What are your T14 school tiers? Forum

[BirdLawExpert]

NVM, did it really quickly.

Big Law + Fed Clerk Numbers for T-14 (added from LST reports)

Columbia University 79%
University of Pennsylvania 78%
University of Chicago 76%
Stanford University 75%
Cornell University 74%
New York University 71%
Harvard University 71%
Duke University 70%
University of Virginia 68%
Northwestern University 65%
University of California - Berkeley 62%
Yale University 61%
University of Michigan 54%
Georgetown University 48%

Based on these percentages and the enrollment numbers, these are the approximate numbers of Big Law + Fed Clerk jobs actually created by these schools:

Columbia University 924
University of Pennsylvania 589
University of Chicago 459
Stanford University 432
Cornell University 440
New York University 1010
Harvard University 1243
Duke University 450
University of Virginia 683
Northwestern University 479
University of Berkeley 551
Yale University 370
University of Michigan 540
Georgetown University 825

I have based my own T14 tiers on these figures.

Harvard
NYU/Columbia/Georgetown
Virginia/Penn/Berkeley/Michigan
Chicago/Stanford/Cornell/Duke/Northwestern
Yale

[Nagster5]

NVM, did it really quickly.

Big Law + Fed Clerk Numbers for T-14 (added from LST reports)

Columbia University 79%
University of Pennsylvania 78%
University of Chicago 76%
Stanford University 75%
Cornell University 74%
New York University 71%
Harvard University 71%
Duke University 70%
University of Virginia 68%
Northwestern University 65%
University of California - Berkeley 62%
Yale University 61%
University of Michigan 54%
Georgetown University 48%

Based on these percentages and the enrollment numbers, these are the approximate numbers of Big Law + Fed Clerk jobs actually created by these schools:

Columbia University 924
University of Pennsylvania 589
University of Chicago 459
Stanford University 432
Cornell University 440
New York University 1010
Harvard University 1243
Duke University 450
University of Virginia 683
Northwestern University 479
University of Berkeley 551
Yale University 370
University of Michigan 540
Georgetown University 825

I have based my own T14 tiers on these figures.

Harvard
NYU/Columbia/Georgetown
Virginia/Penn/Berkeley/Michigan
Chicago/Stanford/Cornell/Duke/Northwestern
Yale

I think doing it by class instead of by the entire school size would be a more useful metric.

[yenisey]

LOL at Penn's "Fed Clerkship" hiring rate. After the prestigious judges hire the students from the best Ivies (Harvard, Yale), and after the solid but unspectacular judges hire from the mid-tier Ivy (Columbia), the dregs of the federal judiciary—lower-tier district court judges, senile Third Circuit judges, and mid-Atlantic magistrates—pick up the scraps (i.e., Penn students). And don't even get me started on the types of law firms that most Penn students end up at.

If you were at an elite level, you would appreciate that it's quality—not just quantity—that matters. But since you're defending Penn for some reason, I wouldn't expect you to appreciate that.

Do people really care about the Ivy League so much?

Yes. Look, you can't start a "T14 school tiers" thread, as you've done here, without focusing on the tiers within the Ivy League.

You also have to appreciate that the "Ivy League" is in some sense a state of mind. For example, Duke is often referred to as "the Ivy of the South." Similarly, Stanford is the "Ivy of the West." And I suppose you could say that Penn is the "Ivy of the Delaware Valley." Of course, Penn is also an actual Ivy, which complicates things. Whereas Duke and Stanford are on top—they're basically the YLS of their regional "Ivy" kingdoms—Penn is inevitably compared to the other real Ivy League schools, and those comparisons are usually unflattering to Penn. Fairly or not, Penn's reputation suffers, and its T14 sub-tier rank falls along with it.

Don't get me wrong: Penn is a fine law school at which any committed student can obtain a solid legal education. But if we're talking honestly about T14 school tiers, Penn (and its sibling Cornell) are at the bottom.

You mean among the five real Ivies?

[BirdLawExpert]

NVM, did it really quickly.

Big Law + Fed Clerk Numbers for T-14 (added from LST reports)

Columbia University 79%
University of Pennsylvania 78%
University of Chicago 76%
Stanford University 75%
Cornell University 74%
New York University 71%
Harvard University 71%
Duke University 70%
University of Virginia 68%
Northwestern University 65%
University of California - Berkeley 62%
Yale University 61%
University of Michigan 54%
Georgetown University 48%

Based on these percentages and the enrollment numbers, these are the approximate numbers of Big Law + Fed Clerk jobs actually created by these schools:

Columbia University 924
University of Pennsylvania 589
University of Chicago 459
Stanford University 432
Cornell University 440
New York University 1010
Harvard University 1243
Duke University 450
University of Virginia 683
Northwestern University 479
University of Berkeley 551
Yale University 370
University of Michigan 540
Georgetown University 825

I have based my own T14 tiers on these figures.

