T10 for free or skip law school to teach Forum

[HiLine]

While teaching is a fulfilling career, this is precisely the reason there is an excess of teachers and teachers generally have terrible job security and work environment. I have no clue why school politics are so bad if there is so little money for anyone to gain, but there you go. I think if the OP is confident in his teaching abilities, there will be little harm in going to law school and pursuing a legal career for a few years to really get a feel for it. It is not like he'll be forfeiting his awesome teaching gig by going to a T10 for free. Going to law school will give him options, and when you are young, you want to have options, because who knows what may happen to the job market in the next few years or few decades. If it turns out the OP does not enjoy being a lawyer, he can go back to teaching. Provided that he is good at what he is doing, he should be able to find another rewarding teaching job. If this turns out to not be the case, well, that means the job market for teachers won't be good.

And people change over time. The OP likes teaching now, but will he in 10 years?

[kcdc1]

I went from teaching to law school, though my situation was different because I was miserable teaching at a turnaround school. My advice is to go to law school. If you're truly content on a teacher salary (which is tight if you have kids and you do not have a SO earning more), I think chances are good you'll be able to find something enjoyable to do with your law degree. Financial concerns often push lawyers into jobs they hate, but you have a full ride, so that won't be you unless you choose it. Also, most of the accounts of misery you find on TLS are from the perspective of 1st-4th year biglaw associates, and there probably is a skew toward the more miserable associates taking time out of their day to post on TLS. I don't want to discount what surely is real unhappiness, but in a 30+ year career that could go any number of directions, there is a danger of looking only at a small slice of what your career might resemble.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Catsinthebag is onto your scheme, rpupkin.

[goodoldmacintosh]

I think there is a lot of truth in this thread - would specifically +1 regarding the rarity of finding a job that you enjoy with long-term viability, the general unpleasantness of biglaw and the prudence of shadowing an attorney (in a sub-field that you are interested in pursuing) before committing. It seems as though money is a significant determining factor for you, but in your proposed legal path, what you gain in income you give up in quality of life. This is true certainly for biglaw, and in many cases for in-house positions (although purportedly there are exceptions). So, even if you would like to go in-house, securing a relatively high paying position with reasonable hours is not guaranteed (at which point you will have spent 3 yrs law school + 2-5 yrs biglaw to discover this). Also, to respond to your comment regarding ability to handle stress and work on little sleep: it is different from self-imposed long hours/little sleep and/or stress (or working toward/for something you find inherently interesting). As a biglaw associate (and many in-house positions), you give your all to the firm/company - there is hardly time to sleep, much less relax, and if you receive a call out of nowhere on a Friday night at 10 p.m. asking you to jump, the expected response is "how high?" Few people (if any) find inherent fulfillment in these rolls and the social function you serve as a lawyer in these positions is dubious.

I have taught at the university level and at high school/junior high and enjoyed each to a similar degree (and perhaps you will as well). One option is to become an undergrad/law school professor. This could be by way of a Phd or just a law degree (at many upper tiered schools, the university will pay for the Phd). One limitation on this path is that these positions can be very difficult to obtain. Also, provided you are vying for tenure, these positions involve research/publishing unlike the sub-university level. While you can be a lecturer fairly easily, this is unlikely to satisfy your desire for a high income. If your desire to attain a law degree is driven partly by serving a larger social good, public interest and government work could satisfy this, although as mentioned, these can be difficult to obtain and may not pay very much. However, having a law degree and working in these fields could give you some optionality and allow you to exit these lower-paying positions if you so decided (which is an expanding income option not as readily available without a law degree).

[pancakes3]

Defer admission and try the turnaround school for a year is the right play. Maybe even look for a job teaching in the Eastern mid-atlantic so you can be close to your friends? Either way, if you teach for another year, you'll get to enjoy your summer vaca this year and next.

[180kickflip]

Thank you all again for the responses. While I am not responding to each of you directly, I am really considering everything you say.

***please don't quote***

I just want to add a little info to clarify a few points.

1. I am not young (at least by TLS or my student's standards lol).Options are definitely still important to me, but I don't really have time to be backtracking on whatever decision I make right now. I'm hoping that the career path I choose will become my life's work.

2. While job security for teachers at my experience level is definitely terrible (as shown by my current situation), I am only 3 years away from tenure, and at that time, it would become extremely difficult to fire or demote me.

3. In terms of salary, my district pays above the national average (though way below biglaw). I don't know the details of our next contract, but under the current salary structure, my salary would be around 65, 75, 80 during the three years I was in law school, and I would reach a maximum slightly above 100k maybe four years after that.

4. In terms of my law goals..Going biglaw>>>Government could interest me, but it seems very difficult to get (risky to shoot for) the positions that have great pay+ hours. Most run of the mill government positions seem to offer similar earnings/benefits to what teaching in my district offers...while requiring me to be out of work for 3 years to get there.

So...Biglaw>>>in house (the path my mentor followed and is now very happy with) would almost definitely be my law goal.

Looking for a teaching job closer to my friends in NY makes a lot of sense, but 1.- I don't have the certifications or network to be a competitive candidate there this year, and 2.- Changing districts would be a big pay cut for a number of reasons

The suggestions to pursue the turnaround school teaching gig and seek a deferral make a lot of sense to me. I can't say that I'm confident in my chances of getting my scholarship deferred, but I will try.

I guess until I interview for the turnaround school and have that offer in hand, all of this is essentially like making a chances thread without a real LSAT score lol. Still, I appreciate all of your suggestions/insight. I wouldn't even have these options without this site.

[kcdc1]

Most federal gov't jobs will pay about the same -- generally ~60k entry level, quickly move up to ~110k, then slowly move toward ~150k. If you come in after a few years of biglaw, you'll start higher than 60k, perhaps closer to the ~110k level (depends on what GS level you're hired at). The prestigious federal gov't jobs are hard to come by, but I wouldn't say landing a decent paying fed job with decent hours is unrealistic. It might take a year of applying, but if you have decent credentials, you'll find something eventually. Going in-house or moving to a boutique or mid-size firm are other decent options that pay meaningfully more than teaching.

[pancakes3]

given the new facts that Op is in his/her mid-30s, in a cool city (I was thinking small town flyover for whatever reason), and only 3 years away from tenure at a near-6-figure salary, I think OP should just stay put.

Grinding it out 3 years as a non-trad then grinding it out 3-5 more years in BL before settling into in-house or bigfed won't be worth it.

[Goldchain]

If you can get tenure track at near 6 figures I would stay a teacher. Personally if I thought I could make 6 figures as a teacher with tenure I would consider saying to hell with law school....

[hookem7]

As someone with a few teachers/principals in the family, I think you should take a year and see how it goes at a new school (assuming your LSAT is still good for next year).

It sounds like you lucked out into a teaching gig at a "nice" school to start, which is hard to do. When you go to a different, "less nice" school your experience is undoubtedly going to change. You will probably be dealing with kids who have very little in the way of parental support, stability, expectations, etc. From there, I would guess you will come to one of two realizations: 1) "I really enjoy getting to help kids who really need it. I'm making a positive difference in these kids' lives!" Or 2) "None of my students care about school, they aren't invested in learning and their parents don't even care that they are failing." Then you will have your answer.

Also, keep in mind that if you decide to keep teaching, you can always try to move into administration down the road (although that will take at least a masters, if not a PhD). Best of luck OP, just my two cents.

[rpupkin]

Lol, please just start being honest and admit you're single-handedly trying to protect your job security by convincing people not to go to law school.

I am flattered that you think I'm so powerful that I can "single-handedly" protect my job security through my posts on TLS.

For what it's worth, I think I'm actually less risk averse than the TLS hive. I'll tell people to go to law school, or to pay somewhat more for a better law school, when others are screaming "retake!" or "don't go!" Each person's case is different.

Your statement above amounts to "All jobs are vulnerable and/or have petty bosses; therefore, don't go to law school."

Massive logic fail. But that's par for the course with you.

[landshoes]

OP has found a profession he/she enjoys, is good at, and leaves for considerable free time outside of work. I'd guess 90% of folks never find this in life, in any profession. As for the percentage of law school graduates who can say those things about their jobs, I'd say that at least 95% cannot say what the OP says about teaching.

do you know any teachers? Their job security is shit (which you can see by OP getting cut) and people with less experience are the first to go. Decent jobs are scarce, the bosses are often petty and incompetent, and the pensions are not going to be there in 10 years.

If you'e at a good school it can be awesome but that is NOT what OP can expect for the duration of their career. Teaching is actually quite a big risk if you don't have tenure in a solid district (meaning $$$$)

Yes, thanks, I know teachers. And, based on what I know, what you write is basically true. The OP knows all this, I think.

Do you think big law lawyers and in-house lawyers have good job security? Or don't work for petty bosses?

the issue is that people keep saying that the OP has a "job" that they like

they don't

they have had a job in this field, that they did like. there is a massive, massive difference between the two.

[rpupkin]

the issue is that people keep saying that the OP has a "job" that they like

they don't

they have had a job in this field, that they did like. there is a massive, massive difference between the two.

Folks are acknowledging that reality. That's why I wrote this:

I understand that your current teaching situation is ending. I get that there's a risk that you won't find another teaching job that you'll enjoy as much. But keep this in mind: at least you know you like teaching. And you know the things you value in a teaching environment. You do not know those things about law.

[180kickflip]

OP has found a profession he/she enjoys, is good at, and leaves for considerable free time outside of work. I'd guess 90% of folks never find this in life, in any profession. As for the percentage of law school graduates who can say those things about their jobs, I'd say that at least 95% cannot say what the OP says about teaching.

do you know any teachers? Their job security is shit (which you can see by OP getting cut) and people with less experience are the first to go. Decent jobs are scarce, the bosses are often petty and incompetent, and the pensions are not going to be there in 10 years.

If you'e at a good school it can be awesome but that is NOT what OP can expect for the duration of their career. Teaching is actually quite a big risk if you don't have tenure in a solid district (meaning $$$$)

Yes, thanks, I know teachers. And, based on what I know, what you write is basically true. The OP knows all this, I think.

Do you think big law lawyers and in-house lawyers have good job security? Or don't work for petty bosses?

the issue is that people keep saying that the OP has a "job" that they like

they don't

they have had a job in this field, that they did like. there is a massive, massive difference between the two.

When I read this, I was torn between laughing and shedding a tear at the harsh reality of it lol

[landshoes]

ha ha yeah, sorry about that. the friends I have who are teachers are always dealing with crazy job issues. it's too bad, obviously good teachers are important.

good luck with whatever you decide.

[magicmagic]

My significant other and I just spent a year working in a "rough" school district and it was the most depressing experience of our lives. Some people can handle it better than others, and some districts are better than others, but teaching can be a soul-crushing existence. Especially when 95% of your time is spent dealing with behavioral problems (not actually teaching) and receiving zero support from an already overwhelmed administration. I've seen teachers get knocked out while trying to break up fights. I've heard middle schoolers threaten to sexually assault teachers they don't like. It is not a good environment. But I digress.

There is literally no downside to law school for you. You will have a T10 degree with minimal debt, infinitely more options in life, and the ability to go back and teach at any point (and at any level) if you decide to. The teaching market is currently terrible in most places; I know so many teachers who are trapped in bad districts/have been job hunting for years.

Please, please go to law school.

[BigZuck]

My significant other and I just spent a year working in a "rough" school district and it was the most depressing experience of our lives. Some people can handle it better than others, and some districts are better than others, but teaching can be a soul-crushing existence. Especially when 95% of your time is spent dealing with behavioral problems (not actually teaching) and receiving zero support from an already overwhelmed administration. I've seen teachers get knocked out while trying to break up fights. I've heard middle schoolers threaten to sexually assault teachers they don't like. It is not a good environment. But I digress.

There is literally no downside to law school for you. You will have a T10 degree with minimal debt, infinitely more options in life, and the ability to go back and teach at any point (and at any level) if you decide to. The teaching market is currently terrible in most places; I know so many teachers who are trapped in bad districts/have been job hunting for years.

Please, please go to law school.

