Why You Should Go To Law School Forum

[algren]

Don't make decisions based on stereotypes/vague impressions of schools. If you are interested in a certain field, then look up professors in it and where they are. Once you get into schools contact them and ask them for your input.

Am I right in thinking it's not cool to contact professors in a field you're interested in *before* you've been accepted to their school? My intuition tells me that it's totally uncool. Just need confirmation.

I think you're okay to do so, particularly if your inquiry is related to whether you'd find interest in the school or not.

I was at one of the LSAC forums a couple weekends ago and actually had two different admissions counselors from different T-30 schools give me the names of professors I should contact with questions about IP law.

[ruleser]

Sort of a side discussion, but LOL @ the person who said that he'd expect to find freethinkers at Berkeley and not at Chicago. As a Berkeley undergrad, I can tell you that your expectations are completely off-base. Pre-professionals are everywhere ranked high, and given that people with academic aspirations seem to self-select into Chicago, you might even find a greater proportion of intellectually curious students there.

Could be, was just my thinking - have nothing but impression to back it up. I guess seeing "Global Cooling" coming from Chicago should indicate they are open to free thinking - but it does seem only if you go far enough to the right you are off in the Atlantic somewhere...

Don't make decisions based on stereotypes/vague impressions of schools. If you are interested in a certain field, then look up professors in it and where they are. Once you get into schools contact them and ask them for your input.

Solid advice.

[j2d3]

Don't make decisions based on stereotypes/vague impressions of schools. If you are interested in a certain field, then look up professors in it and where they are. Once you get into schools contact them and ask them for your input.

Am I right in thinking it's not cool to contact professors in a field you're interested in *before* you've been accepted to their school? My intuition tells me that it's totally uncool. Just need confirmation.

I think you're okay to do so, particularly if your inquiry is related to whether you'd find interest in the school or not.

I was at one of the LSAC forums a couple weekends ago and actually had two different admissions counselors from different T-30 schools give me the names of professors I should contact with questions about IP law.

O cool! A yale law alum (and ex girlfriend - from before i was a homo) told me I should contact profs whose classes I'd like to take / whose research i'm interested in... and I basically totally trust what she says - but i still felt weird about it. Of course I'm not contacting anyone w/r/t admissions - like you I have IP law related questions - specific stuff.

Thanks for your response. I will go ahead and contact the profs I have questions for. I guess if i get no response or assholey responses from anyone, I'll know that I probably don't want to toss $150K at that particular school whether I am accepted or not.

[Always Credited]

How much money have you spent?

haha *** as MTal's eyes go blank with disbelief***

That guy really is a piece of work... nobody can ever end up financially better off or happy as a lawyer... NOBODY!

The odds of you financially succeeding after graduating from law school are heavily, let me repeat, HEAVILY stacked against you. And the farther away you get from HYS the worse it gets. Even the law school administrators and professors are telling their students that they shouldn't be there for the money (see related Hastings thread). How else apart from biglaw do you repay your loans? LRAP? That's only at the top schools. Shitlaw? With starting salaries of 35k in NEW YORK of all places, good luck.

Seriously dude, think about it. Why the fuck do you think our government subsidizes higher education? Do you think it might be because no private lender would be INSANE enough to donate 100k to a prospective applicant of a TTT diploma mill, knowing full well that said applicant would NEVER be able to pay their loans back?

Well, if you go to a TTT at full price in a city like New York then of course your odds of financial success are very bad.

This is not, however, the case everywhere:

Lower cost of living + lower competition (relative to NY/DC/Chi) + lower tuition (scholarship/in-state) = odd of financial success that are fair/good.

[GATORTIM]

Law school sucks, kids.

So does my current job and a majority of career prospects ITE. I choose to pursue a JD in order to better myself and enter a field/profession in which I have always had an interest. If it means 3 years of school for a lifetime of opportunity, then so be it. Maybe law school does suck, but certainly not near as much as the last three years I've spent in this shithole.

[MTal]

Ok, I will respond to this bit by bit.

The job market will be tough regardless of your decision to attend LS or not. Your JD will last a lifetime and the economic downturn, in all likelihood, will not.

