Latest employment data Forum

[starry eyed]

lol this whole thing is a series of assumptions.. for example, am i gonna be in the 70% that actually gets employed? by logic, no one should be going to law school, it's pointless assigning universal BLFC grades when they don't tell the whole story.

you don't have to use shit like transfers and unicorn jobs when making a decision, but at least consider it- don't discount it bc tls told you

[starry eyed]

the fact that so many 0L's are alarmed about H and Y proves that the pure number approach is flawed.

[Rigo]

Not pointless. It's a useful proxy for placement power, albeit the numbers shouldn't be taken solely at face value when choosing between two schools.

Nobody is saying there aren't nuances here.

[Rigo]

the fact that so many 0L's are alarmed about H and Y proves that the pure number approach is flawed.

I think it just shows that most 0L's don't understand the issues. Just because some people don't get it doesn't mean the ABA report isn't the most useful measure of employment outcomes out there.

[starry eyed]

the fact that so many 0L's are alarmed about H and Y proves that the pure number approach is flawed.

I think it just shows that most 0L's don't understand the issues. Just because some people don't get it doesn't mean the ABA report isn't the most useful measure of employment outcomes out there.

yea but we shove it down their throats with kneejerk RETAKE replies- without reminding them to consider softer issues ie. intricately comparing two schools is possible

i'm not saying aba reports shouldn't be 90% of your decision, it should be.

also almost no one on here ever considers COL differences. shitlaw in NY or DC would be infinitely worse than low COL areas. So people going to Fordham and GW bc they have 'good' BLFC doesn't mention what happens to the 50% if the class in DC working shitlaw- those people are in ten worse times worse shape than my classmate who went to the local TTT who won't be working biglaw but have an 80% chance of making 55k in a low COL area.

[Rigo]

More times than not, applicants want us to compare two schools that won't help them achieve their goals. At all. No nuance needed.

[chuckbass]

Less talk, more bigdata

[Rigo]

Less talk, more bigdata

Go study.

[Tiago Splitter]

also almost no one on here ever considers COL differences. shitlaw in NY or DC would be infinitely worse than low COL areas. So people going to Fordham and GW bc they have 'good' BLFC doesn't mention what happens to the 50% if the class in DC working shitlaw- those people are in ten worse times worse shape than my classmate who went to the local TTT who won't be working biglaw but have an 80% chance of making 55k in a low COL area.

COL differences are a big reason why everyone hates on Fordham and GW despite otherwise decent placement.

And let's not get too carried away with the LSU salary data.

[starry eyed]

also almost no one on here ever considers COL differences. shitlaw in NY or DC would be infinitely worse than low COL areas. So people going to Fordham and GW bc they have 'good' BLFC doesn't mention what happens to the 50% if the class in DC working shitlaw- those people are in ten worse times worse shape than my classmate who went to the local TTT who won't be working biglaw but have an 80% chance of making 55k in a low COL area.

COL differences are a big reason why everyone hates on Fordham and GW despite otherwise decent placement.

And let's not get too carried away with the LSU salary data.

LOL

[Iwanttolawschool]

Less talk, more bigdata

Seriously though.

[Johann]

Less talk, more bigdata

Seriously though.

This is the exact reason we are talking.

I know my firm would never give someone at notre dame a bump over wustl. But now the numbers will probably indicate to 0ls that notre dame is better for biglaw placement. I don't know the reason behind the number difference - but it's almost definitely not that nd is more highly regarded than wustl. Maybe the transfers make a difference, maybe people with lower loans choose different career paths than biglaw, maybe notre dames career services is better and encourages mass mailing or something, maybe next year everyone deciding between nd and wustl who wants biglaw will self select to nd and perpetuate the statistic - but the bottom line is I don't think there's a biglaw firm that would give an edge to a nd student over a wustl student.
But yes obviously the data is the best we have. But there is a shitload of noise in the data as Nate silver would say and your analysis has to account for that. The best way to look at the data may actually be looking at the 2-10 data just as heavily as the BLFC as a negative.

[twenty 8]

Even for those already in school or are attorneys, these employment stats are nevertheless interesting. Granted, the ivy and the T14 school seeker won’t be astonished that elite schools give them the best shot at a good firm. For an OL, the data probably won’t have a substantial bearing on their thinking unless they are choosing between instate schools. Even then they undoubtedly recognize that ’14 stats are not particularly pertinent to ’17. Albeit, they are still interesting to look at. Great job with the data base.

[starry eyed]

Less talk, more bigdata

Seriously though.

This is the exact reason we are talking.

I know my firm would never give someone at notre dame a bump over wustl. But now the numbers will probably indicate to 0ls that notre dame is better for biglaw placement. I don't know the reason behind the number difference - but it's almost definitely not that nd is more highly regarded than wustl. Maybe the transfers make a difference, maybe people with lower loans choose different career paths than biglaw, maybe notre dames career services is better and encourages mass mailing or something, maybe next year everyone deciding between nd and wustl who wants biglaw will self select to nd and perpetuate the statistic - but the bottom line is I don't think there's a biglaw firm that would give an edge to a nd student over a wustl student.
But yes obviously the data is the best we have. But there is a shitload of noise in the data as Nate silver would say and your analysis has to account for that. The best way to look at the data may actually be looking at the 2-10 data just as heavily as the BLFC as a negative.

