WVU vs. Maine Forum

TheSpanishMain · Post by **TheSpanishMain** » Thu Jul 23, 2015 12:59 pm

ms2dai wrote: You are wrong for that PoopNpants.

Everyone needs an option and those are the two I am dealing with...

You actually have four options, you know. Option 3: retake the LSAT. Option 4: Forget about law school and do something else with your life. Both of those options are better than attending a random regional school at sticker in an area to which you have no ties.

Don't fall into the trap of assuming you MUST pick between two bad choices. That's never true.

ms2dai · Post by **ms2dai** » Thu Jul 23, 2015 12:59 pm

basedvulpes wrote:
ms2dai wrote:
basedvulpes wrote:
foregetaboutdre wrote:It's going to pain me to say this because I think it should be a given/a rule if you are attending a regional to be FROM that regional or a state over to establish ties....so first where are you from and think about that law school.
+1, why not go to a comparable school in place you actually have ties? Still might be an uphill battle, but it will make things easier.
I have no ties anywhere. It will be something to overcome no matter where I go.
This makes no sense to me. If you went to college somewhere or have lived in a city for even a year or two you certainly have more ties than you do to a place where you'll be moving to just for law school.

I grew up and live in Maine and, while I'm not super familiar with the ins and outs of our legal market, I can say that Maine is a very, very insular place. I'm not confident that anyone will trust you enough to give you a job just because you enrolled in our TTT school.

I'm always weary of people who say things can't happen. Proved that wrong too many times. Thanks for your feedback though about Maine. I'll respectively disagree. Will you be attending in the Fall? May end up seeing you there:-)

urbanist11 · Post by **urbanist11** » Thu Jul 23, 2015 12:59 pm

Post removed.

shump92 · Post by **shump92** » Thu Jul 23, 2015 1:02 pm

TheSpanishMain wrote:
ms2dai wrote: You are wrong for that PoopNpants.

Everyone needs an option and those are the two I am dealing with...
You actually have four options, you know. Option 3: retake the LSAT. Option 4: Forget about law school and do something else with your life. Both of those options are better than attending a random regional school at sticker in an area to which you have no ties.

Don't fall into the trap of assuming you MUST pick between two bad choices. That's never true.

+1

It's your life so do what you want to, but know that most of TLS warned you against this. Even the posters like me who do not automatically say retake/reapply for T14. Without scholarships or ties these options make little (or no) sense.

ms2dai · Post by **ms2dai** » Thu Jul 23, 2015 1:03 pm

TheSpanishMain wrote:
ms2dai wrote: You are wrong for that PoopNpants.

Everyone needs an option and those are the two I am dealing with...
You actually have four options, you know. Option 3: retake the LSAT. Option 4: Forget about law school and do something else with your life. Both of those options are better than attending a random regional school at sticker in an area to which you have no ties.

Don't fall into the trap of assuming you MUST pick between two bad choices. That's never true.

So most of what I'm hearing is that if it isn't T14 then there are no other employed lawyers in all of the U.S.??? There are talented people at every school. I understand what everyone is saying about the regional school but out of over 200+ law schools how many actually have a national reach.

shump92 · Post by **shump92** » Thu Jul 23, 2015 1:07 pm

ms2dai wrote:
TheSpanishMain wrote:
ms2dai wrote: You are wrong for that PoopNpants.

Everyone needs an option and those are the two I am dealing with...
You actually have four options, you know. Option 3: retake the LSAT. Option 4: Forget about law school and do something else with your life. Both of those options are better than attending a random regional school at sticker in an area to which you have no ties.

Don't fall into the trap of assuming you MUST pick between two bad choices. That's never true.
So most of what I'm hearing is that if it isn't T14 then there are no other employed lawyers in all of the U.S.??? There are talented people at every school. I understand what everyone is saying about the regional school but out of over 200+ law schools how many actually have a national reach.

