The Power of a good LOR Forum

[LawsRUs]

My post was talking about scholarship.... No contradiction, just misunderstanding I guess.

[rrwwa]

He was referencing the fact that applicants don't get scholarships based on softs. He never said they're not authorized to use LORs for admissions purposes. The point is: scholarships are based on merit or need. You're not going to get a scholarship based on two paragraphs written by a teacher.

lol guess my T-14 really "needed" someone with a low GPA during the first round of scholarship offers. They needed me way more than other applicants who applied at the same time, with higher GPAs and similar or higher LSATs.

Also my scholarship isn't decided by random adcoms going rogue. There's a committee for the particular scholarship, with professors. I imagine at lower ranked schools it's much more numbers dependent, but if you're aiming for top scholarships at top schools, softs absolutely count. My guess is they picked me, despite my lower GPA, over some rando K-JD whose only proof of success was a 4.0 in intro to poli sci at a state school.

As I said before, I had one outstanding LOR plus several other softs. Individually, they all look pretty lame, but together they must have helped.

[Generally]

Post removed.

[shump92]

False dichotomy. It's generally a debate between those who have spent a long time with the data on lawschoolnumbers.com (and/or seen the results of many application cycles) and those who have not.

problem is there is only a few of you who have been around a long time. I often see people who joined last month and just finished the LSAT telling people what they NEED to do with a personal statement or addendum, and they are still writing theirs.

Just curious, are you talking about something beyond just offering edits and a recommendation? I know I am someone who fits this vague description but I am never trying to say that my opinion is perfect advice or anything.

[cdotson2]

False dichotomy. It's generally a debate between those who have spent a long time with the data on lawschoolnumbers.com (and/or seen the results of many application cycles) and those who have not.

problem is there is only a few of you who have been around a long time. I often see people who joined last month and just finished the LSAT telling people what they NEED to do with a personal statement or addendum, and they are still writing theirs.

Just curious, are you talking about something beyond just offering edits and a recommendation? I know I am someone who fits this vague description but I am never trying to say that my opinion is perfect advice or anything.

Honestly though the only thread if you actually want real advice is the one with Karen spivey and meeker. going through several cycles, or looking at the data only does so much and those of us a month out have read through all the threads and looked at all the numbers.

[NigeranOU]

He was referencing the fact that applicants don't get scholarships based on softs. He never said they're not authorized to use LORs for admissions purposes. The point is: scholarships are based on merit or need. You're not going to get a scholarship based on two paragraphs written by a teacher.

lol guess my T-14 really "needed" someone with a low GPA during the first round of scholarship offers. They needed me way more than other applicants who applied at the same time, with higher GPAs and similar or higher LSATs.

Also my scholarship isn't decided by random adcoms going rogue. There's a committee for the particular scholarship, with professors. I imagine at lower ranked schools it's much more numbers dependent, but if you're aiming for top scholarships at top schools, softs absolutely count. My guess is they picked me, despite my lower GPA, over some rando K-JD whose only proof of success was a 4.0 in intro to poli sci at a state school.

As I said before, I had one outstanding LOR plus several other softs. Individually, they all look pretty lame, but together they must have helped.

where did you get in if you don't mind me asking, also congrats!

[A. Nony Mouse]

My post was talking about scholarship.... No contradiction, just misunderstanding I guess.

I don't know why scholarships would be distinct from the rest of the admissions process. If they want a candidate in the class, they can consider whatever factors, and that includes when they're offering scholarships.

I think TSL is right that in the vast majority of cases they don't tip the scales either way. For one thing, most people get positive LORs. I think that they can help somewhat where there's room for holistic assessment and they fit into a clear, coherent narrative supported throughout your application in PS, resume, etc. But that's probably a very small number of applicants, mostly at the tippy top.

[LawsRUs]

They would be distinct because there is a fairness issue wrt scholarships. I was told from an ao that they are aware of students talking about their scholarships and their numbers once school starts. People talk even at ASWs and on here beside seeing them on LSN. They said they wanted to give fair amounts based on their UGPA and LSAT relative to people with similar stats. Letting LORs factor in would give an unfair advantage (people who go to a small private school, people whose major is in a small department, what have you) for general scholarships, so they don't tend to do it. Particular scholarships are a different animal though, and there wasn't anything that suggested that some people were talking about specific scholarships until it was mentioned.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Perhaps it makes more sense to consider that LORs etc. are more threshold matters - you have to get admitted before you can be awarded a scholarship. So (in theory) a 3.6/172 with better LORs (and PS and resume and so one) may get admitted over another 3.6/172 who has an otherwise mediocre application. but once admitted gets whatever someone with those stats gets. The LOR still has an effect on your scholarship options, by getting you into the school.

(Still not sure that everyone with the same stats gets offered the same amount at any given school, though.)

[shump92]

(Still not sure that everyone with the same stats gets offered the same amount at any given school, though.)

I wonder if one factor for this is the admit's ability to pay. HYS do this explicitly and I'm sure that most T14s want to have people from different backgrounds as much as possible.

I'm excluding the negotiation factor here but when people have the same "merit", the allocation might favor students who would be presumed to be debt-averse.

[jbagelboy]

Everything TSL has said in this thread is credited

Anything anyone else has said to the contrary is bullshit .

OP, if your numbers are Yale/Stanford/Berkeley quality, than your letter could make some impact in pushing you over the edge. If you're talking about schools like UCLA and some lower T14 and your numbers aren't borderline, then no, it won't matter and they might not all be read.

[A. Nony Mouse]

(Still not sure that everyone with the same stats gets offered the same amount at any given school, though.)

I wonder if one factor for this is the admit's ability to pay. HYS do this explicitly and I'm sure that most T14s want to have people from different backgrounds as much as possible.

I'm excluding the negotiation factor here but when people have the same "merit", the allocation might favor students who would be presumed to be debt-averse.

Thinking about it, it's probably more due to when the application gets in than anything else. I think most schools make a pretty clear distinction between merit and need aid.

[NigeranOU]

So many different opinions on this thread that I've pretty much just disregarded everything. The only ones that I have considered are the people who have actually applied and seen results. I wasn't even banking on my LOR getting me into the T-14 I just wanted to know IN GENERAL the kind of weight a strong one could hold. A lot of people ran with it that question throwing out scholarship information, Yale/stanford (the ones only 2 I'm not applying to) etc. Sheesh. Y'all need to relaxxxxx

[A. Nony Mouse]

So many different opinions on this thread that I've pretty much just disregarded everything. The only ones that I have considered are the people who have actually applied and seen results. I wasn't even banking on my LOR getting me into the T-14 I just wanted to know IN GENERAL the kind of weight a strong one could hold. A lot of people ran with it that question throwing out scholarship information, Yale/stanford (the ones only 2 I'm not applying to) etc. Sheesh. Y'all need to relaxxxxx

thesealocust probably one of the best-informed posters on this site, for the record. People talking based on their own applications are always operating from incomplete information.

[NigeranOU]

So many different opinions on this thread that I've pretty much just disregarded everything. The only ones that I have considered are the people who have actually applied and seen results. I wasn't even banking on my LOR getting me into the T-14 I just wanted to know IN GENERAL the kind of weight a strong one could hold. A lot of people ran with it that question throwing out scholarship information, Yale/stanford (the ones only 2 I'm not applying to) etc. Sheesh. Y'all need to relaxxxxx

thesealocust probably one of the best-informed posters on this site, for the record. People talking based on their own applications are always operating from incomplete information.

Is it really incomplete information? If a splitter with less than median stats gets in, are we not kind of peering into the minds of AO's? Correct me if I'm wrong? It's definitely not a widespread theory like that Michigan letter suggests, but a strong letter of rec can help you WHEN you really need it. And I will probably be that person.

[A. Nony Mouse]

So many different opinions on this thread that I've pretty much just disregarded everything. The only ones that I have considered are the people who have actually applied and seen results. I wasn't even banking on my LOR getting me into the T-14 I just wanted to know IN GENERAL the kind of weight a strong one could hold. A lot of people ran with it that question throwing out scholarship information, Yale/stanford (the ones only 2 I'm not applying to) etc. Sheesh. Y'all need to relaxxxxx

thesealocust probably one of the best-informed posters on this site, for the record. People talking based on their own applications are always operating from incomplete information.

Is it really incomplete information? If a splitter with less than median stats gets in, are we not kind of peering into the minds of AO's? Correct me if I'm wrong? It's definitely not a widespread theory like that Michigan letter suggests, but a strong letter of rec can help you WHEN you really need it. And I will probably be that person.

No, it's incomplete information. There could have been any number of reasons why any given one person got in, even a splitter with less than median stats, and people are notoriously unreliable evaluators of their own materials (softs, PS, etc.).

[shump92]

So many different opinions on this thread that I've pretty much just disregarded everything. The only ones that I have considered are the people who have actually applied and seen results. I wasn't even banking on my LOR getting me into the T-14 I just wanted to know IN GENERAL the kind of weight a strong one could hold. A lot of people ran with it that question throwing out scholarship information, Yale/stanford (the ones only 2 I'm not applying to) etc. Sheesh. Y'all need to relaxxxxx

thesealocust probably one of the best-informed posters on this site, for the record. People talking based on their own applications are always operating from incomplete information.

