A Message to Incoming T-14 Students Forum

[BNA]

I legitimately can't tell if some of the commenters on this post are serious or if they're joking and if they're just joking doesn't it get old being negative so much? For example, 80% of the time I see the Zuck posters comments on this site they are unnecessarily rude/unproductive with a slight mask of him trying to make it seem less serious through pretending like he is trolling. I don't understand what's so bad about OP congratulating people about getting into a decent law school on a law school forum... Yeah maybe if there were 10 posts on here like this it'd be annoying but there is never anything like this posted on here frequently that's just generally positive.

There is a mountain of insecurity around here. People attack others who aren't as "accomplished." Grade school all over again.

[A. Nony Mouse]

(1) Paralyzed, at least in one case, as in they were depressed during almost all of their 0L summer and almost withdrew from a T14 law school even though (i) they were sure they wanted to be a lawyer and (ii) they were going to graduate with basically no debt due to scholarship money.

Not intending to diminish this person's issues, but how is that on TLS rather than on the realities of the legal profession and/or life? No one here tells anyone that going to a T14 with basically no debt is a bad decision. (If they were a reverse splitter with a shot at an even better school with money, yeah, someone will suggest they retake, but I still don't think anyone gets told going to any of the T14 with no debt is a *bad* idea.)

(4) I never said going to law school is automatically a good financial investment. In fact, I said in the very post you quoted that "Students should be aware of the reality of their situation, of the potential risks and rewards." I just think the way some posters go about spreading the awareness is wrong, and often over the top.

The thing is, though, the vast majority of threads here are asking for advice about whether/where to go to law school, so the point is in large part to address exactly whether it's a decent financial investment. As Mack pointed out, there are many more other congratulatory threads here. If you haven't checked into the waiting threads and the "class of" threads, you should; that's where the kind of encouragement you talk about takes place. In fact, it's against the forum rules to go into those threads and tell people to retake/they shouldn't go to that school, even for objectively bad schools.

That said, sure, TLS is a pretty blunt place. People don't sugar coat their opinions here. You also get a lot of people in the on-topics who have been here a while and seen a lot of the same questions answered over and over again, who may get a little short with answers because they forget that newbies haven't seen those questions already, who could maybe be a little more patient. To be fair, some newbies would benefit from reading around the site and figuring out how it works before posting questions.

(Also, the OP is just as much about criticizing the TLS regulars for not being sufficiently congratulatory as it is about actually congratulating T14-ers.)

[chuckbass]

I legitimately can't tell if some of the commenters on this post are serious or if they're joking and if they're just joking doesn't it get old being negative so much? For example, 80% of the time I see the Zuck posters comments on this site they are unnecessarily rude/unproductive with a slight mask of him trying to make it seem less serious through pretending like he is trolling. I don't understand what's so bad about OP congratulating people about getting into a decent law school on a law school forum... Yeah maybe if there were 10 posts on here like this it'd be annoying but there is never anything like this posted on here frequently that's just generally positive.

There is a mountain of insecurity around here. People attack others who aren't as "accomplished." Grade school all over again.

Lol zuck is blunt but also one of the most well-meaning and genuinely helpful people on here.

[smile0751]

I'm hugely grateful for TLS. I don't think it's too pessimistic at all. I think it's the counterbalance to people's optimistic bias.

That being said, if people on this site can't take in the advice, examine it, apply it to their own situation, and then make their own decision...they have a lot of growing to do. I ask for advice, because I want to hear what other people with their own experiences think. I'm in no way bound by it, but I make a smarter decision by at least acknowledging and considering other opinions/thoughts.

But the OP was trying to be nice. Sure, maybe you can debate how great of an accomplishment getting into the T14 is, but either way I know I'm happy to be done with apps. The post wasn't as offensive as some people seem to be taking it. There are far more offensive things in the lounge.

[BigZuck]

pessimistic

or realistic?

Being pessimistic (to an extent) can be good thing. Students should be aware of the reality of their situation, of the potential risks and rewards. But what we don't want is crippling fear. I know of a few readers who have been almost paralyzed by it after reading TLS. Thus posters on this website don't necessary need to change their advice, but many do need to change the way in which they give it.

Almost paralyzed in what way? One of the goals of many people here in many situations is to dissuade people from going to law school, so that might be considered a success.

Can you give an example of fear-mongering?

