and that, as you correctly say, cannot be answered with just that 31% TN/GA figure. But what was asked and what we are talking here are TLS opinions. Outside of TLS, people aren't going around saying Vanderbilt is garbage.

TLS doesn't typically hate on regional schools.

[PrezRand]

Again, while I agree with you, I was merely saying that the sentence "They place 31% of their grads in TN/GA which aren't preferred locations for a lot of people" does nothing to answer the original question. That's it.

I get that the vast majority of appicant's/law students/lawyers don't want to work in TN/GA. But just because Vandy places 31% in TN/GA doesn't mean much...that's like me saying that Northwestern is a better school that HLS because it places a higher percentage into BigLaw. A lot of things assumed and incorrect about that statement. I think it would be more helpful to have statistics on how many people get what they want coming out of a certain school. If UT/UCLA/Vandy students WANTED to stay in their respective regions as opposed to whether they were forced to stay there because they struck out at NYC/DC biglaw.

It does answer the question, though: it shows why we see Vanderbilt as more of a regional school, and TLS in general enjoys hating on regional schools (see arguments surrounding UT's T14 status). It's not relevant that regional school students had planned all along to stay in their respective regions or "settled" after striking out. Neither scenario contradicts the fact that Vanderbilt is more of a regional school.

Your points are more about whether Vanderbilt actually is garbage and that, as you correctly say, cannot be answered with just that 31% TN/GA figure. But what was asked and what we are talking here are TLS opinions. Outside of TLS, people aren't going around saying Vanderbilt is garbage.

We don't even know if regional schools such as Vandy/UT/UCLA are incapable of placing students nationally so viewing Vandy as a regional school because students self-select is not really a good argument

[Gitaroo_Dude]

This whole discussion seems pretty moot, because I don't really think anyone "hates" on Vandy outside of trying to get a rise out of people.

[Monday]

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[PrezRand]

Again, while I agree with you, I was merely saying that the sentence "They place 31% of their grads in TN/GA which aren't preferred locations for a lot of people" does nothing to answer the original question. That's it.

I get that the vast majority of appicant's/law students/lawyers don't want to work in TN/GA. But just because Vandy places 31% in TN/GA doesn't mean much...that's like me saying that Northwestern is a better school that HLS because it places a higher percentage into BigLaw. A lot of things assumed and incorrect about that statement. I think it would be more helpful to have statistics on how many people get what they want coming out of a certain school. If UT/UCLA/Vandy students WANTED to stay in their respective regions as opposed to whether they were forced to stay there because they struck out at NYC/DC biglaw.

It does answer the question, though: it shows why we see Vanderbilt as more of a regional school, and TLS in general enjoys hating on regional schools (see arguments surrounding UT's T14 status). It's not relevant that regional school students had planned all along to stay in their respective regions or "settled" after striking out. Neither scenario contradicts the fact that Vanderbilt is more of a regional school.

Your points are more about whether Vanderbilt actually is garbage and that, as you correctly say, cannot be answered with just that 31% TN/GA figure. But what was asked and what we are talking here are TLS opinions. Outside of TLS, people aren't going around saying Vanderbilt is garbage.

We don't even know if regional schools such as Vandy/UT/UCLA are incapable of placing students nationally so viewing Vandy as a regional school because students self-select is not really a good argument

I said self-selection is irrelevant to the definition so cheers for the straw man! I also don't see how anyone could possibly measure the capability (or incapability) of a school's placement without reference to past graduates' placement figures, and placement figures, which do not take into account self-selection, are what define a school as a regional school.

Your argument doesn't make any sense, but carry on

[Thomas Hagan, ESQ.]

Again, while I agree with you, I was merely saying that the sentence "They place 31% of their grads in TN/GA which aren't preferred locations for a lot of people" does nothing to answer the original question. That's it.

I get that the vast majority of appicant's/law students/lawyers don't want to work in TN/GA. But just because Vandy places 31% in TN/GA doesn't mean much...that's like me saying that Northwestern is a better school that HLS because it places a higher percentage into BigLaw. A lot of things assumed and incorrect about that statement. I think it would be more helpful to have statistics on how many people get what they want coming out of a certain school. If UT/UCLA/Vandy students WANTED to stay in their respective regions as opposed to whether they were forced to stay there because they struck out at NYC/DC biglaw.

It does answer the question, though: it shows why we see Vanderbilt as more of a regional school, and TLS in general enjoys hating on regional schools (see arguments surrounding UT's T14 status). It's not relevant that regional school students had planned all along to stay in their respective regions or "settled" after striking out. Neither scenario contradicts the fact that Vanderbilt is more of a regional school.

Your points are more about whether Vanderbilt actually is garbage and that, as you correctly say, cannot be answered with just that 31% TN/GA figure. But what was asked and what we are talking here are TLS opinions. Outside of TLS, people aren't going around saying Vanderbilt is garbage.

We don't even know if regional schools such as Vandy/UT/UCLA are incapable of placing students nationally so viewing Vandy as a regional school because students self-select is not really a good argument

I said self-selection is irrelevant to the definition so cheers for the straw man! I also don't see how anyone could possibly measure the capability (or incapability) of a school's placement without reference to past graduates' placement figures, and placement figures, which do not take into account self-selection, are what define a school as a regional school.

Jeez...

Okay, then I guess Columbia and NYU are also both regional schools because they place 75% of their graduates into the New York market.

[trooper10538]

I will be applying next cycle, but I must ask why all the hate towards UT? Some posts on here make it sound like you'll never get a job going to UT. As Mike Ditka would say c'mon man!

