Georgetown Forum

[notalobbyist]

This topic should be stickied

[JCougar]

That, after subtracting OCI, even people from a school as good as GT have about a 50/50 shot at landing anything at all.

How is this a useful metric?

It emphasizes how competitive jobs are even for T14 graduates. OCI is really the only easy way to get any job. There's no magical job bank for T14 graduates that strike out at OCI...no one is desperate to hire you. And non-OCI employers care a lot less about grades and more about experience/soft factors. So if you just miss the OCI cut (top 40%, but not top 33%, for example) than you're in the same boat as everyone else...competing on the same job market as all the TTT graduates that, instead of taking some impractical "law and philosophy" seminar, were clerking for some local shitlaw firm their entire 3L year and were already managing their own cases start to finish. Shitlaw firms highly prefer to hire the latter. They don't have time or money to train you...you have to be able to take a case and handle it yourself mostly from day 1. And if you strike out at OCI, even from Georgetown, you'll be scratching and clawing for shitlaw just like everyone else--especially given the Fed and State government budget cuts/hiring freezes.

Some things TLS is unrealistic about. If you get into a decent field, even if you're doing shitlaw for the first two years, it's easier to lateral into Biglaw than people would let on here. But keep in mind, fields like Real Estate, Labor & Employment, Torts, etc. are more conducive to small firms since there are many smaller businesses and individual clients that require these services. Every small local business has employment, property, and potential tort issues--and has individuals that would like to sue them. Corporate Law/M&A exists solely in Biglaw, because it's only Fortune 1000 companies that are doing this on a regular basis. So there's just no shitlaw firms that provide training in this area, and thus no lateral opportunities. But you can lateral into Biglaw positions if you get some shitlaw experience first in these other firms and do a really good job and make a name for yourself.

One thing TLS is not unrealistic about is the non-existence of decent Biglaw fall-back options. Midlaw is an extreme rarity, and government jobs don't exist anymore. Basically every state and city is experiencing budget problems right now, as well as the Fed. In-house positions go almost exclusively to people with at least 5 years of experience. Most of the "corporate" or "government" "positions" you see on LST that schools are claiming as "full-time, long-term" are either unpaid volunteers or people working in non-legal roles that don't require a JD. The rest of the people are slaving away at some fly-by-night shitlaw firm that might just decide one day that it doesn't have the money to pay you--and even if it does pay you, it will not cover the interest accruing on your loans. This goes for people who struck out at OCI both at TTTs and the T14.

[JCougar]

And BTW, an unpaid volunteer doesn't count toward your public interest IBR, even if you are volunteering full-time in public interest work, since you are not a "full time employee." To get a government or public interest job these days, it takes months and sometimes a year or two of unpaid volunteering. I know some people that have volunteered for a year and a half before they found full-time positions. But you are not allowed to make $0 monthly payments toward public interest IBR during this time...so your 10-year clock will not start until well after you graduate...and after another $10-$20K of interest has accrued on your loans.

Also, unless you are an Article III judicial clerk, a lot of judicial clerkships these days are unpaid as well. Judges are innundated with thousands of resumes from desperate law grads, but their budget to hire clerks has likely been cut. These unpaid clerkships count as "full-time, long-term, JD required" under the LST stats (just like other "government" jobs). They're usually not bad to have on your resume, but it's another year of poverty and $20K of interest added to your school debt.

I really wish someone would do an investigation of what percentage of "full-time, long-term, JD required" jobs from LST are completely unpaid. Some of these are measured as "school-funded" positions, but some schools don't have the funds to give these people stipends. Therefore, they won't show up on LST as "school-funded," but they will still be counted as FTLT JD-required jobs. My guess is that at least 25% of non-OCI jobs are unpaid.

[BigZuck]

Who sent up the Batsignal and summoned Brucewaynecougar?

I'm all about being conservative when it comes to making big decisions re: law school but come on.

[JCougar]

Who sent up the Batsignal and summoned Brucewaynecougar?

I'm all about being conservative when it comes to making big decisions re: law school but come on.

And guess who knows far more about the legal job market than BigZuck?

You guessed it. It's JCougar. Aren't you a 1L or something?

[A. Nony Mouse]

What are these "lots of" unpaid clerkships? A lot of state clerkships pay crap, but I haven't heard of a plethora of entirely unpaid positions.

[JCougar]

What are these "lots of" unpaid clerkships? A lot of state clerkships pay crap, but I haven't heard of a plethora of entirely unpaid positions.

State and municipal judicial clerkships. Even some Federal judges have been hiring unpaid clerks. Administrative Law Judges from Fed or State agencies.

http://abovethelaw.com/2013/11/federal- ... clerkship/

http://www.salon.com/2012/11/21/a_judge ... ree_labor/

And those are just some examples of Federal...there are TONS of state-level unpaid judicial clerkships.

[BigZuck]

Who sent up the Batsignal and summoned Brucewaynecougar?

I'm all about being conservative when it comes to making big decisions re: law school but come on.

And guess who knows far more about the legal job market than BigZuck?

You guessed it. It's JCougar. Aren't you a 1L or something?

The legal job market is not all sunshine and rainbows but that doesn't mean we have to lead people astray in the opposite direction.

Just go back to trolling Above the Law dude. Peddle your sour grapes somewhere else.

[NYstate]

Who sent up the Batsignal and summoned Brucewaynecougar?

I'm all about being conservative when it comes to making big decisions re: law school but come on.

And guess who knows far more about the legal job market than BigZuck?

You guessed it. It's JCougar. Aren't you a 1L or something?

The legal job market is not all sunshine and rainbows but that doesn't mean we have to lead people astray in the opposite direction.

Just go back to trolling Above the Law dude. Peddle your sour grapes somewhere else.

What exactly do you disagree with? I'm not sure what jobs or employment stats you are referring to?

[BigZuck]

Who sent up the Batsignal and summoned Brucewaynecougar?

I'm all about being conservative when it comes to making big decisions re: law school but come on.

And guess who knows far more about the legal job market than BigZuck?

You guessed it. It's JCougar. Aren't you a 1L or something?

The legal job market is not all sunshine and rainbows but that doesn't mean we have to lead people astray in the opposite direction.

Just go back to trolling Above the Law dude. Peddle your sour grapes somewhere else.

What exactly do you disagree with? I'm not sure what jobs or employment stats you are referring to?

It's a body of work thing. Because he struggled and is unhappy, everyone is doomed. If you get a job, there's a good chance it will be unpaid and you're basically a slave, way too conservative estimations of what schools are worth what dollar amounts, etc., etc.

I just think everything Brucewaynecougar says should be taken with the appropriate heaping of salt. He's like the dudes who say "Just go to Cooley and finish in the top 1% of your class and you'll be fine" except the opposite.

I do think the general cautionary tale of "outside of OCI, you'll have to hustle and it will be much more difficult to find a job" is sound. That's why we should be careful of too much debt at a school like Georgetown.

[A. Nony Mouse]

What are these "lots of" unpaid clerkships? A lot of state clerkships pay crap, but I haven't heard of a plethora of entirely unpaid positions.

State and municipal judicial clerkships. Even some Federal judges have been hiring unpaid clerks. Administrative Law Judges from Fed or State agencies.

http://abovethelaw.com/2013/11/federal- ... clerkship/

http://www.salon.com/2012/11/21/a_judge ... ree_labor/

And those are just some examples of Federal...there are TONS of state-level unpaid judicial clerkships.

I knew about the federal ones. Where are there state ones?

[NYstate]

It's a body of work thing. Because he struggled and is unhappy, everyone is doomed. If you get a job, there's a good chance it will be unpaid and you're basically a slave, way too conservative estimations of what schools are worth what dollar amounts, etc., etc.

I just think everything Brucewaynecougar says should be taken with the appropriate heaping of salt. He's like the dudes who say "Just go to Cooley and finish in the top 1% of your class and you'll be fine" except the opposite.

I do think the general cautionary tale of "outside of OCI, you'll have to hustle and it will be much more difficult to find a job" is sound. That's why we should be careful of too much debt at a school like Georgetown.

Maybe that is true but I haven't read anything in this thread that I disagree with. Minimizing debt is a huge part of maximizing your chances at success, but Georgetown also has a huge class size and is in an insanely competitive market, which makes getting a job even harder. And, of course, the mandatory curve, which 0 LS don't fully comprehend either.

The issue is that at a school like Georgetown it is impossible to predict accurately your employment situation until you get grades. (I know that PI may not look at grades as much as experience and commitment, the problem there is just no way of knowing for sure what jobs will be open.) And if you don't get a job through OCI, finding a job does seem to come down to mass mailing, connections and luck.

Do you think that only a third of the 500 0Ls at Georgetown went there planning on getting the grades for biglaw jobs? My feeling is that outside of the PI folks, almost everyone goes to a T14 thinking that they will end up with the biglaw job and the shiny salary. I feel that if people understood there is a good chance they will end up at a much lower salary due to the bimodal distribution( which 0Ls also don't understand), they just wouldn't go. (And, in fact, the more accurate understanding of employment stats is why applications have been dropping at many schools.)

I know there are plenty of people who just want to be lawyers. And I know many people who ended up with the job they wanted and are happy they went to law school. But I don't think many T14 students go with the intention of working in a small firm, or even an midlaw firm that doesn't pay market. I could be wrong, but (outside of PI) I don't think most Georgetown students attend believing that they will could end up making significantly less than 6 figures a year.

What do you think? Do you feel that Georgetown 0Ls accurately understand the job market?

[JCougar]

What are these "lots of" unpaid clerkships? A lot of state clerkships pay crap, but I haven't heard of a plethora of entirely unpaid positions.

State and municipal judicial clerkships. Even some Federal judges have been hiring unpaid clerks. Administrative Law Judges from Fed or State agencies.

http://abovethelaw.com/2013/11/federal- ... clerkship/

http://www.salon.com/2012/11/21/a_judge ... ree_labor/

And those are just some examples of Federal...there are TONS of state-level unpaid judicial clerkships.

I knew about the federal ones. Where are there state ones?

Here is New Jersey's site:

http://www.judiciary.state.nj.us/jobs/index2.htm

Four unpaid judicial clerkships on New Jersey's site (at the bottom). If you search similar states, counties, etc., you will easily find more.

[TheSpanishMain]

It's a body of work thing. Because he struggled and is unhappy, everyone is doomed.

Both on TLS and in general, I think people are much less able to take a step back from their personal experiences than they think they are. If someone struggled and is unhappy, it's hard to look around and see anything but bats and the screams of the innocent. On the other hand, I think back to the SmallLaw dude from Texas that was taking questions and kept saying, "Look, what you guys call Shit Law really isn't that bad. I make a pretty good salary, work livable hours, and am overall pretty happy." Even people who think they're being totally objective are going to be influenced heavily by their personal experiences.

[JCougar]

I do think the general cautionary tale of "outside of OCI, you'll have to hustle and it will be much more difficult to find a job" is sound. That's why we should be careful of too much debt at a school like Georgetown.

Isn't that what I'm saying? Isn't a 50% employment rate outside of OCI bad enough for you? It's 50% at a school like Georgetown, so imagine what it's like for a TTT. Even if you're trying to get a job locally, there's 3-4 graduates from your own TTT you are competing with for every one job. Not to mention the locals that went to a T14, struck out at OCI, and are returning home.

[JCougar]

Even people who think they're being totally objective are going to be influenced heavily by their personal experiences.

Um...but the objective stats are on my side. The bottom half of the T14 are not very successful at placing their non-OCI grads into real legal jobs. If you strike out at OCI, even at a T14, it's a 50/50 shot you'll be able to get a job as a lawyer. This isn't a huge concern at schools that place 50% of their students through OCI, but once placement gets down to 33% or so, you're looking at a third of the class that can't find a legal job 9 months after graduating.

I'm not some lone wolf that has struggled. I'm at a less than optimal position right now because funding was pulled from my potential position. There are thousands of grads within the T20 and T14 that are in the same boat as me. I personally know dozens of them. Get back to me when you have to deal with this crap market yourself.

[TheSpanishMain]

Four unpaid judicial clerkships on New Jersey's site (at the bottom). If you search similar states, counties, etc., you will easily find more.

Okay, I'm a 0L so it's completely possible that I'm reading this wrong, but these look like internships, not clerkships. Two of the four look like they're open to high school students. I think these are meant for people who are, at most, law students, not graduates.

[JCougar]

Four unpaid judicial clerkships on New Jersey's site (at the bottom). If you search similar states, counties, etc., you will easily find more.

Okay, I'm a 0L so it's completely possible that I'm reading this wrong, but these look like internships, not clerkships. Two of the four look like they're open to high school students. I think these are meant for people who are, at most, law students, not graduates.

They're open to HS students, but they say they are open to law students. I may have picked a bad example, but a lot of these positions end up going to law graduates. If they have dozens of graduates applying, they're not going to hire some high school student.

[Tiago Splitter]

My guess is that at least 25% of non-OCI jobs are unpaid.

This seemed crazy at first but when you consider that half of the LTFT bar passage required jobs in private practice are either solos or in firms of 2-10 attorneys it might not be far off.

[JCougar]

My guess is that at least 25% of non-OCI jobs are unpaid.

This seemed crazy at first but when you consider that half of the LTFT bar passage required jobs in private practice are either solos or in firms of 2-10 attorneys it might not be far off.

I think the private practice numbers are better than my estimated average (25%)...since its technically illegal for the private sector not to pay someone minimum wage unless it is "educational" and related to a degree program. Graduates should not qualify. Still, there are plenty of shitlaw firms willing to break the law thinking they can get away with it. I know an attorney suing a shitlaw firm right now for hiring graduates and having them work for free. It's a FLSA collective action suit, and this one firm alone had like two dozen unpaid interns over the last 3 years. But then ad in all the people going "solo," especially from TTTs, and even the private sector starts to get high on unpaid work.

Moreover, government and legal aid non-profits are exempt from minimum wage, because it is public service, and therefore they can hire "volunteers." I'd guess that about 50% of government positions reported on LST are unpaid, at least initially. I think legal non-profits still count as private practice, but when you throw all that in together with solos, etc., you might come out close to 25% as a whole. Not 25% from Georgetown, but when you factor in schools like American, Catholic, and whatever other TTTs there are around the DC area, 25% seems like a reasonable estimate overall.

[Tiago Splitter]

My guess is that at least 25% of non-OCI jobs are unpaid.

This seemed crazy at first but when you consider that half of the LTFT bar passage required jobs in private practice are either solos or in firms of 2-10 attorneys it might not be far off.

I think the private practice numbers are better than my estimated average (25%)...since its technically illegal for the private sector not to pay someone minimum wage unless it is "educational" and related to a degree program. Graduates should not qualify. Still, there are plenty of shitlaw firms willing to break the law thinking they can get away with it. I know an attorney suing a shitlaw firm right now for hiring graduates and having them work for free. It's a FLSA collective action suit, and this one firm alone had like two dozen unpaid interns over the last 3 years. But then ad in all the people going "solo," especially from TTTs, and even the private sector starts to get high on unpaid work.

Moreover, government and legal aid non-profits are exempt from minimum wage, because it is public service, and therefore they can hire "volunteers." I'd guess that about 50% of government positions reported on LST are unpaid, at least initially. I think legal non-profits still count as private practice, but when you throw all that in together with solos, etc., you might come out close to 25% as a whole. Not 25% from Georgetown, but when you factor in schools like American, Catholic, and whatever other TTTs there are around the DC area, 25% seems like a reasonable estimate overall.

I really doubt 25% of the advertised jobs are unpaid. My point was that lots of people who count as employed in full time, long term employment are starting their own practice or teaming with other grads to do so and aren't actually getting paid unless they bring in their own work. To say nothing of the people who end up at eat-what-you-kill shops. That said, I'm more concerned about people just getting paid scraps than people making nothing.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Four unpaid judicial clerkships on New Jersey's site (at the bottom). If you search similar states, counties, etc., you will easily find more.

Okay, I'm a 0L so it's completely possible that I'm reading this wrong, but these look like internships, not clerkships. Two of the four look like they're open to high school students. I think these are meant for people who are, at most, law students, not graduates.

They're open to HS students, but they say they are open to law students. I may have picked a bad example, but a lot of these positions end up going to law graduates. If they have dozens of graduates applying, they're not going to hire some high school student.

Yeah, those aren't clerkships and they're not doing clerk work. On that very page there's a paid law clerk position listed. I don't mean this to detract from the overall point because I recognize it's a side issue, but I don't think hyperbole helps the overall argument. Courts have always offered unpaid internships. Maybe law grads are volunteering to do these; I don't know (I do know a lot of places that take interns won't/can't take law grads for free, for liability reasons). That's different from saying that state courts are advertising unpaid clerkships and getting people actually applying for them, though.

[JCougar]

Yeah, those aren't clerkships and they're not doing clerk work. On that very page there's a paid law clerk position listed. I don't mean this to detract from the overall point because I recognize it's a side issue, but I don't think hyperbole helps the overall argument. Courts have always offered unpaid internships. Maybe law grads are volunteering to do these; I don't know (I do know a lot of places that take interns won't/can't take law grads for free, for liability reasons). That's different from saying that state courts are advertising unpaid clerkships and getting people actually applying for them, though.

From what I've heard and seen, a good number of "law school funded positions" are actually unpaid clerkships for low-level judges in whatever kind of court (state, municipal, etc.) you can clerk for. I don't think a lot are advertised...they're created from judges getting mass-mailed and law students desperate to do any kind of work...even if it is unpaid. I know someone that did two unpaid clerkships (1 year each) and eventually got a job at a pretty decent litigation boutique. It's a result of judges wanting to help out but having to deal with budget constraints. Or judges that already have the budget for one paid clerk, but are fine with having a second unpaid one.

Keep in mind that clerkships overall account for a very small proportion of all legal jobs, so it doesn't take many unadvertised positions to account for a good proportion of the jobs in the category.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Yes, I have seen those, but I think they're a bit different from saying "courts are hiring unpaid clerks!" That's more tied to the school-funded thing. (And technically they're paid, just not by the courts.)

Again, it's part of the whole picture, but saying "grads are getting school funding to work for judges and schools are counting it as employment" is a little different from saying "courts are getting clerks to work for free." (Which those federal judges did, of course. I think it started when biglaw was furloughing associates and they had to find something to do for a year. It's sucky now, though.)

I'll also admit I'm biased pro-courts/clerking.

[JCougar]

Yes, I have seen those, but I think they're a bit different from saying "courts are hiring unpaid clerks!" That's more tied to the school-funded thing. (And technically they're paid, just not by the courts.)

Again, it's part of the whole picture, but saying "grads are getting school funding to work for judges and schools are counting it as employment" is a little different from saying "courts are getting clerks to work for free." (Which those federal judges did, of course. I think it started when biglaw was furloughing associates and they had to find something to do for a year. It's sucky now, though.)

I'll also admit I'm biased pro-courts/clerking.

Ok, but a lot of those school-funded positions, the clerks are making close to minimum wage. At my school, they are actually making less. They may be getting school funding, but in some cases, it's a $750/month flat stipend.

I'm not against them...clerking for a judge is usually helpful. But the school-funded positions don't qualify for public interest IBR, and you will have to defer your loan payments.

I went from clerking for an ALJ (unpaid) to missing out on a full-time job at that agency due to the sequester/shutdown, to scrounging for a shitlaw job that lasted two weeks within which the one "partner" of the firm lost a huge case and had to lay me off because he no longer had the budget, to doing a school-funded municipal government fellowship. Now, with the passage of this Murray-Ryan budget compromise, it might not be long before my agency can hire again, so in a month or two, I may be set (it was pretty much my dream job since the start of law school, and I networked and soft-factored my ass off to even be considered for it). Of course, the Senate/House may still have to battle over appropriations, and that could be another fight that could end up poorly for me. They told me they would hire me if they had the budget to lift the hiring freeze, so I just have to wait and see. That's obviously a non-binding promise, too, so who knows.

But nothing I have experienced makes me feel sorry for my position, or makes me feel unique. In fact, I feel lucky just to have the potential to have the job I wanted, even if it doesn't pan out. I've meet so many people in similar or worse positions with similar or better credentials. Unless being a lawyer really is your dream job, it's a lot of stress/bullshit to go through. I also realize how close I came and could still end up coming to an unmitigated financial disaster that ruins my life for good.