Is going to law school at age of 21 too young? Forum

[Babum]

As an international student who was 21 years old during my first year of law school, here are some things I wish I had done/known before.

1- More work experience. I know people say it is not required and that people can go straight through. That's not entirely correct. People who had worked before, in my opinion, seemed to fare better in class and work. It is not that they had the better grades, they just had a greater balance.

2- If you are aching for a legal experience, become a paralegal. Really, do it. Being a paralegal in biglaw will guarantee you better writing skills than that of your colleagues, and it will guarantee you a connection/job to one of the firms.

3- While being international will not per se cost you a job, it might very well make it harder for you to relate to interviewers during an interview.

4- Especially if you are international, you may not know what being a lawyer in the US means. It is not all fame and glamour, be sure to do your homework (and no, the self-serving circular logic of TLS' finest does not count).

[BigZuck]

As an international student who was 21 years old during my first year of law school, here are some things I wish I had done/known before.

1- More work experience. I know people say it is not required and that people can go straight through. That's not entirely correct. People who had worked before, in my opinion, seemed to fare better in class and work. It is not that they had the better grades, they just had a greater balance.

2- If you are aching for a legal experience, become a paralegal. Really, do it. Being a paralegal in biglaw will guarantee you better writing skills than that of your colleagues, and it will guarantee you a connection/job to one of the firms.

3- While being international will not per se cost you a job, it might very well make it harder for you to relate to interviewers during an interview.

4- Specially if you are international, you may not know what being a lawyer in the US means. It is not all fame and glamour, be sure to do your homework (and no, the self-serving circular logic of TLS' finest does not count).

Freaking TLS' finest and their self-serving circular logic

But seriously, what are you talking about?

[Babum]

As an international student who was 21 years old during my first year of law school, here are some things I wish I had done/known before.

1- More work experience. I know people say it is not required and that people can go straight through. That's not entirely correct. People who had worked before, in my opinion, seemed to fare better in class and work. It is not that they had the better grades, they just had a greater balance.

2- If you are aching for a legal experience, become a paralegal. Really, do it. Being a paralegal in biglaw will guarantee you better writing skills than that of your colleagues, and it will guarantee you a connection/job to one of the firms.

3- While being international will not per se cost you a job, it might very well make it harder for you to relate to interviewers during an interview.

4- Specially if you are international, you may not know what being a lawyer in the US means. It is not all fame and glamour, be sure to do your homework (and no, the self-serving circular logic of TLS' finest does not count).

Freaking TLS' finest and their self-serving circular logic

But seriously, what are you talking about?

I'm just saying a lot of the advice around TLS is not really sound, and a lot of the stories are just that, stories.

[BigZuck]

As an international student who was 21 years old during my first year of law school, here are some things I wish I had done/known before.

1- More work experience. I know people say it is not required and that people can go straight through. That's not entirely correct. People who had worked before, in my opinion, seemed to fare better in class and work. It is not that they had the better grades, they just had a greater balance.

2- If you are aching for a legal experience, become a paralegal. Really, do it. Being a paralegal in biglaw will guarantee you better writing skills than that of your colleagues, and it will guarantee you a connection/job to one of the firms.

3- While being international will not per se cost you a job, it might very well make it harder for you to relate to interviewers during an interview.

4- Specially if you are international, you may not know what being a lawyer in the US means. It is not all fame and glamour, be sure to do your homework (and no, the self-serving circular logic of TLS' finest does not count).

Freaking TLS' finest and their self-serving circular logic

But seriously, what are you talking about?

I'm just saying a lot of the advice around TLS is not really sound, and a lot of the stories are just that, stories.

Smells like you're farting in the wind bro

Be specific. What are you talking about?

[Babum]

I am not going to write a list of what advice I think is good and what is bad. That would simply open the gates for you to argue on the opposite side, leading us to a lengthy discussion (to which, I have no doubt, other people would love to chime in and offer their own points). I find that this discussion would lead down a pointless path.

If you want, I will concede to whatever point you are trying to make and reduce my comment to an 8-to-1 dissent. Think of it as a bitter Scalia dissent to be forever forgotten in the pages of history.

[rpupkin]

As an international student who was 21 years old during my first year of law school, here are some things I wish I had done/known before.