[rpupkin]

I will be applying next cycle, but I must ask why all the hate towards UT? Some posts on here make it sound like you'll never get a job going to UT. As Mike Ditka would say c'mon man!

Here's the thing, trooper: the rankings are a huge joke; they're meaningless in the real world of legal employment. So many posters--myself included--take these threads as an opportunity to troll/flame/mock. You shouldn't take anything in this thread seriously.

UT is an excellent choice for someone who wants to work in Texas and who is okay with the prospect of not getting big law. There's nothing wrong with the school.

[PrezRand]

I will be applying next cycle, but I must ask why all the hate towards UT? Some posts on here make it sound like you'll never get a job going to UT. As Mike Ditka would say c'mon man!

Here's the thing, trooper: the rankings are a huge joke; they're meaningless in the real world of legal employment. So many posters--myself included--take these threads as an opportunity to troll/flame/mock. You shouldn't take anything in this thread seriously.

UT is an excellent choice for someone who wants to work in Texas and who is okay with the prospect of not getting big law. There's nothing wrong with the school.

I hate when people say this. There's no guarantee of biglaw from any school outside the t6 if we are being honest.

technical

[rpupkin]

I will be applying next cycle, but I must ask why all the hate towards UT? Some posts on here make it sound like you'll never get a job going to UT. As Mike Ditka would say c'mon man!

Here's the thing, trooper: the rankings are a huge joke; they're meaningless in the real world of legal employment. So many posters--myself included--take these threads as an opportunity to troll/flame/mock. You shouldn't take anything in this thread seriously.

UT is an excellent choice for someone who wants to work in Texas and who is okay with the prospect of not getting big law. There's nothing wrong with the school.

I hate when people say this. There's no guarantee of biglaw from any school outside the t6 if we are being honest.

Why do you "hate" what I said? Isn't it entirely consistent with what you wrote?

[Rigo]

I will be applying next cycle, but I must ask why all the hate towards UT? Some posts on here make it sound like you'll never get a job going to UT. As Mike Ditka would say c'mon man!

Here's the thing, trooper: the rankings are a huge joke; they're meaningless in the real world of legal employment. So many posters--myself included--take these threads as an opportunity to troll/flame/mock. You shouldn't take anything in this thread seriously.

UT is an excellent choice for someone who wants to work in Texas and who is okay with the prospect of not getting big law. There's nothing wrong with the school.

I hate when people say this. There's no guarantee of biglaw from any school outside the t6 if we are being honest.

technical

You're not guaranteed biglaw in the T6 either.

[chargers21]

.

[PrezRand]

I will be applying next cycle, but I must ask why all the hate towards UT? Some posts on here make it sound like you'll never get a job going to UT. As Mike Ditka would say c'mon man!

Here's the thing, trooper: the rankings are a huge joke; they're meaningless in the real world of legal employment. So many posters--myself included--take these threads as an opportunity to troll/flame/mock. You shouldn't take anything in this thread seriously.

UT is an excellent choice for someone who wants to work in Texas and who is okay with the prospect of not getting big law. There's nothing wrong with the school.

I hate when people say this. There's no guarantee of biglaw from any school outside the t6 if we are being honest.

Why do you "hate" what I said? Isn't it entirely consistent with what you wrote?

Not entirely

[rpupkin]

UT is an excellent choice for someone who wants to work in Texas and who is okay with the prospect of not getting big law. There's nothing wrong with the school.

I hate when people say this. There's no guarantee of biglaw from any school outside the t6 if we are being honest.

Why do you "hate" what I said? Isn't it entirely consistent with what you wrote?

Not entirely

I honestly don't understand what you're talking about. Would you mind explaining?

[PrezRand]

I will be applying next cycle, but I must ask why all the hate towards UT? Some posts on here make it sound like you'll never get a job going to UT. As Mike Ditka would say c'mon man!

Here's the thing, trooper: the rankings are a huge joke; they're meaningless in the real world of legal employment. So many posters--myself included--take these threads as an opportunity to troll/flame/mock. You shouldn't take anything in this thread seriously.

UT is an excellent choice for someone who wants to work in Texas and who is okay with the prospect of not getting big law. There's nothing wrong with the school.

I hate when people say this. There's no guarantee of biglaw from any school outside the t6 if we are being honest.

technical

There's a massive gulf between #14 UT and #13 Cornell though in terms of BL employment. UT is great for getting Tx jobs, great for getting Tx biglaw, but not so great for getting BL in general

I get that but I feel like this forum sometimes suggests that going to a school that isn't t20 like UCLA is a bad idea if biglaw is your goal. What if you want a decent chance at biglaw while avoiding massive debt? Yeah, a school where if you are at the median is better, but there is still no guarantee. The expression, biglaw or bust is always talked about and there are really only 6 schools that guarantee biglaw if you want it I don't feel like discussing this anymore so I'll leave it at that.

[chargers21]

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[rpupkin]

I get that but I feel like this forum sometimes suggests that going to a school that isn't t20 like UCLA is a bad idea if biglaw is your goal. What if you want a decent chance at biglaw while avoiding massive debt? Yeah, a school where if you are at the median is better, but there is still no guarantee. The expression, biglaw or bust is always talked about and there are really only 6 schools that guarantee biglaw if you want it I don't feel like discussing this anymore so I'll leave it at that.

I read TLS all the time and I have not noticed that "the expression big law or bust is always talked about." It seems like you have a chip on your shoulder that's distorting how you understand other people's arguments and positions.