Why do you think these accomplished 0Ls need their hands being held? There's tons of information on this site about how to succeed.

No one says that getting into these schools isn't an accomplishment or is of little value. But just because someone worked hard and overcame significant obstacles to get into a school doesn't automatically make going to that school a good financial investment. Those are two separate things.

(1) Paralyzed, at least in one case, as in they were depressed during almost all of their 0L summer and almost withdrew from a T14 law school even though (i) they were sure they wanted to be a lawyer and (ii) they were going to graduate with basically no debt due to scholarship money. (2) I cannot, at the moment, provide you with an exact example of this. But I am sure several fine examples will pop up as the application season starts going. You better believe I will be on the hunt. (3) I don't think most of these students need their hands held, but some students do need a pat on the back. In particular, many students who are coming from non-prestigious undergraduate institutions and/or lower income households may feel especially anxious about staring at an elite law school. Some will even be leaving their hometowns for the first time. If my post can remind even just one of such individuals how far they have come, I think that is a significant contribution to this community. (4) I never said going to law school is automatically a good financial investment. In fact, I said in the very post you quoted that "Students should be aware of the reality of their situation, of the potential risks and rewards." I just think the way some posters go about spreading the awareness is wrong, and often over the top.

Yeah this person's issues run far deeper than TLS, that is in no way TLS' problem.

There's so many avenues for congratulations that people can go to (and as some have pointed out, there are avenues on this very site). The Hive doesn't need to hold back when that person makes a Choosing thread. It just doesn't.

I swear the purpose of tls is to consciously or unconsciously thin the herd. You guys and gals should recognize the potential of a community like this. Tls should/could actualize reform, not just bitch about aba regs or deject driven, (mostly) capable people from behind your computer monitor.

I've learned a great amount from tls, and appreciate every bit of it, but I'm on board with the direction op is headed. I'm greatful to pick out bits of very intelligent and relevant information, but there is SO much more that can be accomplished here. "Retake or don't go" is fucking lazy.

How, specifically, is that lazy? And what could/should TLS be doing differently? What are some examples of these missed opportunities?

I legitimately can't tell if some of the commenters on this post are serious or if they're joking and if they're just joking doesn't it get old being negative so much? For example, 80% of the time I see the Zuck posters comments on this site they are unnecessarily rude/unproductive with a slight mask of him trying to make it seem less serious through pretending like he is trolling. I don't understand what's so bad about OP congratulating people about getting into a decent law school on a law school forum... Yeah maybe if there were 10 posts on here like this it'd be annoying but there is never anything like this posted on here frequently that's just generally positive.

I think the trolly nature of some people's responses and mine especially can be bad at times. I think Nony makes a good point about about why that happens. As for me personally, sometimes I get overly blunt when I've posted a lot about the same thing or if I like post late at night or something. That's something I struggle with being better at and I think I'm better now than I used to be but still have room for improvement. Also, and maybe I should be ashamed to admit this because it reveals just how unoriginal I am, but I think Rad Lulz (RIP) is the single greatest on topic poster and advice giver this forum has ever seen and I like the short, blunt "Retake" type responses as an homage to him. But anyway I think the biggest issue I have sometimes is jokeyness that is a callback to an earlier thread or just sort of "meta" in a way that isn't helpful to a newbie. That's probably my biggest weakness and the source of that is me just having a very bad sense of humor and not being funny. That's something that might be irreparably broken.

But yeah I'm personally not going to feel bad for my contributions, I'm fairly confident that I'm more of a net positive than a net negative. And I KNOW that the Dexert Foxes of the world are a net positive, so whatever guys.

[BigZuck]

I legitimately can't tell if some of the commenters on this post are serious or if they're joking and if they're just joking doesn't it get old being negative so much? For example, 80% of the time I see the Zuck posters comments on this site they are unnecessarily rude/unproductive with a slight mask of him trying to make it seem less serious through pretending like he is trolling. I don't understand what's so bad about OP congratulating people about getting into a decent law school on a law school forum... Yeah maybe if there were 10 posts on here like this it'd be annoying but there is never anything like this posted on here frequently that's just generally positive.

There is a mountain of insecurity around here. People attack others who aren't as "accomplished." Grade school all over again.