1- More work experience. I know people say it is not required and that people can go straight through. That's not entirely correct. People who had worked before, in my opinion, seemed to fare better in class and work. It is not that they had the better grades, they just had a greater balance.

2- If you are aching for a legal experience, become a paralegal. Really, do it. Being a paralegal in biglaw will guarantee you better writing skills than that of your colleagues, and it will guarantee you a connection/job to one of the firms.

3- While being international will not per se cost you a job, it might very well make it harder for you to relate to interviewers during an interview.

4- Specially if you are international, you may not know what being a lawyer in the US means. It is not all fame and glamour, be sure to do your homework (and no, the self-serving circular logic of TLS' finest does not count).

Freaking TLS' finest and their self-serving circular logic

But seriously, what are you talking about?

I'm just saying a lot of the advice around TLS is not really sound, and a lot of the stories are just that, stories.

Are you really this blind to your hypocrisy here? Your own advice is anecdotal and largely circular. (Also, I'm not sure you know what "self-serving" means.)

By the way, I think your advice is fine and sensible. (Just because something is anecdotal and circular doesn't mean it's wrong.) But your criticism of TLS is ridiculous in light of your own approach.

[Tiny123]

As an international student who was 21 years old during my first year of law school, here are some things I wish I had done/known before.

1- More work experience. I know people say it is not required and that people can go straight through. That's not entirely correct. People who had worked before, in my opinion, seemed to fare better in class and work. It is not that they had the better grades, they just had a greater balance.

2- If you are aching for a legal experience, become a paralegal. Really, do it. Being a paralegal in biglaw will guarantee you better writing skills than that of your colleagues, and it will guarantee you a connection/job to one of the firms.

3- While being international will not per se cost you a job, it might very well make it harder for you to relate to interviewers during an interview.

4- Especially if you are international, you may not know what being a lawyer in the US means. It is not all fame and glamour, be sure to do your homework (and no, the self-serving circular logic of TLS' finest does not count).

I thought since Paralegal job usually only require an AA, is not qualified for a work visa? Can you become a paralegal as international student? Because I am half way done with my paralegal course, at first I was just taking it to learn stuff.

[Babum]

As an international student who was 21 years old during my first year of law school, here are some things I wish I had done/known before.

1- More work experience. I know people say it is not required and that people can go straight through. That's not entirely correct. People who had worked before, in my opinion, seemed to fare better in class and work. It is not that they had the better grades, they just had a greater balance.

2- If you are aching for a legal experience, become a paralegal. Really, do it. Being a paralegal in biglaw will guarantee you better writing skills than that of your colleagues, and it will guarantee you a connection/job to one of the firms.

3- While being international will not per se cost you a job, it might very well make it harder for you to relate to interviewers during an interview.

4- Especially if you are international, you may not know what being a lawyer in the US means. It is not all fame and glamour, be sure to do your homework (and no, the self-serving circular logic of TLS' finest does not count).

I thought since Paralegal job usually only require an AA, is not qualified for a work visa? Can you become a paralegal as international student? Because I am half way done with my paralegal course, at first I was just taking it to learn stuff.

I had the same doubt. No idea if they sponsor visas or not. Perhaps, if you are currently enrolled in a paralegal course under an F1 visa, you could check to see if you qualify for OPT/CPT, then you wouldn't need a visa for 1 year.

[Tiny123]

As an international student who was 21 years old during my first year of law school, here are some things I wish I had done/known before.

1- More work experience. I know people say it is not required and that people can go straight through. That's not entirely correct. People who had worked before, in my opinion, seemed to fare better in class and work. It is not that they had the better grades, they just had a greater balance.

2- If you are aching for a legal experience, become a paralegal. Really, do it. Being a paralegal in biglaw will guarantee you better writing skills than that of your colleagues, and it will guarantee you a connection/job to one of the firms.

3- While being international will not per se cost you a job, it might very well make it harder for you to relate to interviewers during an interview.

4- Especially if you are international, you may not know what being a lawyer in the US means. It is not all fame and glamour, be sure to do your homework (and no, the self-serving circular logic of TLS' finest does not count).

