How far down the ladder does LS at sticker become an objectively bad decision? Forum

[runinthefront]

CCN at sticker = a person with a fairly high GPA or a fairly high LSAT. Even with a poli sci degree, a 3.7+ will land you a decent gig if you hustle. 30-40k out of college ain't bad assuming no loans, and if you have loans it's still not too bad if you can live at home.

Assuming your GPA is shit, your LSAT would probably have to be around 171+ and that's enough to get into almost any state's flagship with $ or instate tuition. CCN at sticker just isn't defensible absent a burning desire to work BigFed or academia

[03152016]

it's a bad question to begin with
op is asking us to generalize, but choosing a ls (and anticipating ROI) is inherently situation specific

[Nomo]

When I graduated from college in 2008 it seemed impossible for a liberal arts major from a no-name school to get a decent job. But seven years later I'm amazed at how many of these people found their way into good jobs, with middle class salaries, and real promotion potential. Its OK to get stuck in what looks like a dead end job after undergrad. If you are smart enough to get a 160 on the LSAT, and hard working enough to get through law school, then you're probably going to find your way.

Yale at sticker is going to cost around 280k. That's over 3k/month on a 10 year plan, and over 2k/month on a 20 year plan. Yale might open up a lot of doors for you, but that debt is going to close a lot of doors too. I wouldn't do it. (Yale used to have a particularly good LRAP plan. It wasn't attached to IBR. And it would cover your loans no matter what job you took - even non-professional jobs. If that's still the case then Yale might be defensible.)

[FullRamboLSGrad]

Debt sucks, but some people have such a short term outlook that it's T14 or bust. As someone earlier suggested, what if you did liberal as a UG? What are you going to do with that? Work the register at best buy?

Law school is a huge risk, but it's better to swing for the fences and miss than to be in the position you are currently in.

Now, I wouldn't advocate sticker at a terrible school, not every situation is the same, but sticker at some schools isn't a terrible decision under certain circumstances.

Some of the better state schools have some great deals for in state tuition as well.

I've seen between 14k-30k.

Now I wouldn't go over that number but if you could get into a strong state school in a targeted market and walk out with <90k you should be alright. Some good state schools place ~30% into government jobs that qualify for tuition reimbursements, then maybe 15% in biglaw 10% in midlaw. These are reasonable options.

[star fox]

Sticker anywhere doesnt make sense these days.

[A. Nony Mouse]

When I graduated from college in 2008 it seemed impossible for a liberal arts major from a no-name school to get a decent job. But seven years later I'm amazed at how many of these people found their way into good jobs, with middle class salaries, and real promotion potential. Its OK to get stuck in what looks like a dead end job after undergrad. If you are smart enough to get a 160 on the LSAT, and hard working enough to get through law school, then you're probably going to find your way.

EXACTLY. The thing that frustrates me about framing this question as "liberal arts major, must go to law school, only other option is cashier" is the assumption that the job you get immediately after graduation defines you forever. Liberal arts majors are not stuck with law school as their only option, even if, yes, the jobs you can get straight out are crappy. People work crappy jobs, develop skills, learn about what's out there, and develop a career path. You don't need to jump onto the predefined path of law school to end up in a decent place. No, you're probably not going to be making $160k at 25. But if that's the only way you can define a successful career you're thinking way too narrowly.

(I realize some of this sounds kind of bootstraps/boomer-y, but seriously, the vast majority of people don't walk into great jobs that they'll do for the rest of their life coming out of undergrad. That's not a problem; you don't need law school to "fix" that situation. You need to work and learn how to do shit and get to know people/industries.)

Having said that, I should say I'm not saying no one should ever go to law school K-JD - just that they shouldn't do so only because they think that's the only way they can get a decent job. (That's also a great recipe for feeling trapped if you end up in law but hate it.)

[Moneytrees]

Couple of points I'd like to make:

1. You absolutely should not feel the need to go to law school just because you have a humanities majors. If you have a good GPA, there are many companies out there that will be willing to train you. Even if you start out with a relatively low salary, if you put your head down and show some interest in whatever you're doing, chances are you'll get steady raises and at the very least won't be in a terrible place. That may not be the most inspiring thing to say, but keep in mind that the majority of law school grads graduate with a load of debt working jobs they don't particularly enjoy (if they find a job at all).

2. That being said, if you do go to law school, and keep debt low, your situation probably isn't as dire as some people on TLS put it. The key is to minimize debt. In most major markets, there are a fair number of jobs that pay between 50k and 75k. I work in NYC as a paralegal and I've seen a few attorneys leave my firm for jobs that pay in that range. It's certainly not a great salary (especially in NYC), but I'm not sure why people keep stating that shitlaw salaries pay 30k. Though I have heard of jobs that pay sub-50, that figure is not common for attorneys and would be considered insulting to most lawyers in major markets.

Just my 2 cents.

[jetsfan1]

it's a bad question to begin with
op is asking us to generalize, but choosing a ls (and anticipating ROI) is inherently situation specific

Fair. Let me rephrase. In your current situation, where is the lowest you'd pay sticker at.

[skers]

Sticker is dumb anywhere.

[Johann]

Someone mentioned 50k not being bad. They're right//50k in NYC as a 20 something year old working 40 or even 45-50 hours a week is better than most people have it. But most professionals making 50k aren't on call 24/7, billing 2500+ with a quarter million dollars of debt and an important mid year review coming up.

I don't think I would ever take CCN at sticker. I would take my state flagship at sticker over CCN, actually. Going less than 100k in debt for decent odds at a decent job with billing decent hours vs 300k in debt for a decent job with a miserable hours requirement in a high CoL city?

I'm picking the former

I am more jealous of the TTT grads who took out sticker loans I know working for non selective government organizations making 80k that will get PSLF in 10 years than the biglaw people at my firm with T14 sticker. The idea of maximizing your chances at biglaw is not worth much in my opinion. Maximizing clerkship chances and bigfed I get though.

THere is also a dude on this board who is set up to be a career clerk for some state court and will eventually make 100k in a low COL place after PSLF rids him of his debt.

[Johann]

Sticker anywhere doesnt make sense these days.

Not for people who have really shit job opportunities. Tough to say someone who makes 30k in a job with no real upward movement could possibly be worse off even doing sticker with PAYE. You're basically in the risk-free gamble at that point.

[jbagelboy]

The idea of maximizing your chances at biglaw is not worth much in my opinion. Maximizing clerkship chances and bigfed I get though.

I don't get this. LRAP plans dont cover clerkships, and they are at most 1-2 year gigs. So you probably accrue more debt via interest than you can pay off during that time. The majority of clerks will return to firms, where they will again be repaying debt. For those subset of clerks that become AUSA's or work for state, they'll quickly blow past their LRAP cap on GS12/13. For those that don't, they are making so little for so long that it comes out pretty similar to making repayments from a personal finance perspective.

Those students that lock down fed clerkship with certain coveted judges will have career options worth a lot of investment, and could probably find a fulfilling LRAP-eligible career (or pay off $300k in one swoop with a SCOTUS bonus in returning to private sector). But the number of folks in that position even from very top schools is extremely limited. Even Harvard students need exemplary grades to pull this off, beating out 90%+ of their class.

I think Yale being the only school where loaning sticker is a truly rational, positive proposition is actually a pretty solid rubric.

Of course, none of this matters if #richparents, which most students at top schools have anyway.

[FloridaCoastalorbust]

Sticker could be defensible for Cooley and also indefensible for Yale. In my case at or near sticker for T14 was defensible but I took low T14 for free over CCN with dat big debt because I should be able to get rich/jump start family/enter dream job sector faster that way.

[UnicornHunter]

If it makes sense to pay sticker for YSH, then it makes sense to pay sticker for CCN. You're really not taking on much more risk. The same probably holds true for Penn and a couple other schools too.

That being said, I don't think it makes sense to pays sticker for law school. Maybe Yale given its rather unique repayment scheme.

[star fox]

Being a humanities major is dumb. Doubling down by paying sticker for law school isn't wise though.

[Johann]

The idea of maximizing your chances at biglaw is not worth much in my opinion. Maximizing clerkship chances and bigfed I get though.

I don't get this. LRAP plans dont cover clerkships, and they are at most 1-2 year gigs. So you probably accrue more debt via interest than you can pay off during that time. The majority of clerks will return to firms, where they will again be repaying debt. For those subset of clerks that become AUSA's or work for state, they'll quickly blow past their LRAP cap on GS12/13. For those that don't, they are making so little for so long that it comes out pretty similar to making repayments from a personal finance perspective.

Those students that lock down fed clerkship with certain coveted judges will have career options worth a lot of investment, and could probably find a fulfilling LRAP-eligible career (or pay off $300k in one swoop with a SCOTUS bonus in returning to private sector). But the number of folks in that position even from very top schools is extremely limited. Even Harvard students need exemplary grades to pull this off, beating out 90%+ of their class.

I think Yale being the only school where loaning sticker is a truly rational, positive proposition is actually a pretty solid rubric.

Of course, none of this matters if #richparents, which most students at top schools have anyway.

I don't care about lrap. If they aren't pslf eligible I take it back, but the thought of working 35 hour weeks with vacation built in that doesn't bother you while on vacation is pretty awesome. Debt gone in 10 years wiped clean which is really not that much longer than people who throw 3k of money at their law school loans. Plus getting into a job that basically can't fire you. Big law isn't the worst thing in the world, but I mean when you see how people live with good government jobs that pay at that next bump from states attorneys (people making at least 80k) it's like they get the best of both worlds - money and being able to spend it on doing things in their free time. The fact you don't burn out or feel pressure of up of out is just an added bonus. I would pay sticker for that because it basically really means paying back 100k over 10 years and then getting complete forgiveness.

[star fox]

I thought people did Clerkships because it sets you up nicely for a Lit career.

[star fox]

Of course, none of this matters if #richparents, which most students at top schools have anyway.

It's only a very small number of people whose parents are paying their way through LS.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Of course, none of this matters if #richparents, which most students at top schools have anyway.

It's only a very small number of people whose parents are paying their way through LS.

Yeah, I was going to say, I get there are plenty of rich parents, but "most" seems an overstatement.

[Tiago Splitter]

I think Yale being the only school where loaning sticker is a truly rational, positive proposition is actually a pretty solid rubric.

Of course, none of this matters if #richparents, which most students at top schools have anyway.

Don't understand why Yale and not a few others, as the UnicornHunter said. We're talking about people who actually will have to pay it all back, and a Yale degree isn't gonna help you pay it back any more than a Harvard degree will. And just about anyone in at Yale will have to turn down massive T-14 scholarships to go there.

Agree that people who have family money to fall back on are in a different situation.

[Mack.Hambleton]

Y and S/H outcomes are pretty similar. Also really Y and CCN. Most will be working for firms after anyway, prestigious PI hiring is about the same from H/S.

There's no reason I can see why its worth sticker vs H/S.

[dwil770]

When I graduated from college in 2008 it seemed impossible for a liberal arts major from a no-name school to get a decent job. But seven years later I'm amazed at how many of these people found their way into good jobs, with middle class salaries, and real promotion potential. Its OK to get stuck in what looks like a dead end job after undergrad. If you are smart enough to get a 160 on the LSAT, and hard working enough to get through law school, then you're probably going to find your way.

EXACTLY. The thing that frustrates me about framing this question as "liberal arts major, must go to law school, only other option is cashier" is the assumption that the job you get immediately after graduation defines you forever. Liberal arts majors are not stuck with law school as their only option, even if, yes, the jobs you can get straight out are crappy. People work crappy jobs, develop skills, learn about what's out there, and develop a career path. You don't need to jump onto the predefined path of law school to end up in a decent place. No, you're probably not going to be making $160k at 25. But if that's the only way you can define a successful career you're thinking way too narrowly.

(I realize some of this sounds kind of bootstraps/boomer-y, but seriously, the vast majority of people don't walk into great jobs that they'll do for the rest of their life coming out of undergrad. That's not a problem; you don't need law school to "fix" that situation. You need to work and learn how to do shit and get to know people/industries.)