Yeah no this is certainly not what's happening

[monsterman]

maybe its a good thing to get a little butthurt from honest and much-needed advice. Having worked with a couple people this summer that have never even heard of TLS, LST, ATL, etc., 0Ls need all the info and advice they can get before entering school. There was a guy from a T2 talking about his school's "95% employment rate," which his school lied to him about. LST has that school at just over 50%. Another girl is a 3L from a TTTT, who had to hire a headhunter and didn't know what OCI was. Schools are still doing horrible fucking things to prospective students, so it is an objectively good thing that TLS sometimes crushes the hopes and dreams of 0Ls, because those hopes and dreams were riding on the backs of trumped up expectations and deceitful admissions officers. end rant

[ManoftheHour]

Lol zuck is blunt but also one of the most well-meaning and genuinely helpful people on here.

[180kickflip]

I think the response to OP is a bit harsh. His original post didn't call out any TLSers specifically, and I don't think the intention was to downplay the contributions of the posters that were mentioned later. OP's first post specifically said that a lot of the "retake" type advise (that is often offered by the posters mentioned) is probably right. I took that as him recognizing the value of reality-based commentary, and that IMO made the rest of the post come off pretty well.

All he's doing is taking a second to congratulate some law school hopefuls on getting into some of the best schools. Since law school admission is so heavily based on GPA/LSAT, I don't think congratulating someone on a t14 acceptance is too far removed from congratulating them on maintaining a high GPA and scoring well on the LSAT. I think most people can agree that those things are somewhat worth recognizing (as are well written statements, etc).

Yes, there are other places on TLS where people offer congratulations, but I don't see why those have to be the only places for them. When people ask if they should go to schools they absolutely should not or if they should take out more debt than they will easily repay in the future, I love that the TLS hive mind kicks in to drag them back to good sense, but I don't think this was one of those times.

OP wasn't saying being a lawyer is fun. He didn't say biglaw is a good long term goal or t14 admission guaranteed any positive outcome. He just said "good job," and that doesn't deserve a negative or sarcastic response

[spleenworship]

There is a mountain of insecurity around here. People attack others who aren't as "accomplished." Grade school all over again.

That's like, not what is happening at all.

[spleenworship]

I think the response to OP is a bit harsh. His original post didn't call out any TLSers specifically, and I don't think the intention was to downplay the contributions of the posters that were mentioned later. OP's first post specifically said that a lot of the "retake" type advise (that is often offered by the posters mentioned) is probably right. I took that as him recognizing the value of reality-based commentary, and that IMO made the rest of the post come off pretty well.

All he's doing is taking a second to congratulate some law school hopefuls on getting into some of the best schools. Since law school admission is so heavily based on GPA/LSAT, I don't think congratulating someone on a t14 acceptance is too far removed from congratulating them on maintaining a high GPA and scoring well on the LSAT. I think most people can agree that those things are somewhat worth recognizing (as are well written statements, etc).

Yes, there are other places on TLS where people offer congratulations, but I don't see why those have to be the only places for them. When people ask if they should go to schools they absolutely should not or if they should take out more debt than they will easily repay in the future, I love that the TLS hive mind kicks in to drag them back to good sense, but I don't think this was one of those times.

OP wasn't saying being a lawyer is fun. He didn't say biglaw is a good long term goal or t14 admission guaranteed any positive outcome. He just said "good job," and that doesn't deserve a negative or sarcastic response

The thing is that if you have a pulse, a brain, and a BA, chances are you are getting into at least one T14. That doesn't mean much at all. What determines success is: your scholarships, the classes and internships you take, the clubs you join, and huge buttloads of luck and random chance.

[ihenry]

I don't understand why OP has to go this far to defend his perfectly legit original post. Maybe this fact in itself is revealing how stubborn this community, with the possibility of being unduly represented by a small number of posters, is or has become.

Is T14 necessarily a wise financial decision? No. Does it mean you are guaranteed a well-paying (by TLS standards) gig? No. Does it even signal your highest level of personal accomplishment? No. Definitely not. But none of these is necessary for someone to be congratulated. You congratulate on a baby's birth, but that baby may turn out to be a beggar, a criminal, or even terrorist. The thing is no one is able to know the end outcome, needless to say subject happiness in the course throughout. Is landing big law jobs congratulations-worthy? By some people's standards, no because chances are you will leave a few years later, a huge portion of your income goes to tax/debt/incredibly high living cost, it's soul-sucking, etc. This chain of logic can go really far and lead to absurd consequences, if you do not understand every accomplishment along the way is by itself remarkable.