I thought since Paralegal job usually only require an AA, is not qualified for a work visa? Can you become a paralegal as international student? Because I am half way done with my paralegal course, at first I was just taking it to learn stuff.

I had the same doubt. No idea if they sponsor visas or not. Perhaps, if you are currently enrolled in a paralegal course under an F1 visa, you could check to see if you qualify for OPT/CPT, then you wouldn't need a visa for 1 year.

I know that Baker&McKenzie sponsored 11 paralegals for their H1b last year, and there are some few other firms does, but I dont know if those people hold a BA in paralegal or just AA.

[BigZuck]

I am not going to write a list of what advice I think is good and what is bad. That would simply open the gates for you to argue on the opposite side, leading us to a lengthy discussion (to which, I have no doubt, other people would love to chime in and offer their own points). I find that this discussion would lead down a pointless path.

If you want, I will concede to whatever point you are trying to make and reduce my comment to an 8-to-1 dissent. Think of it as a bitter Scalia dissent to be forever forgotten in the pages of history.

So you're farting into the wind like so many wind farters before you? I mean, you brought it up. But then you don't want to talk about it?

This is my point: Don't just randomly make stuff up duder. That's dumb.

And definitely don't start making con law jokes. No one should be that guy.

[Babum]

As an international student who was 21 years old during my first year of law school, here are some things I wish I had done/known before.

1- More work experience. I know people say it is not required and that people can go straight through. That's not entirely correct. People who had worked before, in my opinion, seemed to fare better in class and work. It is not that they had the better grades, they just had a greater balance.

2- If you are aching for a legal experience, become a paralegal. Really, do it. Being a paralegal in biglaw will guarantee you better writing skills than that of your colleagues, and it will guarantee you a connection/job to one of the firms.

3- While being international will not per se cost you a job, it might very well make it harder for you to relate to interviewers during an interview.

4- Especially if you are international, you may not know what being a lawyer in the US means. It is not all fame and glamour, be sure to do your homework (and no, the self-serving circular logic of TLS' finest does not count).

I thought since Paralegal job usually only require an AA, is not qualified for a work visa? Can you become a paralegal as international student? Because I am half way done with my paralegal course, at first I was just taking it to learn stuff.

I had the same doubt. No idea if they sponsor visas or not. Perhaps, if you are currently enrolled in a paralegal course under an F1 visa, you could check to see if you qualify for OPT/CPT, then you wouldn't need a visa for 1 year.

I know that Baker&McKenzie sponsored 11 paralegals for their H1b last year, and there are some few other firms does, but I dont know if those people hold a BA in paralegal or just AA.

Interesting, I had no idea that they did that

[jovianbean]

Back to OP's question..

I think it depends. I took several years off in between and started law school a few years older than average. On one hand I am happy because I got to travel the world and have a lot of fun experiences; on the other hand I am competing and am being placed for the exact same jobs as peers 3, 4, and 5 years younger than me--so they have a "head start" of sorts.

If one is 100% career focused and wants to try and achieve various hard to achieve goals in the law as soon as possible, AND one is relatively mature and has a lot of confidence in one's ability, then law school at age 21 is fine. However, for most people I think it wouldn't hurt to do a few years of something else; for one, you'll probably never have the chance again--and it will be fun. Another reason is that if you do anything that even remotely uses your brain for the next few years (even if it is just read / write casually) you will start law school more mature and at least marginally smarter. That might help you succeed in law school.

Good luck!

[BigZuck]

Back to OP's question..

I think it depends. I took several years off in between and started law school a few years older than average. On one hand I am happy because I got to travel the world and have a lot of fun experiences; on the other hand I am competing and am being placed for the exact same jobs as peers 3, 4, and 5 years younger than me--so they have a "head start" of sorts.

If one is 100% career focused and wants to try and achieve various hard to achieve goals in the law as soon as possible, AND one is relatively mature and has a lot of confidence in one's ability, then law school at age 21 is fine. However, for most people I think it wouldn't hurt to do a few years of something else; for one, you'll probably never have the chance again--and it will be fun. Another reason is that if you do anything that even remotely uses your brain for the next few years (even if it is just read / write casually) you will start law school more mature and at least marginally smarter. That might help you succeed in law school.