Having said that, I should say I'm not saying no one should ever go to law school K-JD - just that they shouldn't do so only because they think that's the only way they can get a decent job. (That's also a great recipe for feeling trapped if you end up in law but hate it.)

This sounds like that recent article by that Emory law school prof in I believe the NYT defending law school because even with high debt/no big law, lawyers eventually make it (and have better salary growth than most professions).

[jbagelboy]

Y and S/H outcomes are pretty similar. Also really Y and CCN. Most will be working for firms after anyway, prestigious PI hiring is about the same from H/S.

There's no reason I can see why its worth sticker vs H/S.

As I see it, it's because 1) from yale you can leave law altogether and not worry about your debt payments, which isn't true at any other school, and 2) statistically and anecdotally, you're noticeably less likely to wind up at a firm long term repaying sticker debt than from HS or CCN (for example, Mack says 'most' will be working at firms, but at Y, that's actually not true, whereas it holds for the others). But you're right that maybe it's a silly distinction and it probably doesn't matter much.

Also, how many people on TLS have actually worked as AUSAs or for a federal office in DC? I'm not so quick to assume it's this glorified 35 hour week that Johann and others have alluded to. In SDNY or EDNY, for example, prosecutors work incredibly hard. And if you're on a task force, you may be round the clock away from your family and home. In less busy districts, the us attorneys office might be less demanding, but then there's less room for advancement.

Of course, none of this matters if #richparents, which most students at top schools have anyway.

It's only a very small number of people whose parents are paying their way through LS.

Yeah, I was going to say, I get there are plenty of rich parents, but "most" seems an overstatement.

Yes, I was exaggerating. But not by as much as you might think. Probably a quarter of students at a T6 can have their family float the full bill, but a much larger fraction than that will receive some support, either through parental "loans," parents covering COL, parents providing money for a down payment on a home, or even just the cultural difference between managing student debt as an investment in a family portfolio with a lot of equity, versus just being poor and screwed. The number of times my self-deprecating jokes about my student loan debt have fallen on deaf, westhamptonite ears...

[star fox]

Y and S/H outcomes are pretty similar. Also really Y and CCN. Most will be working for firms after anyway, prestigious PI hiring is about the same from H/S.

There's no reason I can see why its worth sticker vs H/S.

As I see it, it's because 1) from yale you can leave law altogether and not worry about your debt payments, which isn't true at any other school, and 2) statistically and anecdotally, you're noticeably less likely to wind up at a firm long term repaying sticker debt than from HS or CCN (for example, Mack says 'most' will be working at firms, but at Y, that's actually not true, whereas it holds for the others). But you're right that maybe it's a silly distinction and it probably doesn't matter much.

Also, how many people on TLS have actually worked as AUSAs or for a federal office in DC? I'm not so quick to assume it's this glorified 35 hour week that Johann and others have alluded to. In SDNY or EDNY, for example, prosecutors work incredibly hard. And if you're on a task force, you may be round the clock away from your family and home. In less busy districts, the us attorneys office might be less demanding, but then there's less room for advancement.

Of course, none of this matters if #richparents, which most students at top schools have anyway.

It's only a very small number of people whose parents are paying their way through LS.

Yeah, I was going to say, I get there are plenty of rich parents, but "most" seems an overstatement.

Yes, I was exaggerating. But not by as much as you might think. Probably a quarter of students at a T6 can have their family float the full bill, but a much larger fraction than that will receive some support, either through parental "loans," parents covering COL, parents providing money for a down payment on a home, or even just the cultural difference between managing student debt as an investment in a family portfolio with a lot of equity, versus just being poor and screwed. The number of times my self-deprecating jokes about my student loan debt have fallen on deaf, westhamptonite ears...

75% at Columbia have law school debt with average indebtedness at $141K. I guess that's Lower than I would guess. I'm not sure how many people get full rides.

[Clemenceau]

75% at Columbia have law school debt with average indebtedness at $141K. I guess that's Lower than I would guess. I'm not sure how many people get full rides.

13 out of 1250 students last year