The real reason why there aren't enough jobs to go around Forum

[Ben Franklin]

While I can admit that my post was semi-rage influenced, I stand by the overall conclusion drawn from it. After seeing two of my friends bashed on here over the last couple of years for their desire to go to law school, I figured it was time to vent a little. Right now even Yale only carries an 82% employment score on LST. Now we can take LST for what it's worth, but when considering many lower ranked schools carry a score around 60%, at what point does only a 2 in 10 extra shot of getting a job justify telling individuals to only go to the best schools or don't go at all? Scholarship $$ aside, paying sticker at both, I would argue that a 2 in 10 extra shot doesn't even begin to justify a school like Yale.

Some of you belong in law school, some of you don't. But nothing pisses me off more than seeing a pretentious little punk telling someone to simply not go somewhere, when they themselves don't belong in law school, and are only there because of their numbers. The post was never directed at any one individual, but as the old adage goes: If the Shoe Fits.....

[Ruxin1]

While I can admit that my post was semi-rage influenced, I stand by the overall conclusion drawn from it. After seeing two of my friends bashed on here over the last couple of years for their desire to go to law school, I figured it was time to vent a little. Right now even Yale only carries an 82% employment score on LST. Now we can take LST for what it's worth, but when considering many lower ranked schools carry a score around 60%, at what point does only a 2 in 10 extra shot of getting a job justify telling individuals to only go to the best schools or don't go at all? Scholarship $$ aside, paying sticker at both, I would argue that a 2 in 10 extra shot doesn't even begin to justify a school like Yale.

Some of you belong in law school, some of you don't. But nothing pisses me off more than seeing a pretentious little punk telling someone to simply not go somewhere, when they themselves don't belong in law school, and are only there because of their numbers. The post was never directed at any one individual, but as the old adage goes: if the shoe fits.....

I think you need a healthy does of "that's life" and life isn't always fair, so suck it up bro.

[North]

Some of you belong in law school, some of you don't. But nothing pisses me off more than seeing a pretentious little punk telling someone to simply not go somewhere, when they themselves don't belong in law school, and are only there because of their numbers. The post was never directed at any one individual, but as the old adage goes: if the shoe fits.....

Oh fuck you dude. Sorry your arbitrary reasons for deciding who should and shouldn't be a lawyer aren't the arbitrary reasons for deciding who should and shouldn't be a lawyer.

[Total Litigator]

What a fucking obnoxious OP, seriously.

I am admittedly obnoxious, but nonetheless entitled to an opinion based on my empirical research.

I do not think that means what you think it means.

It means exactly what I think it means. Empirical - Adjective - Based on, concerned with, or verifiable by observation or experience rather than theory or pure logic. Who's next?

I think the word you're looking for is 'anecdotal', i.e. "based on personal observation, case study reports, or random investigations rather than systematic scientific evaluation."

[star fox]

Here is my theory on why there is a high amount of unemployment amongst law grads. We all know that there are not enough jobs out there to support the amount of students graduating every year. This is 50% the fault of law schools, but also 50% the fault of the applicants.

I theorize that roughly 40-50% of applicants are of the variety that have no business attending law school in the first place. Just because you may be "smart" and can "do well on a standardized test" does not mean that you can, or should, be an attorney. You are better served being a math major, engineer, or something of that nature. Being an attorney requires a blend of social acumen, street smarts, book smarts, and business sense. Again, JUST BECAUSE YOU CAN DO WELL ON THE LSAT DOES NOT MEAN YOU SHOULD BE APPLYING TO LAW SCHOOL. Unfortunately, law schools will continue to accept and graduate these individuals at a high rate, so long as they have "the numbers".

Yes, there aren't enough jobs to go around, we are all well aware of this fact. But the problem is that too many of you think law is for you, when it isn't. The culture of this country breeds young individuals that carry a grandiose sense of self-perception and entitlement. The result is an influx of kids who think law is for them, because they "were destined to be somebody".

Law might not be for you if:

1. You chose law for lack of something better to do with your life. Having a JD doesn't mean you've made it. Like anything else, it takes years of practice and dedication to be successful. Many young people today do not realize this.

2. You have no friends, rarely get out, and are socially inept. The legal profession, no matter what type of law you choose to practice, requires individuals to have a certain level of social skills. And yes, this includes people that have 10,000+ posts on message boards. This does not, by any stretch of the imagination, make you cool. You might have finally found a way to fit in by becoming a "regular", but many of you are the epitome of the type of person that has no business being an attorney.

3. You think that because you are "smart", that you should be an attorney. I know plenty of attorneys that are dumb as a box of rocks, but are great attorneys.

4. You think that your ability to learn the methods and techniques of a standardized test means that you will be, or should be, an attorney. Again, this is certainly not the case.

5. You think that being a lawyer will make you rich. This sort of ties into reason #1, but has its own number because many people falsely assume that all lawyers make a ton of money. Plenty do, but only those that were dedicated and worked hard. Law is not a get rich quick business.