Harvard
NYU/Columbia/Georgetown
Virginia/Penn/Berkeley/Michigan
Chicago/Stanford/Cornell/Duke/Northwestern
Yale

I think doing it by class instead of by the entire school size would be a more useful metric.

Fair point, guess I'm going to have to do some more math

[grades??]

NVM, did it really quickly.

Big Law + Fed Clerk Numbers for T-14 (added from LST reports)

Columbia University 79%
University of Pennsylvania 78%
University of Chicago 76%
Stanford University 75%
Cornell University 74%
New York University 71%
Harvard University 71%
Duke University 70%
University of Virginia 68%
Northwestern University 65%
University of California - Berkeley 62%
Yale University 61%
University of Michigan 54%
Georgetown University 48%

Based on these percentages and the enrollment numbers, these are the approximate numbers of Big Law + Fed Clerk jobs actually created by these schools:

Columbia University 924
University of Pennsylvania 589
University of Chicago 459
Stanford University 432
Cornell University 440
New York University 1010
Harvard University 1243
Duke University 450
University of Virginia 683
Northwestern University 479
University of Berkeley 551
Yale University 370
University of Michigan 540
Georgetown University 825

I have based my own T14 tiers on these figures.

Harvard
NYU/Columbia/Georgetown
Virginia/Penn/Berkeley/Michigan
Chicago/Stanford/Cornell/Duke/Northwestern
Yale

I think doing it by class instead of by the entire school size would be a more useful metric.

Fair point, guess I'm going to have to do some more math

yeah notice how in your tiers at the bottom are the three smallest law schools in class size: Yale, Chicago and Duke. So a percentage based on class size to biglaw is a much better metric than just the overall number. For example, that Georgetown number of 825 people is more than the full 3 classes of Yale, Chicago or Duke enrolled at each.

[BirdLawExpert]

NVM, did it really quickly.

Big Law + Fed Clerk Numbers for T-14 (added from LST reports)

Columbia University 79%
University of Pennsylvania 78%
University of Chicago 76%
Stanford University 75%
Cornell University 74%
New York University 71%
Harvard University 71%
Duke University 70%
University of Virginia 68%
Northwestern University 65%
University of California - Berkeley 62%
Yale University 61%
University of Michigan 54%
Georgetown University 48%

Based on these percentages and the enrollment numbers, these are the approximate numbers of Big Law + Fed Clerk jobs actually created by these schools:

Columbia University 924
University of Pennsylvania 589
University of Chicago 459
Stanford University 432
Cornell University 440
New York University 1010
Harvard University 1243
Duke University 450
University of Virginia 683
Northwestern University 479
University of Berkeley 551
Yale University 370
University of Michigan 540
Georgetown University 825

I have based my own T14 tiers on these figures.

Harvard
NYU/Columbia/Georgetown
Virginia/Penn/Berkeley/Michigan
Chicago/Stanford/Cornell/Duke/Northwestern
Yale

I think doing it by class instead of by the entire school size would be a more useful metric.

Fair point, guess I'm going to have to do some more math

yeah notice how in your tiers at the bottom are the three smallest law schools in class size: Yale, Chicago and Duke. So a percentage based on class size to biglaw is a much better metric than just the overall number. For example, that Georgetown number of 825 people is more than the full 3 classes of Yale, Chicago or Duke enrolled at each.

[baal hadad]

LOL that's amazing people took him for face

I dislike trolling in serious TLS threads. TLS is (or can be) an amazing source of information for 0Ls. The veteran users who troll because they're bored and no longer need advice should recall how they once turned to TLS for help.

These types of threads are really dumb

[BirdLawExpert]

NVM, did it really quickly.

Big Law + Fed Clerk Numbers for T-14 (added from LST reports)

Columbia University 79%
University of Pennsylvania 78%
University of Chicago 76%
Stanford University 75%
Cornell University 74%
New York University 71%
Harvard University 71%
Duke University 70%
University of Virginia 68%
Northwestern University 65%
University of California - Berkeley 62%
Yale University 61%
University of Michigan 54%
Georgetown University 48%

Based on these percentages and the enrollment numbers, these are the approximate numbers of Big Law + Fed Clerk jobs actually created by these schools:

I have based my own T14 tiers on these figures.