Good luck!

How do you quantify their "head start" and how does that negatively affect you?

[jovianbean]

You quantify that head start in terms of years. In the firm hypothetical, person X will be up for partner (if we both go that route, lets say) when she is 34, whereas I will be 39.

How does that negatively affect me? You could argue this either way--maybe it does not negatively affect me at all--perhaps I'll live longer than person x, or perhaps I got more out of law school bc I started later and so am more competitive. On the other hand, if achieving a lot within the legal profession by a certain age is something either I or someone else thinks is a big positive, it would negatively affect me to start super late. Not that I would ever be in the running for something like this, but here is an example: Article III judges tend to have had very successful careers. When politicians look around for candidates, they are generally hoping for someone that has had a ton of great career success AND is still quite young. That way they'll be on the bench longer.

[anon180]

21 is only a year younger than most. You can take a year off to do something else if you want, join peacecorps maybe? But I'd just enroll in school.

[A. Nony Mouse]

You quantify that head start in terms of years. In the firm hypothetical, person X will be up for partner (if we both go that route, lets say) when she is 34, whereas I will be 39.

How does that negatively affect me? You could argue this either way--maybe it does not negatively affect me at all--perhaps I'll live longer than person x, or perhaps I got more out of law school bc I started later and so am more competitive. On the other hand, if achieving a lot within the legal profession by a certain age is something either I or someone else thinks is a big positive, it would negatively affect me to start super late. Not that I would ever be in the running for something like this, but here is an example: Article III judges tend to have had very successful careers. When politicians look around for candidates, they are generally hoping for someone that has had a ton of great career success AND is still quite young. That way they'll be on the bench longer.

And you had experiences those people didn't have.

The thing is, you didn't start super late. 3-5 years older isn't going to make the slightest bit of difference. Someone appointing a judge isn't going to pick one person over another based on 5 years. I know what you're getting at, because at some point, it matters (I am way old and have resigned myself to being a poor judge candidate because by the time I have enough experience I'll be too close to retirement). But I don't think a few years makes a difference, especially since most people take at least a couple of years. (And I'm way old to be an entry level lawyer because I went and did a whole bunch of other stuff that my peers haven't done, so oh well. I can't both have had those experiences and advance as far as I might like to in this profession.)

[rpupkin]

Not that I would ever be in the running for something like this, but here is an example: Article III judges tend to have had very successful careers. When politicians look around for candidates, they are generally hoping for someone that has had a ton of great career success AND is still quite young. That way they'll be on the bench longer.

You could not have chosen a less representative example. When you're dealing with life-tenured appointments by a temporary political leader, it's obvious why relative youth would be a plus. But other legal jobs aren't like article III judgeships.

[jovianbean]

Fair enough re: Art. 3 judges. That is definitely an outlier. Again, I said you could argue this either way--to some relative youth seems to matter (at least subjectively). They want to be on those "top 30 under 30" lists or whatever. I think its mostly stupid and agree with both of you that it doesn't really matter if its 3-5 years. Honestly I am happy I dicked around for a few yrs because I'll probably never get the chance to do some of the dumb things I did. All I am saying is that if I cared a LOT about how people seem to perceive youth + attaining certain jobs as a positive, I might have gone a bit earlier. I am not trying to argue it appreciably hurts your career in the vast majority of legal jobs if you take a 3-5 yr break.

[Troianii]

I'm not sure you understand how vacation in big law usually works

Oftentimes you have unlimited vacation which means you take less vacation then someone working in another industry, especially when you're a junior lawyer

And you almost certainly can't negotiate less salary for more vacation days

I'm guessing most smaller firms are similar (although maybe not the unlimited vacation thing)

I really just did a little google legwork - which anyone can do. This thread, as well as others, and links outside of the forum indicate over and over again that 15-20 vacation days is pretty standard for big law. http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... p?t=189876

Of course there are always exceptions, but apart from your say-so, I haven't seen anything to indicate that the norm is any different. Some firms do, of course, set minimum 'billable hours', and a bonus threshold for 'billable hours', with minimums usually somewheres around 1800 (since obviously many of your hours won't be billable), but firms like that (again, based on reading anyone here can easily google) are usually fairly open as long as your reaching your goals. These are the kinds of firms with the "unlimited vacation". That, again, doesn't seem like such a bad system in general to me. There's some room for abuse by the employer, but generally speaking that means that you can choose to work your tail off for extended periods to get vacation time. Some prefer to work their tails off during the week so they can get a longer weekend, some prefer to work their tails off with short weekends so they can manage a longer vacation.