14. Another 16 or so have decent regional reach. I.e. Vandy throughout the South. This is why TCR is to retake/reapply unless you have partial funding for a T30 in a region you like.

basedvulpes · Post by **basedvulpes** » Thu Jul 23, 2015 1:09 pm

Post removed.

ms2dai · Post by **ms2dai** » Thu Jul 23, 2015 1:11 pm

pancakes3 wrote:
PoopNpants wrote:My bad, I'm just a little suspicious. A username called "WVUmountaineer" just happens to join TLS at this exact moment and makes his first post on a WVU-related forum, a school which is rarely discussed on this website, and makes a very persuasive spiel about attending WVU. seems like too much a coincidence tbh
I think it's just a lurker. However, I do think it's a bad post with worse timing bc it gives the OP the sliver of confirmation bias that cements her decision to go to WVU despite upwards of a dozen posters telling her not to.

It's all information. I'm taking everything with a grain of salt.

stego · Post by **stego** » Thu Jul 23, 2015 1:12 pm

ms2dai wrote:
TheSpanishMain wrote:
ms2dai wrote: You are wrong for that PoopNpants.

Everyone needs an option and those are the two I am dealing with...
You actually have four options, you know. Option 3: retake the LSAT. Option 4: Forget about law school and do something else with your life. Both of those options are better than attending a random regional school at sticker in an area to which you have no ties.

Don't fall into the trap of assuming you MUST pick between two bad choices. That's never true.
So most of what I'm hearing is that if it isn't T14 then there are no other employed lawyers in all of the U.S.??? There are talented people at every school. I understand what everyone is saying about the regional school but out of over 200+ law schools how many actually have a national reach.

No, you're misunderstanding. People are saying that a school like Maine or WVU is too much debt and too risky at sticker price, based on the sorts of jobs typically available to grads of those schools and the likelihood of getting those jobs.

People on TLS often advocate going to a strong regional law school with a full ride or close to it. WVU and Maine are not considered strong regionals, and you don't have ties to those regions anyway.

No one is saying a good outcome is impossible or can't happen, but you shouldn't base your future on that happening when going to one of these schools makes it much less likely.

ms2dai · Post by **ms2dai** » Thu Jul 23, 2015 1:12 pm

basedvulpes wrote:
ms2dai wrote:I'm always weary of people who say things can't happen. Proved that wrong too many times. Thanks for your feedback though about Maine. I'll respectively disagree. Will you be attending in the Fall? May end up seeing you there:-)
Don't take this too personally, but I would rather not be a lawyer than go to Maine.

Wow that is deep...

TheSpanishMain · Post by **TheSpanishMain** » Thu Jul 23, 2015 1:15 pm

ms2dai wrote:
TheSpanishMain wrote:
ms2dai wrote: You are wrong for that PoopNpants.

Everyone needs an option and those are the two I am dealing with...
You actually have four options, you know. Option 3: retake the LSAT. Option 4: Forget about law school and do something else with your life. Both of those options are better than attending a random regional school at sticker in an area to which you have no ties.

Don't fall into the trap of assuming you MUST pick between two bad choices. That's never true.
So most of what I'm hearing is that if it isn't T14 then there are no other employed lawyers in all of the U.S.??? There are talented people at every school. I understand what everyone is saying about the regional school but out of over 200+ law schools how many actually have a national reach.

Of course no one is saying that outside the T14 no one ever gets a job. There are some great schools outside the T14. Look at UT, Vanderbilt, UCLA, etc. Even at crappy schools, people get lucky all the time. The thing is, do you really want to bet $250,000 on getting lucky? Do you understand how much money that is?

I'm actually perfectly willing to believe the WVU guy's thoughts on the place. I'm sure it's not a bad school per se, for the right person. That person should be a WVU native with a burning desire to stay in WVU, and he/she should be attending for free/close to free. None of those apply to you.

wvumountaineer · Post by **wvumountaineer** » Thu Jul 23, 2015 1:28 pm

TheSpanishMain wrote:
ms2dai wrote:
TheSpanishMain wrote:
ms2dai wrote: You are wrong for that PoopNpants.