This rant is mainly directed at those on this forum who discourage people from going to law school, when they themselves should not be going to law school either. I say everyone should follow their dreams, but unless people stop having a blind sense of self-perception, they will keep applying, attending, and graduating in masses. And before some of you on here discourage someone from going to law school, look in the mirror.

This post is pretty awful. People applying to Law Schools that will make bad lawyers has nothing to do with what your thread claims to address in the subject, "the reason there aren't enough jobs to go around". Even if every single person applying to Law School had the great social acumen you talk about, that doesn't suddenly mean there would be jobs for all of them. The problem is pretty simply that the demand for the number of new lawyers we need in this country is far less than the number of graduates law schools are churning out by the year. So by extension, there are going to be a lot of people who are left out of the available lawyer jobs upon graduation. There's nothing more to it. Your potshots at law school applicants and TLS posters do nothing to explain this simply fact of supply and demand.

[Borg]

And what makes the OP think he's suited for this either? Idiot.

[star fox]

And what makes the OP think he's suited for this either? Idiot.

Reminds me of people with crap GPAs and crap majors who insist that they'll be fine because they (smugly) "know how to talk to people".

[whereskyle]

I think a required two years in a law firm (sort of like an apprenticeship) prior to law school would dissuade uncertain prospies from pursuing law school.

It is also my belief that apps are going to maintain this year's numbers or drop in '13-'14.

any predictions on that?

[romothesavior]

OP, your tone and your posts smack of "I'm an arrogant know-it-all 0L who feels compelled to share my ill-informed opinions with everyone and make assumptions about everyone and shit on everyone, but really I know nothing about legal hiring or law school." You obviously don't care about your reputation around here (it's shit, btw), which is fine, but you ought to lose that attitude quick or you will be a pariah at your law school. You have all the hallmarks of a the worst kind of law student.

And you more or less admitted to trolling in your PM to me the other day, so you are on my short list. Cut the crap in the on-topics.

[Elston Gunn]

While I can admit that my post was semi-rage influenced, I stand by the overall conclusion drawn from it. After seeing two of my friends bashed on here over the last couple of years for their desire to go to law school, I figured it was time to vent a little. Right now even Yale only carries an 82% employment score on LST. Now we can take LST for what it's worth, but when considering many lower ranked schools carry a score around 60%, at what point does only a 2 in 10 extra shot of getting a job justify telling individuals to only go to the best schools or don't go at all? Scholarship $$ aside, paying sticker at both, I would argue that a 2 in 10 extra shot doesn't even begin to justify a school like Yale.

It's really not useful to compare schools simply by their employment score, especially across such different levels of placement power. Most obviously, the kinds of jobs the employed graduates have are enormously different between Yale and schools with 60% employment scores. The Yale grads working as lawyers are mostly in firms paying market, desirable PI and AIII or SSC clerkships, while the T1 will have a lot more grads in low-paying and/or undesirable jobs. Also, the main reason Yale's (and Harvard's) employment score is so low is that a high percentage of the class is in school-funded jobs. If you look at the longer term outcomes for those students, they are almost all in either desirable outcomes for PI people or at least acceptable outcomes making a middle class salary and having Yale/Harvard pay their loans down. So almost all the people who are "unemployed" by the LST metric are actually doing fine or better. This is not close to the case at a lower-ranked school. The differences in outcomes really are huge, and you can't see that just from the employment score. The TLS point of view about law school is not just made up out of nowhere. It's based on quite a bit of data, actually. Much more than your opinion, at least.

[facile princeps]

Benji Franklin is old, fat, and would wake up in the middle of the night and read in the nude. You think that is a healthy life? You make me sick.

And I suppose Bobby Hill is a far better role model? I tell you hwhut.

You really think you are something else, don't you, asshole? If you are ever in my hood, let me know if you want to throw fisticuffs, because I would be game.

This has got to be the most polite invitation to an ass kicking I've ever read.

[Dr. Dre]

quit trolling bro

[Dr. Dre]

we need rad lulz in here to slap some sense into OP

[Ben Franklin]

we need rad lulz in here to slap some sense into OP

Stop trying to get your post count up by just quoting people and not adding anything to the discussion. I know you are trying to fit in, but it isn't working.

[A → B ⊨ ¬B → ¬A]

How tall are you, OP?

[Ben Franklin]

OP, your tone and your posts smack of "I'm an arrogant know-it-all 0L who feels compelled to share my ill-informed opinions with everyone and make assumptions about everyone and shit on everyone, but really I know nothing about legal hiring or law school." You obviously don't care about your reputation around here (it's shit, btw), which is fine, but you ought to lose that attitude quick or you will be a pariah at your law school. You have all the hallmarks of a the worst kind of law student.

And you more or less admitted to trolling in your PM to me the other day, so you are on my short list. Cut the crap in the on-topics.