The potential of 60K debt and 3 wasted years (or more if the OP feels trapped into being a lawyer) are a pretty substantial downside IMO

Taking the job and deferring for a year sounds like a no brainer to me

[rpupkin]

There is literally no downside to law school for you.

You don't know what "literally" means. And I'm pretty sure you don't know what "downside" means either.

[magicmagic]

There is literally no downside to law school for you.

You don't know what "literally" means. And I'm pretty sure you don't know what "downside" means either.

So abrasive.

*I cannot see any significant disadvantages to getting a T10 JD for 0-60k. Worst case scenario, OP works Big Law for a year, pays back his debt, and can do whatever he wants with his life (including teach, potentially at the collegiate level). Conversely, there are many disadvantages to being a teacher (even a tenured teacher) in a rough district and forever wondering what might have been.

[pancakes3]

so what's objectionable about deferring a year?

[rpupkin]

There is literally no downside to law school for you.

You don't know what "literally" means. And I'm pretty sure you don't know what "downside" means either.

So abrasive.

*I cannot see any significant disadvantages to getting a T10 JD for 0-60k. Worst case scenario, OP works Big Law for a year, pays back his debt, and can do whatever he wants with his life (including teach, potentially at the collegiate level). Conversely, there are many disadvantages to being a teacher (even a tenured teacher) in a rough district and forever wondering what might have been.

Sorry for the abrasiveness, but I'm confident you'll get over it. Given what's at stake for the OP, I think your broadly categorical statements are more damaging than my abrasiveness.

In any event, I do not agree that a five-year career detour in one's late 30s is downside free.

[magicmagic]

so what's objectionable about deferring a year?

If OP gets to keep their scholarship, then nothing. Except possibly a hellish year at the new school.

[180kickflip]

There is literally no downside to law school for you.

You don't know what "literally" means. And I'm pretty sure you don't know what "downside" means either.

So abrasive.

*I cannot see any significant disadvantages to getting a T10 JD for 0-60k. Worst case scenario, OP works Big Law for a year, pays back his debt, and can do whatever he wants with his life (including teach, potentially at the collegiate level). Conversely, there are many disadvantages to being a teacher (even a tenured teacher) in a rough district and forever wondering what might have been.

***please don't quote***

I totally agree with you about the potential options I could gain through law school, but, at the same time, I think the opportunity cost of 3 years lost salary (about 200k) has to be added to that 0-60k for it to be an accurate estimate of the financial impact of law school.

Basically, on graduation day, I can either have a Berkeley JD and 60k debt, or I can have no JD and 200k (minus taxes, etc.) sitting in the bank. If all it would take is 1 year of biglaw to cancel out the financial impact, my bags would be packed for SF. Unfortunately, it seems like it'll take me at least 3 years of biglaw to start seeing a financial gain, and taking that gamble now to hopefully start seeing the payoff 6 years down the road feels like a tough bet.

Deferring definitely seems like the best option. I still have a few things I need to line up first, but I think that's what I'm going to try to do. There really would be no downside at that point. If I can make it work in the new school, that'll tell me all I need to know to confidently stay teaching, and if I can't, I'll be able to give 100% to law again

[rpupkin]

Deferring definitely seems like the best option. I still have a few things I need to line up first, but I think that's what I'm going to try to do. There really would be no downside at that point. If I can make it work in the new school, that'll tell me all I need to know to confidently stay teaching, and if I can't, I'll be able to give 100% to law again

That sounds like a good plan, 180kickflip. Best of luck in your upcoming year at your new school. And, if that doesn't work out, best of luck in law school! I bet you'll do well in either career.

[landshoes]

Sounds like a good choice, except for one thing: I don't think that you are calculating the lost income well. You won't have 200k, you'll have 3 years of salary minus living expenses. Your debt estimate takes cost of living into account, so should your earnings estimate. Assuming 60k for both the difference is more like 140k, before taxes. You then have 25k or so of summer earnings.

There is a pretty good case that you're at more like $115k of a difference after three years, even if you do keep your job (first in, last out is a bitch but then again so is the legal industry.)

I still think that would take you about three years in biglaw to pay off, so this might not matter much to you.