Everyone needs an option and those are the two I am dealing with...
You actually have four options, you know. Option 3: retake the LSAT. Option 4: Forget about law school and do something else with your life. Both of those options are better than attending a random regional school at sticker in an area to which you have no ties.

Don't fall into the trap of assuming you MUST pick between two bad choices. That's never true.
So most of what I'm hearing is that if it isn't T14 then there are no other employed lawyers in all of the U.S.??? There are talented people at every school. I understand what everyone is saying about the regional school but out of over 200+ law schools how many actually have a national reach.
Of course no one is saying that outside the T14 no one ever gets a job. There are some great schools outside the T14. Look at UT, Vanderbilt, UCLA, etc. Even at crappy schools, people get lucky all the time. The thing is, do you really want to bet $250,000 on getting lucky? Do you understand how much money that is?

I'm actually perfectly willing to believe the WVU guy's thoughts on the place. I'm sure it's not a bad school per se, for the right person. That person should be a WVU native with a burning desire to stay in WVU, and he/she should be attending for free/close to free. None of those apply to you.

I think that's fair. Like I said, I'm somewhat biased -- I got a lot of scholarship money, and it seems to be easier for in-state students than out-of-state students to pull scholarships. And, there's a massive tuition disparity between in-state and out-of-state students at WVU too. I graduated with under 50k in loans including undergrad, which is pretty rare for law school.

To the above poster -- my point was that the ABA gets the employment statistics directly from law schools, and law schools get their information directly from student employment surveys. If students aren't responding to the surveys -- which, seemed to be the case last summer -- the statistics are questionable. I'm not sure how the ABA arrived at that, considering the fact we were getting a lot of e-mails from Career Services last summer with the list of students who hadn't responded, and there were quite a few students on the list that never responded as far as I know.

Even assuming that's accurate at 2 unknown, we're somewhere around 60-61% employed for jd required jobs, which also doesn't factor in those who choose to take jd-preferred jobs that COULD take a jd-required job but choose not to because the expected $60k salary is insufficient. This happens a lot, especially, with people that take out 100k-200k in loans and therefore can't really make it on a starting salary of 60k. The starting salary can be low, sure, but it's pretty common for the salary to go up quickly as long as you can live off 60k for a few years. Even a lot of small town attorneys in WV make 80k-100k easily which goes a long way here.

callmekimba · Post by **callmekimba** » Thu Jul 23, 2015 1:43 pm

As I sit here crying like Oprah into my lean cuisine...can you at least read my super depressing post about why your plan is such a terrible idea so you don't end up like me?

I'm on my phone or I would link to it. You sound like I did. And I cry myself to sleep pretty much every night.

callmekimba · Post by **callmekimba** » Thu Jul 23, 2015 1:46 pm

For the love of God, op, listen to these people.

shump92 · Post by **shump92** » Thu Jul 23, 2015 1:46 pm

OP I don't know if you had looked at many threads on here before, but if you had the overwhelming sentiment against either school should have been expected. None of us know you so we are not biased to give you positive responses. By any standard for being risk averse, these are not smart choices over the plausible alternative of delaying/forgoing law school. Plenty of T14 students regret the debt they end up taking on and they are at schools that open many more doors than WVU or Maine would. Not saying that is a good (or even correct) outcome, but that is how employment works here. Prestige matters and your options are not schools that have prestige.

If there is any chance that you would not want to become a lawyer, committing to law school this year is a terrible decision. You should easily be able to have these same options next year and hopefully better. If there is any chance that you would not want to live in either of these states long-term, you are pigeon-holing yourself pretty deep. Did you really max out your prep for the LSAT? I'm sure plenty of the posters here who got 165+ on test day are not "natural test takers". A lot of them did much better than me in my only try so far even though I basically had a starting point of 164. My prep was minimal, but that is a different story. If I end up having bad options or sticker, I am planning on spending the time to approach the LSAT like most top scorers do to get into my actual range for score ability.