Posts like these are the most helpful, idk why you get so much hate around here.

[Effingham]

Less talk, more bigdata

Seriously though.

This is the exact reason we are talking.

I know my firm would never give someone at notre dame a bump over wustl. But now the numbers will probably indicate to 0ls that notre dame is better for biglaw placement. I don't know the reason behind the number difference - but it's almost definitely not that nd is more highly regarded than wustl. Maybe the transfers make a difference, maybe people with lower loans choose different career paths than biglaw, maybe notre dames career services is better and encourages mass mailing or something, maybe next year everyone deciding between nd and wustl who wants biglaw will self select to nd and perpetuate the statistic - but the bottom line is I don't think there's a biglaw firm that would give an edge to a nd student over a wustl student.
But yes obviously the data is the best we have. But there is a shitload of noise in the data as Nate silver would say and your analysis has to account for that. The best way to look at the data may actually be looking at the 2-10 data just as heavily as the BLFC as a negative.

I understand your point, but the data doesn't indicate a real difference in biglaw hiring between ND and WUSTL - it is the clerkships that account for the real difference, where ND does have a legitimate advantage.

[Tiago Splitter]

I understand your point, but the data doesn't indicate a real difference in biglaw hiring between ND and WUSTL - it is the clerkships that account for the real difference, where ND does have a legitimate advantage.

I assume Johann's point is that small differences are meaningless. For those of us who follow this stuff that point is pretty obvious but for 0L's just coming across this information seeing an ordinal ranking of schools might lead them to put too much importance on minor differences.

[Effingham]

I understand your point, but the data doesn't indicate a real difference in biglaw hiring between ND and WUSTL - it is the clerkships that account for the real difference, where ND does have a legitimate advantage.

I assume Johann's point is that small differences are meaningless. For those of us who follow this stuff that point is pretty obvious but for 0L's just coming across this information seeing an ordinal ranking of schools might lead them to put too much importance on minor differences.

I understand - however, it is relevant to note that considering that it is generally possible to obtain biglaw after a federal clerkship, the current percentage difference in numbers shouldn't necessarily be seen as arbitrary.

[UVAIce]

I understand your point, but the data doesn't indicate a real difference in biglaw hiring between ND and WUSTL - it is the clerkships that account for the real difference, where ND does have a legitimate advantage.

I assume Johann's point is that small differences are meaningless. For those of us who follow this stuff that point is pretty obvious but for 0L's just coming across this information seeing an ordinal ranking of schools might lead them to put too much importance on minor differences.

I understand - however, it is relevant to note that considering that it is generally possible to obtain biglaw after a federal clerkship, the current percentage difference in numbers shouldn't necessarily be seen as arbitrary.

Not to burst anyone's bubble here, but federal clerkships on the ABA form include bankruptcy court and magistrate court clerkships along with Article III clerkships. Big difference in biglaw placement power between those three.

[Mozart Lacrimosa]

I understand your point, but the data doesn't indicate a real difference in biglaw hiring between ND and WUSTL - it is the clerkships that account for the real difference, where ND does have a legitimate advantage.

I assume Johann's point is that small differences are meaningless. For those of us who follow this stuff that point is pretty obvious but for 0L's just coming across this information seeing an ordinal ranking of schools might lead them to put too much importance on minor differences.

I understand - however, it is relevant to note that considering that it is generally possible to obtain biglaw after a federal clerkship, the current percentage difference in numbers shouldn't necessarily be seen as arbitrary.

Not to burst anyone's bubble here, but federal clerkships on the ABA form include bankruptcy court and magistrate court clerkships along with Article III clerkships. Big difference in biglaw placement power between those three.

Maybe there is a difference in placement power, but if you have a biglaw job don't you get a bonus regardless the type of federal clerkship?

[Saddle Up]

I realize this breakout is premature since we haven’t heard from half to the T14 or half of the top 25. Nevertheless, here is the ranking on what has been reported regarding fulltime employment with bar passage (and SFJ stripped away).

School Name FTBP-no sjf

Penn 91.2%
Cornell 89.8%
Duke 87.7%
Harvard 85.0%
Virginia 84.2%
Ohio State 71.9%
WUSTL 71.4%
Georgia 70.6%
UCLA 69.6%
Florida 69.3%
Yale 68.4%
UNC 68.4%
Fordham 67.8%
Florida State 67.2%
BYU 65.6%
Colorado 65.4%
Indiana 64.4%
Wash & Lee 63.4%
Notre Dame 63.2%
UC - Davis 63.0%
Arizona 62.8%
Illinois 61.2%
USC 61.2%
Tulane 60.4%
William & Mary 60.4%
Emory 60.4%
UC - Irvine 55.4%
George Mason 48.6%

[starry eyed]

Thanks for that.. I think usc is missing unless I'm wrong.

Eta: Nvmd found it at the bottom

[Finalfan]

Still need NYU/Columbia.

[HalfStudent]

Lol at those dissing Harvard. They get anything they want and any location. Not many can claim that.

[chuckbass]

Still need NYU/Columbia.

Slash quite a few others...

[Saddle Up]

Thanks for that..

Actually the credit goes to the poster who set up the data in Google. For me it was just a cut and paste deal after copying it over to Excel. Don’t understand why the tab spacing isn’t recognized on TLS… (but still looks acceptable.)