And more vacation time has actually been rapidly increasing broadly as a way to improve compensation packages, both for bringing in top talent and retaining top talent. Now obviously that won't be the case for a biglaw firm which works "unlimited vacation" with minimum billable hours.

Anyway you slice it, ignore this post OP. Anyone who tells you to attend law school at 21 rather than travel the world doesn't have your best interests in mind.

So basically ad hom criticizing the conclusion independent of the rationale - nice bro.

[Troianii]

21 is only a year younger than most. You can take a year off to do something else if you want, join peacecorps maybe? But I'd just enroll in school.

+1

It just seems to me like taking two years off, basically for 'play', is too much.

[BigZuck]

I'm not sure you understand how vacation in big law usually works

Oftentimes you have unlimited vacation which means you take less vacation then someone working in another industry, especially when you're a junior lawyer

And you almost certainly can't negotiate less salary for more vacation days

I'm guessing most smaller firms are similar (although maybe not the unlimited vacation thing)

I really just did a little google legwork - which anyone can do. This thread, as well as others, and links outside of the forum indicate over and over again that 15-20 vacation days is pretty standard for big law. http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... p?t=189876

Of course there are always exceptions, but apart from your say-so, I haven't seen anything to indicate that the norm is any different. Some firms do, of course, set minimum 'billable hours', and a bonus threshold for 'billable hours', with minimums usually somewheres around 1800 (since obviously many of your hours won't be billable), but firms like that (again, based on reading anyone here can easily google) are usually fairly open as long as your reaching your goals. These are the kinds of firms with the "unlimited vacation". That, again, doesn't seem like such a bad system in general to me. There's some room for abuse by the employer, but generally speaking that means that you can choose to work your tail off for extended periods to get vacation time. Some prefer to work their tails off during the week so they can get a longer weekend, some prefer to work their tails off with short weekends so they can manage a longer vacation.

And more vacation time has actually been rapidly increasing broadly as a way to improve compensation packages, both for bringing in top talent and retaining top talent. Now obviously that won't be the case for a biglaw firm which works "unlimited vacation" with minimum billable hours.

Anyway you slice it, ignore this post OP. Anyone who tells you to attend law school at 21 rather than travel the world doesn't have your best interests in mind.

So basically ad hom criticizing the conclusion independent of the rationale - nice bro.

Yeah what you're describing doesn't jive with what I have seen/heard from big lawyers regarding how their vacation time works in reality. Especially when they are entry level/junior.

And someone who tells a 21 year old that they should go to law school of all places instead of travel the world if they have that opportunity doesn't have that person's best interests in mind. Period. Full stop.

[A. Nony Mouse]

21 is only a year younger than most. You can take a year off to do something else if you want, join peacecorps maybe? But I'd just enroll in school.

+1

It just seems to me like taking two years off, basically for 'play', is too much.

Two years is nothing. It's like the blink of an eye. It's not going to make the slightest bit of difference.

[Tiny123]

21 is only a year younger than most. You can take a year off to do something else if you want, join peacecorps maybe? But I'd just enroll in school.

+1

It just seems to me like taking two years off, basically for 'play', is too much.

Two years is nothing. It's like the blink of an eye. It's not going to make the slightest bit of difference.

The only difference to me is graduating at age of 24 or 26.. It doesn't seem be too big of a difference.

[Troianii]

21 is only a year younger than most. You can take a year off to do something else if you want, join peacecorps maybe? But I'd just enroll in school.

+1

It just seems to me like taking two years off, basically for 'play', is too much.

Two years is nothing. It's like the blink of an eye. It's not going to make the slightest bit of difference.

The only difference to me is graduating at age of 24 or 26.. It doesn't seem be too big of a difference.

With the obvious consequences, which are no small differences. And again, I see little point in waiting that long.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Wait, what are the obvious consequences?