True, your JD will last you a lifetime, however, so will your non-dischargeable debt. And you are not a lawyer once you get your JD. In fact, you're not even a lawyer when you pass the bar exam. The only time you become a lawyer is when a CLIENT hands you money to perform a LEGAL SERVICE for them. (1 possible exception is when you volunteer at non-profits)

Those that come to TLS to bash your plan of attending LS would probably be living in their parents basement regardless of their chosen occupation. Trust me, these people did not wake up one morning with the intention to crusade for our collective financial future by signing up for a TLS acct and posting gloomy stats and BS rants. You would be hard-pressed to find ANY career that is easily attainable or where those at the top did not make some type of significant sacrifice to control their destiny.

Is this some kind of thinly veiled swipe in my direction? If you disagree with what I'm saying, at least have the balls to call me out by name, as opposed to hiding out 200 yards away and taking pot shots from the bushes. In fact the truth is exactly the OPPOSITE of what you are saying. The reason I am able to live on my own is because I have a JOB and am WORKING and have minimal debt. On the other hand, if you go to JDunderground (you know, people who have BEEN there, DONE that) you will see REPLETE examples of law school graduates moving back in with their parents because they are not able to afford the crushing burdens of their student loans. They simply can't find jobs! In case you haven't heard, law schools are churning out 45 thousand graduates annually while only 24k legal jobs are out there, and that number is shrinking every day.

If you really want to practice law and have the enthusiasm and motivation to succeed, go for it! However, it is important that you realize that law (like 99% of everything else worth a shit) will be hard work.

Succeeding in law is MUCH harder than succeeding in other professions. The legal field is saturated with TTT lawyers all scrounging for gigs, competition is fierce, salaries are low (it's an employers market). Now compare it to the alternative. I have a friend who went straight out of undergrad to the job I'm working in now. He started around 40k, and 4 years later makes over 70. That's with no 6 figure loans strapped around his neck, so he's pretty much got his life made. It honestly is MUCH easier to get ahead in a field where there is less competition and market saturation.

[Always Credited]

MTaL I do agree with much of what you say, but I think sometimes you take a common mistake in the decision to attend law school (attend a TTT in saturated market at full price, all in loans) and apply it broadly across the board.

Also, I respect JDU for its collective experience, but it has to be clear to you that people post/read JDU for a specific reason, just as people post/read TLS for a specific reason. Oftentimes the two are diametrically opposed - the truth, however, falls somewhere in between the two viewpoints.

[ruleser]

MTaL I do agree with much of what you say, but I think sometimes you take a common mistake in the decision to attend law school (attend a TTT in saturated market at full price, all in loans) and apply it broadly across the board.

Also, I respect JDU for its collective experience, but it has to be clear to you that people post/read JDU for a specific reason, just as people post/read TLS for a specific reason. Oftentimes the two are diametrically opposed - the truth, however, falls somewhere in between the two viewpoints.

Good analysis.

The legal market is saturated with TTT lawyers, one of the reason people on this board are determined not to be TTT lawyers - and as AC says, perhaps consider less saturated markets.

I really do feel for people who go to T2 or TTT, rack up a ton of debt, and are in NYC or another saturated market - I've met people who have that story, and it could easily have been me.

I think there's just a larger picture to look at - a general McJobing of all professions that began in the 80's, when the term McJob began to be used. Schools avoiding hiring tenure track professors, outsourcing, downsizing... people to an extent are hopping profession to profession trying to fix their situation - reality is, we need to fix our situation, as in not just lawyers, but all of our professions - this is why the economy is doing what it is.

Having said that, it doesn't mean no one should aspire to the legal profession or to do it the right way, at a top school. The take-aways from JDU/TLS are: 1) be mindful of debt; 2) be wary of going TTT. Everyone agrees.

[MTal]

Agreed with the two above, however, the question becomes what is a TTT? Some very prominent T1 schools had extremely depressing OCI stats as evidenced from the law employment forum. Even the T14 were struggling, just look at what this poster had to say:

Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am
Posts: 2356
I posted this in a different thread, but here it is again if people didn't see it:

I am a 3L at a T10 school, I'll share my view on the job market: It's bad. It's worse than anyone who is just now starting law school could even imagine. I hope you all read AboveTheLaw.com to get a flavor. But, the reality is you can't really appreciate it until you're living it.

One myth that seems like a common misconception that I think needs to be dispelled is that there is a tier of mid-level jobs between biglaw and $40k/yr. Make no mistake, there is not. The salary distribution for lawyers is bi-modal, see here for a graphical depiction of the class of 2007 starting salaries: http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... p_2007.gif The notion that "I'll get something, even if it isn't big law or $160k/yr, I'll get something that is good enough. I don't need such a big inflated salary" is horribly misguided. The reality is that anything is hard to come by right now, even volunteer or public interest positions.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 23&t=84033

I've never criticized anyone for going to a T14. In fact, I believe when you aggregate the earnings of the students who attend T14-T7 from this year on out, it will stilll be a net loss. However, those kids WILL have prestige, if not a job. For some people, that's enough. Personally I think , go T14, full scholly anywhere else, or partially scholly at a state school. Anything else is nothing short of financial suicide.

[Always Credited]

Agreed with the two above, however, the question becomes what is a TTT? Some very prominent T1 schools had extremely depressing OCI stats as evidenced from the law employment forum. Even the T14 were struggling, just look at what this poster had to say:

Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am
Posts: 2356
I posted this in a different thread, but here it is again if people didn't see it:

I am a 3L at a T10 school, I'll share my view on the job market: It's bad. It's worse than anyone who is just now starting law school could even imagine. I hope you all read AboveTheLaw.com to get a flavor. But, the reality is you can't really appreciate it until you're living it.

One myth that seems like a common misconception that I think needs to be dispelled is that there is a tier of mid-level jobs between biglaw and $40k/yr. Make no mistake, there is not. The salary distribution for lawyers is bi-modal, see here for a graphical depiction of the class of 2007 starting salaries: http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... p_2007.gif The notion that "I'll get something, even if it isn't big law or $160k/yr, I'll get something that is good enough. I don't need such a big inflated salary" is horribly misguided. The reality is that anything is hard to come by right now, even volunteer or public interest positions.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 23&t=84033

I've never criticized anyone for going to a T14. In fact, I believe when you aggregate the earnings of the students who attend T14-T7 from this year on out, it will stilll be a net loss. However, those kids WILL have prestige, if not a job. For some people, that's enough. Personally I think , go T14, full scholly anywhere else, or partially scholly at a state school. Anything else is nothing short of financial suicide.

I take issue with that graph and the student's initial statement of "there is nothing in between $40k/year and biglaw" because of two things: first. the absolutism present in a topic (salary) that is constantly in fluctuation. second, the majority of legal jobs in 2007 were, and still are (although this is changing) located in NYC/DC/Chi. In this cities, the 3L is correct - there is, for the most part, a true bimodel distribution.

This does not, as I alluded to in a previous post, hold true across the board or country. Obviously, 3 cities in which we see a vast disparity in wealth distribution in general will hold true for the legal profession as well. Very few professions are immune to that effect in large, old cities.

Also, I think you are generally correct in your conclusion, but "financial suicide" is a bit hyperbolic. Perhaps T14, full ride, part ride at state would be the "financially safest" route. Although I often pick up on a MUCH higher dosage of truth in your posts than those I find at JDU, I often see the same pessimism which pervades, and really ruins, the forum. Perhaps the pessimism is warranted; perhaps not.

[chicago520]

Ok, I will respond to this bit by bit.

The job market will be tough regardless of your decision to attend LS or not. Your JD will last a lifetime and the economic downturn, in all likelihood, will not.

True, your JD will last you a lifetime, however, so will your non-dischargeable debt. And you are not a lawyer once you get your JD. In fact, you're not even a lawyer when you pass the bar exam. The only time you become a lawyer is when a CLIENT hands you money to perform a LEGAL SERVICE for them. (1 possible exception is when you volunteer at non-profits)

Those that come to TLS to bash your plan of attending LS would probably be living in their parents basement regardless of their chosen occupation. Trust me, these people did not wake up one morning with the intention to crusade for our collective financial future by signing up for a TLS acct and posting gloomy stats and BS rants. You would be hard-pressed to find ANY career that is easily attainable or where those at the top did not make some type of significant sacrifice to control their destiny.

Is this some kind of thinly veiled swipe in my direction? If you disagree with what I'm saying, at least have the balls to call me out by name, as opposed to hiding out 200 yards away and taking pot shots from the bushes. In fact the truth is exactly the OPPOSITE of what you are saying. The reason I am able to live on my own is because I have a JOB and am WORKING and have minimal debt. On the other hand, if you go to JDunderground (you know, people who have BEEN there, DONE that) you will see REPLETE examples of law school graduates moving back in with their parents because they are not able to afford the crushing burdens of their student loans. They simply can't find jobs! In case you haven't heard, law schools are churning out 45 thousand graduates annually while only 24k legal jobs are out there, and that number is shrinking every day.

If you really want to practice law and have the enthusiasm and motivation to succeed, go for it! However, it is important that you realize that law (like 99% of everything else worth a shit) will be hard work.

Succeeding in law is MUCH harder than succeeding in other professions. The legal field is saturated with TTT lawyers all scrounging for gigs, competition is fierce, salaries are low (it's an employers market). Now compare it to the alternative. I have a friend who went straight out of undergrad to the job I'm working in now. He started around 40k, and 4 years later makes over 70. That's with no 6 figure loans strapped around his neck, so he's pretty much got his life made. It honestly is MUCH easier to get ahead in a field where there is less competition and market saturation.

Haha I like how you haunt these threads even as a drop out. That strikes me as a little wacky but,...okay, and now to the substance of your post (in no particular order):


I am in law school now. I have MANY friends who just graduated college a year ago or so, and are making around 30-40K starting. THEY HATE their jobs. Every one of them despises their jobs. They range from IT to business to journalism. They hate the grind, and wish they were doing something else.

I, on the other hand, have the prospect of doing what I want. You have to open your eyes to a larger picture here. You get one shot at this life thing and not doing what you want is quite tragic. EVENTUALLY, the economy will recover. Fully. Law is an ancient profession (think Cicero). It will never go away. Also: Baby boomers are dying like flies now, trickle down effect, etc.

I know A LOT (40+) lawyers. They are young. They are T20-T100. They love it (most the time haha). Almost none of their experiences are anything like JDU. These "people" are self-selecting losers. As you are a self-selecting anti-law advocate. As I am a self-selecting pro-law advocate.

IBR is changing the whole way people view PI and big law. Debt is actually not as bad as it used to be, as of this year...a small town ADA gig in bumble indiana can put 100K of your loans in the grave after 10 years...even though you only paid 30K....get it? Good.

Oh, and the debt is dischargable, need to show undue hardship...very very very hard...but possible.

Law is NOT hard to succeed in. I am doing really well, I don't do much ahahhaha. Most the lawyers I know aren't braniacs either. Sure its competitive...but welcome to planet Earth amigo.

[Always Credited]

JDU is as much self selected pessimism as TLS is self selected over-achievement.

[chicago520]

JDU is as much self selected pessimism as TLS is self selected over-achievement.

sure but you have to admit that the Chicken Little syndrome that has overcome many unemployed lawyers is truly ridiculous. How do you think it will be 5, 10, 15 years from now? It's just so simplistic and myopic. OFCOURSE there will be struggle but, then again:

welcome to plant Earth amigo. If your lucky, you have about 60 to 80 years before worms start to eat at your brain. DO WHATEVER THE FUCK YOU WANT. Seriously.

[Always Credited]

JDU is as much self selected pessimism as TLS is self selected over-achievement.

sure but you have to admit that the Chicken Little syndrome that has overcome many unemployed lawyers is truly ridiculous. How do you think it will be 5, 10, 15 years from now? It's just so simplistic and myopic. OFCOURSE there will be struggle but, then again:

welcome to plant Earth amigo. If your lucky, you have about 60 to 80 years before worms start to eat at your brain. DO WHATEVER THE FUCK YOU WANT. Seriously.

I wasn't aligning myself with JDU by posting that as much as I was slightly agreeing with the previous poster. I think, though, as much as we bash JDU it is equally important to keep in mind the flaws and limitations of our own forum. Look at it like this:

JDU is a good resource for some measure of the truth. TLS is also a good resource for some measure of the truth (not including LSAT related prep, for purposes of this comparison). The users of each forum are at completely opposite ends of the spectrum:

++JDU is generally composed of lawyers who either dislike their job, failed at their job, and/or believe that the vast majority of people (including you) will fail at being a successful lawyer.

++TLS is generally composed of over-achieving undergrads who are aiming for biglaw opportunities, believe they can and will achieve this opportunity, and believe that most people who make the right decisions and make them intelligently can succeed at a career in law.

The only real argument in JDU's favor is that they have "been there and done that". Although irrefutable in and of itself, this doesn't really "prove" much. The classic TLS counter argument is "lol, obviously they didn't do it too well, did they?" which, in general, is absolutely correct. For the vast majority of posters at JDU, something went wrong. Whether by fault of their own or not is really the issue we should focus on, though.

I won't launch into my diatribe here, but I feel that many posters on JDU bring failure upon themselves. Others, and I think this bears repeating, like MTaL, did not. Pay attention to the posters of the second variety only.

[underachiever]

Law school sucks, kids.

+10000000000000000000000000000000

[GATORTIM]

Allow me to retort.....

Ok, I will respond to this bit by bit.

The job market will be tough regardless of your decision to attend LS or not. Your JD will last a lifetime and the economic downturn, in all likelihood, will not.

1. True, your JD will last you a lifetime, however, so will your non-dischargeable debt. And you are not a lawyer once you get your JD. In fact, you're not even a lawyer when you pass the bar exam. The only time you become a lawyer is when a CLIENT hands you money to perform a LEGAL SERVICE for them. (1 possible exception is when you volunteer at non-profits)

Those that come to TLS to bash your plan of attending LS would probably be living in their parents basement regardless of their chosen occupation. Trust me, these people did not wake up one morning with the intention to crusade for our collective financial future by signing up for a TLS acct and posting gloomy stats and BS rants. You would be hard-pressed to find ANY career that is easily attainable or where those at the top did not make some type of significant sacrifice to control their destiny.

2. Is this some kind of thinly veiled swipe in my direction? If you disagree with what I'm saying, at least have the balls to call me out by name, as opposed to hiding out 200 yards away and taking pot shots from the bushes. In fact the truth is exactly the OPPOSITE of what you are saying. The reason I am able to live on my own is because I have a JOB and am WORKING and have minimal debt. On the other hand, if you go to JDunderground (you know, people who have BEEN there, DONE that) you will see REPLETE examples of law school graduates moving back in with their parents because they are not able to afford the crushing burdens of their student loans. They simply can't find jobs! In case you haven't heard, law schools are churning out 45 thousand graduates annually while only 24k legal jobs are out there, and that number is shrinking every day.

If you really want to practice law and have the enthusiasm and motivation to succeed, go for it! However, it is important that you realize that law (like 99% of everything else worth a shit) will be hard work.

Succeeding in law is MUCH harder than succeeding in other professions. The legal field is saturated with TTT lawyers all scrounging for gigs, competition is fierce, salaries are low (it's an employers market). Now compare it to the alternative. I have a friend who went straight out of undergrad to the job I'm working in now. He started around 40k, and 4 years later makes over 70. That's with no 6 figure loans strapped around his neck, so he's pretty much got his life made. It honestly is MUCH easier to get ahead in a field where there is less competition and market saturation.

1. The overwhelming fear of debt on TLS perplexes me. I DO NOT make six-figures, but have managed to climb out of high non-dischargeable debt due to a business dissolution. Debt is a part of life, at least you you have any intention of success. Good luck ever owning anything or climbing to the top without taking on some amount of debt. If you really wish to curb the debt crisis that prevails amoung LS grads, perhaps you would be better served advocating to high-school grads to avoid going to UG b/c they will incur debt; afterall, ITE jobs are very hard to come by and they will have a difficult time finding employment and repaying their loan debt.

2. No, I have no idea who you are and I am sorry if my post conjured up any shortcomings you have with your own situation. Going to JD Underground is tantamount to going to http://www.laidoffAIGexec.com and then posting about the lack of opportunity for corportate executives. That is an awful sample from which to draw generalizations about the legal profession; successful people do not have time to bitch. Your stat regarding LS grads versus opportunity too is a micro view of an ever-shrinking macro-economy. Jobs are difficult to come by in ever sector; however, this does not mean crawl under rock and give up on your aspirations. If true, that stat sucks, but the ambitious TLSer will push themself to be #1 out of those 24k (corny, I know, but extremely true in order to reach the TOP in anything). Gone are the days in which a JD from any LS are the keys to financial success as we are now experiencing a reality in which you, me and all of us must earn our keep.

3. I don't know "your friend', but I do know a guy that was struck by lightening and you won't find me hiding under my bed during a thunderstorm.

The way I see it, ITE, you have two options: rely on whatever company/industry you work in to pull you along and throw you a bone every two weeks and pray that you aren't next when layoffs come or you can develop yourself via education (law school, business school, any school) or experience to ACHIEVE your future, I choose the latter.

[Always Credited]

1. The overwhelming fear of debt on TLS perplexes me. I DO NOT make six-figures, but have managed to climb out of high non-dischargeable debt due to a business dissolution. Debt is a part of life, at least you you have any intention of success. Good luck ever owning anything or climbing to the top without taking on some amount of debt. If you really wish to curb the debt crisis that prevails amoung LS grads, perhaps you would be better served advocating to high-school grads to avoid going to UG b/c they will incur debt; afterall, ITE jobs are very hard to come by and they will have a difficult time finding employment and repaying their loan debt.

This is very true, as long as its debt accrued in an investment that offers decent odds of a return. For the most part, law school is such an investment - especially those frequently discussed on this forum.

[ughOSU]

I like how this thread started, although I would add that the only reason anyone should really go to law school is if (A) they really, truly, deeply want to be a lawyer, or (B) don't know what they want to do and aren't paying for it.

[Borhas]

http://www.laidoffAIGexec.com

I was really hoping that was a real website

[HerseyChris]

I like how this thread started, although I would add that the only reason anyone should really go to law school is if (A) they really, truly, deeply want to be a lawyer, or (B) don't know what they want to do and aren't paying for it.

Good to hear because I know I'm one of the two.

As to the person who said a lot of people really hate their jobs, I would say that this is an underrated point that MTal is not making. Also the fact that every industry is having job losses: business, architecture, engineering, etc. Though I do appreciate your honesty, MTal.

[prezidentv8]

I'm just going to make sure I have this thread marked.

There seems to be a good baseline level of cranky.

[adamlippes]

...

[GATORTIM]

Don't go to law school outside the T10 if you're paying full freight. If you do, you're exposing yourself to a significant risk of living life just above the poverty line. A juris doctor might "mean" something, but that "meaning" is of little practical significance if you cannot maintain your wellbeing.

just a little bit of a stretch don't ya think? I would hope that if the law career doesn't pan out, one would seek another employment option. Why would you not have other options available if your law career doesnt work out? I would argue that someone relegated to a lifetime of financial ruin b/c they took on debt for graduate school has underlying issues far beyond law school debt.

[sufjan]

http://www.laidoffAIGexec.com

I was really hoping that was a real website

hah +1

[MTal]

Don't go to law school outside the T10 if you're paying full freight. If you do, you're exposing yourself to a significant risk of living life just above the poverty line. A juris doctor might "mean" something, but that "meaning" is of little practical significance if you cannot maintain your wellbeing.

just a little bit of a stretch don't ya think? I would hope that if the law career doesn't pan out, one would seek another employment option. Why would you not have other options available if your law career doesnt work out? I would argue that someone relegated to a lifetime of financial ruin b/c they took on debt for graduate school has underlying issues far beyond law school debt.

Dude, you are so clueless it's not even funny. Well whatever. Keep blindly ignoring the advice of everyone who has gone through the process, I'm sure you, as an 0L, know better than they do.