There seems to be a reason why people in certain professions are suffering from highest anxiety rates. Seriously.

[chuckbass]

This thread is really going places

[ihenry]

I'm hugely grateful for TLS. I don't think it's too pessimistic at all. I think it's the counterbalance to people's optimistic bias.

That being said, if people on this site can't take in the advice, examine it, apply it to their own situation, and then make their own decision...they have a lot of growing to do. I ask for advice, because I want to hear what other people with their own experiences think. I'm in no way bound by it, but I make a smarter decision by at least acknowledging and considering other opinions/thoughts.

But the OP was trying to be nice. Sure, maybe you can debate how great of an accomplishment getting into the T14 is, but either way I know I'm happy to be done with apps. The post wasn't as offensive as some people seem to be taking it. There are far more offensive things in the lounge.

The original post is not offensive.

How OP is treated (by some) is offensive.

[180kickflip]

I think the response to OP is a bit harsh. His original post didn't call out any TLSers specifically, and I don't think the intention was to downplay the contributions of the posters that were mentioned later. OP's first post specifically said that a lot of the "retake" type advise (that is often offered by the posters mentioned) is probably right. I took that as him recognizing the value of reality-based commentary, and that IMO made the rest of the post come off pretty well.

All he's doing is taking a second to congratulate some law school hopefuls on getting into some of the best schools. Since law school admission is so heavily based on GPA/LSAT, I don't think congratulating someone on a t14 acceptance is too far removed from congratulating them on maintaining a high GPA and scoring well on the LSAT. I think most people can agree that those things are somewhat worth recognizing (as are well written statements, etc).

Yes, there are other places on TLS where people offer congratulations, but I don't see why those have to be the only places for them. When people ask if they should go to schools they absolutely should not or if they should take out more debt than they will easily repay in the future, I love that the TLS hive mind kicks in to drag them back to good sense, but I don't think this was one of those times.

OP wasn't saying being a lawyer is fun. He didn't say biglaw is a good long term goal or t14 admission guaranteed any positive outcome. He just said "good job," and that doesn't deserve a negative or sarcastic response

The thing is that if you have a pulse, a brain, and a BA, chances are you are getting into at least one T14. That doesn't mean much at all. What determines success is: your scholarships, the classes and internships you take, the clubs you join, and huge buttloads of luck and random chance.

That's definitely one way of looking at it, and I think the academic achievements of many of the posters on this board makes it seem that simple, but I also think most people with t14 acceptances earned them by scoring above the 95th percentile on a pretty difficult test and maintaining a near A average in all of their college courses. We've all got more achievements in front of us, but it's still good to acknowledge that a lot has been done to get us to the point where we even have scholarships and internships as options.

[twenty]

Not interested in joining a pile-on (and most of the things worth saying have already been said), but I don't think OP's characterization of the TLS hivemind - particularly in respect to its abrasive hostility is entirely fair. Most of the hostility comes out against belligerent 0L reverse splitters that are trying to choose between University of Vermont and Arizona State for practicing environmental law in California; pls don't tell me to retake because I took that test once and it was awful!!11. There's a lot less hostility towards people that just genuinely don't know and are at least open to the possibility that their currently law school options are terrible. In short, the hivemind is pretty reactionary and gives about as good as it gets.

But none of these is necessary for someone to be congratulated. You congratulate on a baby's birth, but that baby may turn out to be a beggar, a criminal, or even terrorist.

The analogy doesn't quite work. Someone else already mentioned this already, but if you want attaboys, tell literally anyone else not on TLS that you got into law school. Successfully bringing a baby into the world doesn't require a huge follow-up life decision involving hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I guess my reaction is that, again, most people who get the reactions complained about are usually asking TLS what they should do. I don't get why congratulating them on their achievements is required in those threads when it's irrelevant to answering their question, and there are plenty of places where congratulations do occur.

I know I have spent a lot of time here, and become hugely acclimated, so while I know it can be a bit of a culture shock on first encounter, it's easy to forget that. I just feel like telling TLS they're not sufficiently positive about people's acceptances to the T14 both treats those applicants like fragile snowflakes who need to be patted on the back when they're in some tiny top percentage of applicants, and is frankly kind of elitist.