Harvard
NYU/Columbia/Georgetown
Virginia/Penn/Berkeley/Michigan
Chicago/Stanford/Cornell/Duke/Northwestern
Yale

I think doing it by class instead of by the entire school size would be a more useful metric.

Alright, take two. T-14 tiers based on the raw number of Big Law + Fed Clerk jobs each school attains per year. More jobs=more opportunities=more influence and alumni connections=more $$$.

Tier 1
Harvard 397
NYU 320
Columbia 314

Tier 2
Virginia 250
Georgetown 222
Michigan 200
Penn 199

Tier 3
Berkeley 181
Northwestern 176
Duke 160
Cornell 152

Tier 4
Chicago 145
Yale 131
Stanford 128

[LA Spring]

I had always assumed the prestige factor broke down as such:

Harvard ― Yale
Stanford ― Columbia ― Penn
Chicago ― NYU
Georgetown ― Duke ― Cornell ― Berkeley

[urbanist11]

I had always assumed the prestige factor broke down as such:

Harvard ― Yale
Stanford ― Columbia ― Penn
Chicago ― NYU
Georgetown ― Duke ― Cornell ― Berkeley

Egregious anti Michigan trolling lol

Eta And uva

[grades??]

NVM, did it really quickly.

Big Law + Fed Clerk Numbers for T-14 (added from LST reports)

Columbia University 79%
University of Pennsylvania 78%
University of Chicago 76%
Stanford University 75%
Cornell University 74%
New York University 71%
Harvard University 71%
Duke University 70%
University of Virginia 68%
Northwestern University 65%
University of California - Berkeley 62%
Yale University 61%
University of Michigan 54%
Georgetown University 48%

Based on these percentages and the enrollment numbers, these are the approximate numbers of Big Law + Fed Clerk jobs actually created by these schools:

I have based my own T14 tiers on these figures.

Harvard
NYU/Columbia/Georgetown
Virginia/Penn/Berkeley/Michigan
Chicago/Stanford/Cornell/Duke/Northwestern
Yale

I think doing it by class instead of by the entire school size would be a more useful metric.

Alright, take two. T-14 tiers based on the raw number of Big Law + Fed Clerk jobs each school attains per year. More jobs=more opportunities=more influence and alumni connections=more $$$.

Tier 1
Harvard 397
NYU 320
Columbia 314

Tier 2
Virginia 250
Georgetown 222
Michigan 200
Penn 199

Tier 3
Berkeley 181
Northwestern 176
Duke 160
Cornell 152

Tier 4
Chicago 145
Yale 131
Stanford 128

Now divide this by the class size to get a percentage that would be a better metric. For example, if Yale has 131/200 students (65.5%), that percentage is much higher than georgetown having 222/534 (41.57%). So why would Yale be significantly below Georgetown if it has a much higher percentage of its class population going into these jobs??

[LA Spring]

I had always assumed the prestige factor broke down as such:

Harvard ― Yale
Stanford ― Columbia ― Penn
Chicago ― NYU
Georgetown ― Duke ― Cornell ― Berkeley

Egregious anti Michigan trolling lol

Eta And uva

Problem with Michigan is that it’s located in Michigan! No feel on Northwestern ― none. UVA with it’s in-school temp job program that games the employment stats is a real turnoff.

[BirdLawExpert]

NVM, did it really quickly.

Big Law + Fed Clerk Numbers for T-14 (added from LST reports)

Columbia University 79%
University of Pennsylvania 78%
University of Chicago 76%
Stanford University 75%
Cornell University 74%
New York University 71%
Harvard University 71%
Duke University 70%
University of Virginia 68%
Northwestern University 65%
University of California - Berkeley 62%
Yale University 61%
University of Michigan 54%
Georgetown University 48%

Based on these percentages and the enrollment numbers, these are the approximate numbers of Big Law + Fed Clerk jobs actually created by these schools:

I have based my own T14 tiers on these figures.

Harvard
NYU/Columbia/Georgetown
Virginia/Penn/Berkeley/Michigan
Chicago/Stanford/Cornell/Duke/Northwestern
Yale

I think doing it by class instead of by the entire school size would be a more useful metric.

Alright, take two. T-14 tiers based on the raw number of Big Law + Fed Clerk jobs each school attains per year. More jobs=more opportunities=more influence and alumni connections=more $$$.

Tier 1
Harvard 397
NYU 320
Columbia 314

Tier 2
Virginia 250
Georgetown 222
Michigan 200
Penn 199

Tier 3
Berkeley 181
Northwestern 176
Duke 160
Cornell 152

Tier 4
Chicago 145
Yale 131
Stanford 128

Now divide this by the class size to get a percentage that would be a better metric. For example, if Yale has 131/200 students (65.5%), that percentage is much higher than georgetown having 222/534 (41.57%). So why would Yale be significantly below Georgetown if it has a much higher percentage of its class population going into these jobs??

Because Georgetown has produced a significantly larger number of lawyers who are qualified and hired for these positions, meaning that you have a significantly higher number of potential connections in the legal industry. There are nearly 2 lawyers from Georgetown for every 1 lawyer from Yale in these positions. Percentage might be important for applicants or people concerned with finishing law school in the bottom 25% of the class, but once you're in the job market it's about who you know, and if you're a Georgetown alum you're nearly twice as likely to have a contact at any given firm as a Yale alum; why wouldn't Yale be significantly lower? Bottom line, Big Law + Fed Clerk selects more Georgetown grads than all but four of the rest of the T-14 schools.

[nerd1]

Y
HS
CCN
the rest of T14 (but since I separated Y from HS, I could say PVB>the rest)

[pterodactyls]

Because Georgetown has produced a significantly larger number of lawyers who are qualified and hired for these positions, meaning that you have a significantly higher number of potential connections in the legal industry. There are nearly 2 lawyers from Georgetown for every 1 lawyer from Yale in these positions. Percentage might be important for applicants or people concerned with finishing law school in the bottom 25% of the class, but once you're in the job market it's about who you know, and if you're a Georgetown alum you're nearly twice as likely to have a contact at any given firm as a Yale alum; why wouldn't Yale be significantly lower? Bottom line, Big Law + Fed Clerk selects more Georgetown grads than all but four of the rest of the T-14 schools.

Yes but this also means there's more competition for those positions.

With Stanford, 128/180 means you're very likely to get one of these positions if you attend Stanford (71% chance). With Georgetown, 222/576 means you have a much lower chance (39% chance).

If they're hiring 71% of Stanford grads and 39% of Georgetown grads, I'd much rather be at Stanford.

[BirdLawExpert]

Because Georgetown has produced a significantly larger number of lawyers who are qualified and hired for these positions, meaning that you have a significantly higher number of potential connections in the legal industry. There are nearly 2 lawyers from Georgetown for every 1 lawyer from Yale in these positions. Percentage might be important for applicants or people concerned with finishing law school in the bottom 25% of the class, but once you're in the job market it's about who you know, and if you're a Georgetown alum you're nearly twice as likely to have a contact at any given firm as a Yale alum; why wouldn't Yale be significantly lower? Bottom line, Big Law + Fed Clerk selects more Georgetown grads than all but four of the rest of the T-14 schools.

Yes but this also means there's more competition for those positions.

With Stanford, 128/180 means you're very likely to get one of these positions if you attend Stanford (71% chance). With Georgetown, 222/576 means you have a much lower chance (39% chance).

If they're hiring 71% of Stanford grads and 39% of Georgetown grads, I'd much rather be at Stanford.

Okay, but what about ten years after law school if you're interested in changing your career path? What if you have to move somewhere where your firm doesn't have an office? Would you rather be part of a "select" group of lawyers, or would you rather have a significantly larger number of connections? The idea that percentage is a be-all, end-all is incredibly short sighted in an economy where even lawyers and doctors are not incredibly likely to work in the same place their whole life. Yes, it's a gamble since you're less likely to come out of those schools with such a position, but remember that a large number of Georgetown grads are not aiming to go Big Law or Fed Clerk, as evidenced by the fact that 151 GULC grads from last year went to work for the government or in PI.

To put it in terms where I'm from, Rice University is a phenomenal school and almost certainly puts a higher percentage of it's students into high-paying positions than the big state schools like Texas A&M. Texas A&M, however, has an incredibly loyal alumni base and the so-called "Aggie Network" is one of the school's greatest selling points. Discounting or discrediting the sheer number of alumni in these positions is not logical, because once you've established yourself as a competent lawyer those alumni will be significantly more helpful in a pinch than having a diploma from a higher ranked school.

[pterodactyls]

Because Georgetown has produced a significantly larger number of lawyers who are qualified and hired for these positions, meaning that you have a significantly higher number of potential connections in the legal industry. There are nearly 2 lawyers from Georgetown for every 1 lawyer from Yale in these positions. Percentage might be important for applicants or people concerned with finishing law school in the bottom 25% of the class, but once you're in the job market it's about who you know, and if you're a Georgetown alum you're nearly twice as likely to have a contact at any given firm as a Yale alum; why wouldn't Yale be significantly lower? Bottom line, Big Law + Fed Clerk selects more Georgetown grads than all but four of the rest of the T-14 schools.

Yes but this also means there's more competition for those positions.

With Stanford, 128/180 means you're very likely to get one of these positions if you attend Stanford (71% chance). With Georgetown, 222/576 means you have a much lower chance (39% chance).

If they're hiring 71% of Stanford grads and 39% of Georgetown grads, I'd much rather be at Stanford.

Okay, but what about ten years after law school if you're interested in changing your career path? What if you have to move somewhere where your firm doesn't have an office? Would you rather be part of a "select" group of lawyers, or would you rather have a significantly larger number of connections? The idea that percentage is a be-all, end-all is incredibly short sighted in an economy where even lawyers and doctors are not incredibly likely to work in the same place their whole life. Yes, it's a gamble since you're less likely to come out of those schools with such a position, but remember that a large number of Georgetown grads are not aiming to go Big Law or Fed Clerk, as evidenced by the fact that 151 GULC grads from last year went to work for the government or in PI.

To put it in terms where I'm from, Rice University is a phenomenal school and almost certainly puts a higher percentage of it's students into high-paying positions than the big state schools like Texas A&M. Texas A&M, however, has an incredibly loyal alumni base and the so-called "Aggie Network" is one of the school's greatest selling points. Discounting or discrediting the sheer number of alumni in these positions is not logical, because once you've established yourself as a competent lawyer those alumni will be significantly more helpful in a pinch than having a diploma from a higher ranked school.

I'm not discrediting GULC's network, I'm just saying there are pros and cons of going to a large school vs. going to a small school. Every T14 is going to have a great alumni network. But each network will have different strengths due to size, prestige, and focus areas (PI vs. big law, etc.).

I'm just saying, you have to take class size into account when comparing outcomes. Yeah, Harvard Law has more alumni in Congress than Stanford Law, but Harvard graduates 3x more lawyers each year. If you make comparisons based on raw numbers, you're not getting the full picture.

[GreenEggs]

This is the dumbest thread.

We all know it's T13 and then just regionals.

[rpupkin]

Seeing as how some of you remain skeptical about my point that Penn belongs in the bottom sub-tier of the T14, I thought I'd share this tidbit from a GQ article about Ted Cruz:

The elite academic circles that Cruz was now traveling in began to rub off. As a law student at Harvard, he refused to study with anyone who hadn’t been an undergrad at Harvard, Princeton, or Yale. Says Damon Watson, one of Cruz’s law-school roommates: "He said he didn’t want anybody from ’minor Ivies’ like Penn

Elite law school graduate (and likely future president) Ted Cruz understands that Penn is TTT. I'm not sure why so many of you can't wrap your head around that fact.

http://www.gq.com/story/ted-cruz-republ ... age=5#note

[EnderWiggin]

Elite law school graduate (and likely future president) Ted Cruz understands that Penn is TTT. I'm not sure why so many of you can't wrap your head around that fact.

http://www.gq.com/story/ted-cruz-republ ... age=5#note

Respect your troll job. I do.

Also pretty sure this says more about Ted Cruz than it does Penn Law.

[passedge]

what do the school splits look like for corporate lawyers?

[FredTheFish]

(and likely future president) Ted Cruz

I just threw up

[BillClinton Jr]

(and likely future president) Ted Cruz

I just threw up

+1

[twenty 8]

I was once offered a meaningful scholarship at Penn, I passed because living in the NE wasn’t what I wanted. A couple years later I saw that Penn was ranked as the #1 school in providing high paying BL jobs. As far as Penn vs Harvard, Penn wins. Penn is also where Trump’s daughter (from Marla) is attending Penn law. Given that Trump is worth billions and Cruz has to solicit the banks for funds….there’s nothing much else to add.

Sorry Harvard... Penn kicks butt.

[Aeon]

The employment score doesn't always tell the whole story, because of "unicorn" jobs, but the under-employment score is troubling. And if the goal is BigLaw, barring unusual circumstances, a scholarship at Penn is a solid option.