Yes, I could care less about my reputation on a forum. I have a real life, with real friends. The opinion of others on a message board has no bearing on me whatsoever.

[romothesavior]

OP, your tone and your posts smack of "I'm an arrogant know-it-all 0L who feels compelled to share my ill-informed opinions with everyone and make assumptions about everyone and shit on everyone, but really I know nothing about legal hiring or law school." You obviously don't care about your reputation around here (it's shit, btw), which is fine, but you ought to lose that attitude quick or you will be a pariah at your law school. You have all the hallmarks of a the worst kind of law student.

And you more or less admitted to trolling in your PM to me the other day, so you are on my short list. Cut the crap in the on-topics.

Yes, I could care less about my reputation on a forum. I have a real life, with real friends. The opinion of others on a message board has no bearing on me whatsoever.

You kind of ignored my point. If this is how you talk to people in real life, you will be ostracized in a hot second when you get to law school. You're as arrogant and condescending as you are ignorant and ill-informed, which is like a Molotov cocktail of assholishness that law students tend to possess.

And oh cool, the "You guys have no life" schtick, always a classic.

[A → B ⊨ ¬B → ¬A]

How tall are you, OP?

I wonder which frat OP is in.

Also need to know OP's jawline angularity and 40 time.

[Needajob1]

I'm sure it will get interesting, But nobody can debate that fact that many young people today have a false sense of self-perception, and that too many people apply to law school because of a lack of anything else to do. THIS is why we have too many grads

What do you even mean by "false sense of self-perception"? Like...I think I have a sense of self-perception but really I don't?

I could analogize it by saying I think I should be an astronaut. I'm physically fit, I am interested in space, and I've been raised that I can do whatever I want. I might perceive myself to have the ability to be an astronaut, but the reality is no, I have no business being an astronaut. But some who have this sense of self-perception that they can do whatever, be whatever, etc might actually convince themselves they are going to the moon.

That's a pointless analogy because if someone really wants to be an astronaut and has the brains, schooling, and connections, they can be an astronaut. It's that drive and mindset that will actually enable someone to achieve. I have a different theory. I believe that if you want something bad enough you CAN achieve it. Law, medical, politics, astronaut, anything. Now you may not go to the moon, but you could be part of the space program and take an alternate path. The same with law. If your dream is to be a big law type lawyer but you end up as a public defender, it is not a failure, but an alternate path. Self-perception is key in fact and is the tool to get you where you want to go. Resilience is the other key where you don't let obstacles take you down, but you press on.

[Needajob1]

I'm sure it will get interesting, But nobody can debate that fact that many young people today have a false sense of self-perception, and that too many people apply to law school because of a lack of anything else to do. THIS is why we have too many grads

I can debate that fact!

[Dr. Dre]

That's a pointless analogy because if someone really wants to be an astronaut and has the brains, schooling, and connections, they can be an astronaut. It's that drive and mindset that will actually enable someone to achieve. I have a different theory. I believe that if you want something bad enough you CAN achieve it. Law, medical, politics, astronaut, anything. Now you may not go to the moon, but you could be part of the space program and take an alternate path. The same with law. If your dream is to be a big law type lawyer but you end up as a public defender, it is not a failure, but an alternate path. Self-perception is key in fact and is the tool to get you where you want to go. Resilience is the other key where you don't let obstacles take you down, but you press on.

+1

[A. Nony Mouse]

And oh cool, the "You guys have no life" schtick, always a classic.

Yes, I love how it's always the people who don't care what anonymous people on an internet forum think who post long-winded screeds of bad advice telling everyone why we should all agree with them.

[A → B ⊨ ¬B → ¬A]

What if you really wanted to go to the moon, but you took out a loan before 2007 and don't qualify for PAYE and you are about to launch in the Challenger?

[Needajob1]

What if you really wanted to go to the moon, but you took out a loan before 2007 and don't qualify for PAYE and you are about to launch in the Challenger?

Space program pays pretty well and they have a loan repayment program that helps cover 65,000 in debt! You still get paid while your in space plus you don't need to pay rent

[somewhatwayward]

OP, how do you know that you are such a great fit for law school?

Regardless of what you think of the LSAT, it has a significant role in determining people's futures' as lawyers. Most desirable employers disproportionately hire graduates of top schools who pretty much all have high LSAT scores. Apparently all these desirable employers aren't terribly concerned about whether the graduates of top schools are TLS basement dwellers. Also, always love to see the false dichotomy between intellectual intelligence and emotional/social intelligence...it may be shocking but a lot of people are actually smart and have social skills (although defining social skills as whether you go out at night makes me think you must be like a sophomore in college).

Anyway my guess is you have just started taking practice LSAT tests and all of a sudden your T14 aspirations are looking like pipe dreams. Solution: bash people with high LSAT scores....ahhhhhhh, projection.