At the end of the day, it doesn't make any difference to the many people who have tried to dissuade you if you are as stubborn as a mule. If you want to keep holding out for a compelling minority view saying you are making a good decision to commit to law school next year, that is your prerogative. Just know that at most non-prestigious law schools, at least 80% of the student body thinks that they will be among that top 5, 10, or 20 percent of the class that have the better employment outcomes. All of the posters bashing on these schools are trying to help you be as aware as possible of the crapshoot you seem to be committed to entering. If you ignore the overwhelming advice you have gotten, which is fairly close to objective, good luck.

Traynor Brah · Post by **Traynor Brah** » Thu Jul 23, 2015 1:51 pm

Traynor Brah wrote: hey kid it's your funeral.

lavarman84 · Post by **lavarman84** » Thu Jul 23, 2015 1:58 pm

ms2dai wrote:
TheSpanishMain wrote:
ms2dai wrote: You are wrong for that PoopNpants.

Everyone needs an option and those are the two I am dealing with...
You actually have four options, you know. Option 3: retake the LSAT. Option 4: Forget about law school and do something else with your life. Both of those options are better than attending a random regional school at sticker in an area to which you have no ties.

Don't fall into the trap of assuming you MUST pick between two bad choices. That's never true.
So most of what I'm hearing is that if it isn't T14 then there are no other employed lawyers in all of the U.S.??? There are talented people at every school. I understand what everyone is saying about the regional school but out of over 200+ law schools how many actually have a national reach.

No. What you're hearing is that this has the potential to be a bad decision. There's a possibility that it pays off but the risk far outweighs the reward. People aren't telling you go to the t14 or don't go to LS. They're telling you to retake the LSAT so you get more money and to go to regional school in an area where you have ties/a network.

basedvulpes · Post by **basedvulpes** » Thu Jul 23, 2015 2:09 pm

Post removed.

PoopNpants · Post by **PoopNpants** » Thu Jul 23, 2015 4:23 pm

Why don't you just re-take the LSAT if your so set on being a lawyer? I know I know it's the cliche TLS advice but seriously signing up for a $170 test vs. investing a couple hundred thou for less than a coin flips chance of practicing law should really be a no brainer. Did you max out on takes or something?

Hornet2011 · Post by **Hornet2011** » Thu Jul 23, 2015 5:18 pm

Ok OP, I know this post is likely in vain, but I actually have a buddy who studied pretty hard and on his second (maybe 3rd?) try maxed out for him his LSAT at 155 and I think he had a 3.4 GPA if I recall correctly. He went to Maine with some scholarship money and coincidentally was also from the general area you are with no ties.

He placed in the top of his class (I want to say top 10 or 15%) and was fortunate enough to make connections. He is now working as a prosecutor in Maine -- no idea, but my guess is pulling in 40s to low 60s. I wouldn't say he "regrets" his decision, but he had expressed to me he might have done things differently. This is likely your best case scenario. Being indebted for the rest of your life is a more likely outcome. I realize the LSAT is tough, but with some more truly dedicated practice better scores are easily obtainable. Again my friend was scoring in the low 40s when he started his prep. What is your LSAT score? I never saw it disclosed anywhere. Frankly, and this is just my personal opinion and is not meant to be a derogatory remark, if you can't score at least a 155 or so, you probably have no business going to law school. Period. Without that level of test taking ability I think there are serious concerns whether you will be able to pass the bar.

My recommendation -- sit this one out. Really really apply yourself. The type of school your trying to get into, and again this is not a dig, will take a December or even a February test score if your not ready for October. A 155-158 will get you scholarship money. Apply to schools like Marquette (you don't have to pass the bar to practice in WI) or Michigan State which has a generous scholarship program.

ms2dai · Post by **ms2dai** » Sun Jul 26, 2015 8:51 pm

PoopNpants wrote:Why don't you just re-take the LSAT if your so set on being a lawyer? I know I know it's the cliche TLS advice but seriously signing up for a $170 test vs. investing a couple hundred thou for less than a coin flips chance of practicing law should really be a no brainer. Did you max out on takes or something?