And I guess I'm paying this much attention to the OP because it felt like it was intended to make a point about TLS.

[ihenry]

The analogy doesn't quite work. Someone else already mentioned this already, but if you want attaboys, tell literally anyone else not on TLS that you got into law school. Successfully bringing a baby into the world doesn't require a huge follow-up life decision involving hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt.

1. Every major event/decision requires some kinds of commitment and cost, be it money, time, or potential loss of opportunities. 2. There is indeed non-negligible possibility that people will pay debt back and make good living, especially given in a T14 school. The thing is you never know the end result and subjective happiness, etc.

So my point is that people can and should be advised, but should not be deprived of the right to be congratulated after a decent achievement.

[A. Nony Mouse]

What on earth is the right to be congratulated? Why does anyone have a right to have others congratulate them on anything?

[cotiger]

I swear the purpose of tls is to consciously or unconsciously thin the herd. You guys and gals should recognize the potential of a community like this. Tls should/could actualize reform, not just bitch about aba regs or deject driven, (mostly) capable people from behind your computer monitor.

I've learned a great amount from tls, and appreciate every bit of it, but I'm on board with the direction op is headed. I'm greatful to pick out bits of very intelligent and relevant information, but there is SO much more that can be accomplished here. "Retake or don't go" is fucking lazy.

And that's a problem because... ?

I, for one, am super stoked about TLS helping to thin me from the herd.

[baal hadad]

What on earth is the right to be congratulated? Why does anyone have a right to have others congratulate them on anything?

it's part of Kennedy's "right to dignity"

[180kickflip]

What on earth is the right to be congratulated? Why does anyone have a right to have others congratulate them on anything?

Maybe not a "right", but just the idea that if someone chooses to congratulate someone for a positive achievement, its sort of rude/demeaning (maybe not the right words, but I think they convey the feeling I intend) to push that aside and say there's nothing to congratulate.

I mean..If I'm in class, and a teacher tells another student he did a good job on something that I don't really think is all that impressive, I'm not going to say that aloud. I'm going to respect/recognize the good intentions of the person who gave the compliment, and if it didn't hurt anybody and may have lifted the spirits of the student who was complimented, I'm going to just let it go.

I feel like that's one way for a community to build it's strength, and I think the response to OP could have been more along those lines.

[twenty]

1. Every major event/decision requires some kinds of commitment and cost, be it money, time, or potential loss of opportunities.

No, the idea is that you don't insincerely tug someone who's on the cusp of making a really big decision. There are really only two reasons why you'd be showing off your stats/acceptances on TLS: you're looking for sincere and honest (possibly lolol depending on the person) advice about your law school prospects, or you're bragging. There's a massive difference between posting on Facebook "Hey, I got a new car everyone!" and getting 'likes' from grandma, and posting "Should I get a Lexus IS or BMW i3" on a car forum and expecting to be congratulated by strangers on having so much money.

2. There is indeed non-negligible possibility that people will pay debt back and make good living, especially given in a T14 school. The thing is you never know the end result and subjective happiness, etc.

I don't understand the relevance here, barring the strong possibility that this doesn't actually happen.

but should not be deprived of the right to be congratulated

[shump92]

The thing is that if you have a pulse, a brain, and a BA, chances are you are getting into at least one T14. That doesn't mean much at all.

This kind of stuff is the problem. Plenty of people fit those three criteria and do not get into T14 schools. TLS is very elitist a lot of the time. Some smart people might not have had the chance to attend a great UG because their parents couldn't afford out of state costs and tests like the LSAT tend to favor students from certain types of backgrounds. I admit that some of the criticism of OP seems fair, but getting into the T14 is still an accomplishment. That doesn't necessarily mean it would always be a smart decision to go or that all of the realist views expressed here are wrong. But sometimes consistent posters could just hold their tongue a bit more. No idea why bashing of the OP was really necessary.

Application cycles suck and are random a lot of the time. I got into a top UG from high school but didn't get into several lower ranked ( than where I went) schools. Doesn't mean I lacked a pulse, brain, or high school diploma. I just didn't have a perfect cycle. To sum, the automatic decisions to express pessimistic views are at times over the top. And I'll be the first to admit that sometimes I probably claim an air of authority that I can only defend from a second-hand basis.

[Elston Gunn]

The thing is that if you have a pulse, a brain, and a BA, chances are you are getting into at least one T14. T

what?