Is it really incomplete information? If a splitter with less than median stats gets in, are we not kind of peering into the minds of AO's? Correct me if I'm wrong? It's definitely not a widespread theory like that Michigan letter suggests, but a strong letter of rec can help you WHEN you really need it. And I will probably be that person.

Yeah anyone who was not an adcomm member has incomplete information. People have views shaped by their experience on admissions and what people who have been involved with the process told them. When I've spoken with adcomm members, they told me that almost all of the decision weight goes to LSAT and your UG transcript. The only huge exception to that norm is URM and everything else is white noise that can complement those 2/3 things. In rare cases that does matter.

[NigeranOU]

So many different opinions on this thread that I've pretty much just disregarded everything. The only ones that I have considered are the people who have actually applied and seen results. I wasn't even banking on my LOR getting me into the T-14 I just wanted to know IN GENERAL the kind of weight a strong one could hold. A lot of people ran with it that question throwing out scholarship information, Yale/stanford (the ones only 2 I'm not applying to) etc. Sheesh. Y'all need to relaxxxxx

thesealocust probably one of the best-informed posters on this site, for the record. People talking based on their own applications are always operating from incomplete information.

Is it really incomplete information? If a splitter with less than median stats gets in, are we not kind of peering into the minds of AO's? Correct me if I'm wrong? It's definitely not a widespread theory like that Michigan letter suggests, but a strong letter of rec can help you WHEN you really need it. And I will probably be that person.

Yeah anyone who was not an adcomm member has incomplete information. People have views shaped by their experience on admissions and what people who have been involved with the process told them. When I've spoken with adcomm members, they told me that almost all of the decision weight goes to LSAT and your UG transcript. The only huge exception to that norm is URM and everything else is white noise that can complement those 2/3 things. In rare cases that does matter.

1) Then why do they ask for them. 2) A few adcomm members isn't representative of all

[shump92]

1) Then why do they ask for them.

[quote="shump92]
everything else can complement those 2/3 things. In rare cases that does matter.
[/quote]

2) A few adcomm members isn't representative of all

No but it's more evidence to what people like tsl said. See the rest of this thread for reasons why.

[Mack.Hambleton]

So many different opinions on this thread that I've pretty much just disregarded everything. The only ones that I have considered are the people who have actually applied and seen results. I wasn't even banking on my LOR getting me into the T-14 I just wanted to know IN GENERAL the kind of weight a strong one could hold. A lot of people ran with it that question throwing out scholarship information, Yale/stanford (the ones only 2 I'm not applying to) etc. Sheesh. Y'all need to relaxxxxx

Just apply and find out.

[lavarman84]

So many different opinions on this thread that I've pretty much just disregarded everything. The only ones that I have considered are the people who have actually applied and seen results. I wasn't even banking on my LOR getting me into the T-14 I just wanted to know IN GENERAL the kind of weight a strong one could hold. A lot of people ran with it that question throwing out scholarship information, Yale/stanford (the ones only 2 I'm not applying to) etc. Sheesh. Y'all need to relaxxxxx

I believe this is called confirmation bias. You chose to ignore the opinions of every person but the people who told you what you wanted to hear?

Look, unless someone here works in admissions for schools you're considering applying to, nobody is going to be able to give a concrete answer. If you want to ignore all the answers because of that, that's totally understandable. But why ask the question if you only are going to listen to the minority of people that gave you answers that reflected what you wanted to hear? In the end, all the answers are meaningless because you have a great LOR, you're going to submit it either ways, and it may or may not help you.

That all said, there's nothing wrong with people tempering expectations by explaining that it might be a small (or negligible) boost but it likely won't make a significant difference. That seems like the general consensus here.

[NigeranOU]

So many different opinions on this thread that I've pretty much just disregarded everything. The only ones that I have considered are the people who have actually applied and seen results. I wasn't even banking on my LOR getting me into the T-14 I just wanted to know IN GENERAL the kind of weight a strong one could hold. A lot of people ran with it that question throwing out scholarship information, Yale/stanford (the ones only 2 I'm not applying to) etc. Sheesh. Y'all need to relaxxxxx

I believe this is called confirmation bias. You chose to ignore the opinions of every person but the people who told you what you wanted to hear?

Look, unless someone here works in admissions for schools you're considering applying to, nobody is going to be able to give a concrete answer. If you want to ignore all the answers because of that, that's totally understandable. But why ask the question if you only are going to listen to the minority of people that gave you answers that reflected what you wanted to hear? In the end, all the answers are meaningless because you have a great LOR, you're going to submit it either ways, and it may or may not help you.

That all said, there's nothing wrong with people tempering expectations by explaining that it might be a small (or negligible) boost but it likely won't make a significant difference. That seems like the general consensus here.

great reply