No I didn't max out on takes but I already have things lined up to go somewhere. Time to start the journey...

lavarman84 · Post by **lavarman84** » Sun Jul 26, 2015 8:58 pm

ms2dai wrote:
PoopNpants wrote:Why don't you just re-take the LSAT if your so set on being a lawyer? I know I know it's the cliche TLS advice but seriously signing up for a $170 test vs. investing a couple hundred thou for less than a coin flips chance of practicing law should really be a no brainer. Did you max out on takes or something?
No I didn't max out on takes but I already have things lined up to go somewhere. Time to start the journey...

That's a really bad justification.

ms2dai · Post by **ms2dai** » Sun Jul 26, 2015 9:13 pm

Hornet2011 wrote:Ok OP, I know this post is likely in vain, but I actually have a buddy who studied pretty hard and on his second (maybe 3rd?) try maxed out for him his LSAT at 155 and I think he had a 3.4 GPA if I recall correctly. He went to Maine with some scholarship money and coincidentally was also from the general area you are with no ties.

He placed in the top of his class (I want to say top 10 or 15%) and was fortunate enough to make connections. He is now working as a prosecutor in Maine -- no idea, but my guess is pulling in 40s to low 60s. I wouldn't say he "regrets" his decision, but he had expressed to me he might have done things differently. This is likely your best case scenario. Being indebted for the rest of your life is a more likely outcome. I realize the LSAT is tough, but with some more truly dedicated practice better scores are easily obtainable. Again my friend was scoring in the low 40s when he started his prep. What is your LSAT score? I never saw it disclosed anywhere. Frankly, and this is just my personal opinion and is not meant to be a derogatory remark, if you can't score at least a 155 or so, you probably have no business going to law school. Period. Without that level of test taking ability I think there are serious concerns whether you will be able to pass the bar.

My recommendation -- sit this one out. Really really apply yourself. The type of school your trying to get into, and again this is not a dig, will take a December or even a February test score if your not ready for October. A 155-158 will get you scholarship money. Apply to schools like Marquette (you don't have to pass the bar to practice in WI) or Michigan State which has a generous scholarship program.

Thanks for the advice. I really appreciate it. Lots to think about.

ms2dai · Post by **ms2dai** » Sun Jul 26, 2015 9:16 pm

lawman84 wrote:
ms2dai wrote:
PoopNpants wrote:Why don't you just re-take the LSAT if your so set on being a lawyer? I know I know it's the cliche TLS advice but seriously signing up for a $170 test vs. investing a couple hundred thou for less than a coin flips chance of practicing law should really be a no brainer. Did you max out on takes or something?
No I didn't max out on takes but I already have things lined up to go somewhere. Time to start the journey...
That's a really bad justification.

Yeah there's more to it but that is the concise version -- definitely not the whole "justification." It's time to start on the path to my legal career. Although it seems optimistic I believe everything will work itself out. I've seen people at unranked schools make it out ok and although I don't know all the details of their situation they are doing well.

BigZuck · Post by **BigZuck** » Sun Jul 26, 2015 9:20 pm

ms2dai wrote:
lawman84 wrote:
ms2dai wrote:
PoopNpants wrote:Why don't you just re-take the LSAT if your so set on being a lawyer? I know I know it's the cliche TLS advice but seriously signing up for a $170 test vs. investing a couple hundred thou for less than a coin flips chance of practicing law should really be a no brainer. Did you max out on takes or something?
No I didn't max out on takes but I already have things lined up to go somewhere. Time to start the journey...
That's a really bad justification.
Yeah there's more to it but that is the concise version -- definitely not the whole "justification." It's time to start on the path to my legal career. Although it seems optimistic I believe everything will work itself out. I've seen people at unranked schools make it out ok and although I don't know all the details of their situation they are doing well.

That's just a really poor basis to make such a huge life decision.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias