ABA to consider accrediting FOREIGN law schools Forum

[Mick Haller]

This isn't happening. http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/ ... w_schools/

Yes!!!!!!!!!

15-0. Thank you fucking Jesus.

Just to be safe, and to make a point, some brave bottom-half TTT students should suicide bomb the two abstententions.

internet threats, even those made in jest, are not cool

[North]

Note that none of the reasons given for not accepting the proposal had anything to do with how terrible it would have been for American JDs and the corrosive effect it would have had on the American legal market. They voted it down because it would have been hard to do, not because it was a bad fucking idea.

Still reason to be worried -- dem ideological problems.

Fatduck for Governing Council of the ABA Section of Legal Education and Admissions to the Bar, 2014. May he reign protectionist policies down upon us until he's 100.

[tooswolle]

Note that none of the reasons given for not accepting the proposal had anything to do with how terrible it would have been for American JDs and the corrosive effect it would have had on the American legal market. They voted it down because it would have been hard to do, not because it was a bad fucking idea.

Still reason to be worried -- dem ideological problems.

Fatduck for Governing Council of the ABA Section of Legal Education and Admissions to the Bar, 2014. May he reign protectionist policies down upon us until he's 100.

I have to say its troubling to think that the reasons of the committee was not the direct effects it would have on us. Have those old fuckers really lost touch with reality? The world is in an economic depression due to many of thm over extending themselves financially and gambling with out financial infrastructure. Our generation is hurting in advancement because they won't retire, and they aren't doing anything to protect the profession. We really need people from our generation making decisions since they aren't really helping the situation.

[Jwb0711]

I think it says a lot that the Chinese want their law students to be eligible to take various bar exams in America, while at the same time it is virtually impossible for a non Chinese national to be able to take their bar.

Kinda like what they are doing to us in "free trade".

Smooth China, smooth.

[westinghouse60]

Stakeholders also said it would be difficult, if not impossible, to acculturate students in foreign law schools in the culture, values and ethics of the American legal system.

lol, ABA values, lol

[KevinP]

Have you considered a DPT (Physical Therapy) degree? It's the same length as lawschool (3 years), and is a growth, in-demand industry with high pay and zero chance of being outsourced. My GF is applying to programs right now (she was a bio undergrad), and we hope that once she graduates we'll pretty much live off her income and I'll just be a stay-at-home dad & part time shitlawyer.

No, for the following reasons:
(1) Even if not outsourced, advances in technology may greatly diminish the need for physical therapists.
(2) A high demand for physical therapists may subsequently increase the number of people going into the field, thereby leading to a glut. This situation has happened in many fields before. Just look at the market for entry-level nurses.
(3) My earning potential with a degree from Columbia and IP background, if I get biglaw/boutique, is far, far better than physical therapy. Especially because CLS offered me a decent chunk of money.
(4) Health care reform may greatly drive the income of physical therapy.

And my strongest reason:
(5) I have no interest whatsoever working as a physical therapist because I would be dealing with baby boomers all day. I have no interest in looking after the generation that completely screwed my generation over. (This one is more of a joke since not all boomers are the same)

If you feel this way why do u plan on attending law school (not to be rude), but just asking.

I do not believe that law as a career is dead, but i do feel something needs to be done to make a change

According to his posts, he's not heading to law school. He's a boomer that works in a small firm, and he regularly utilizes outsourcing.

I think it says a lot that the Chinese want their law students to be eligible to take various bar exams in America, while at the same time it is virtually impossible for a non Chinese national to be able to take their bar.

Kinda like what they are doing to us in "free trade".

Smooth China, smooth.

Seriously. The whole concept of free trade was started so the U.S. could sell to other countries. It isn't free trade if only one side is abiding by the rules. I'm glad the ABA didn't accredit foreign schools, but they did not for all the wrong reasons.

Millennials of the world, unite!

[sadsituationJD]

(1) Even if not outsourced, advances in technology may greatly diminish the need for physical therapists.
(2) A high demand for physical therapists may subsequently increase the number of people going into the field, thereby leading to a glut. This situation has happened in many fields before. Just look at the market for entry-level nurses.
(3) My earning potential with a degree from Columbia and IP background, if I get biglaw/boutique, is far, far better than physical therapy. Especially because CLS offered me a decent chunk of money.
(4) Health care reform may greatly drive the income of physical therapy.

All excellent points, but at least it's not the "all or nothing" that law is. At Columbia you'll have excellent chance at a Biglaw 160 K job, but most on this board are not going to Columbia, and most will not get the 160 K biglaw job.

That's where the trouble begins. Once you're out of the Biglaw running, you're stuck looking to "midlaw" firms, those amazing, unicorn-like shops that are much discussed but rarely actually seen. The places that do higher-level work and offer starting salaries of 80 to 110 K or so. Good luck finding one of those jobs, esp. ITE.

For most who miss Biglaw, their starting salary (provided they find a job at all, which is a big "if") will likely be 35 K to 50 K. That's an abysmal outcome for 7 years of education and all that debt.

[JetsFan1990]

(1) Even if not outsourced, advances in technology may greatly diminish the need for physical therapists.
(2) A high demand for physical therapists may subsequently increase the number of people going into the field, thereby leading to a glut. This situation has happened in many fields before. Just look at the market for entry-level nurses.
(3) My earning potential with a degree from Columbia and IP background, if I get biglaw/boutique, is far, far better than physical therapy. Especially because CLS offered me a decent chunk of money.
(4) Health care reform may greatly drive the income of physical therapy.

All excellent points, but at least it's not the "all or nothing" that law is. At Columbia you'll have excellent chance at a Biglaw 160 K job, but most on this board are not going to Columbia, and most will not get the 160 K biglaw job.

That's where the trouble begins. Once you're out of the Biglaw running, you're stuck looking to "midlaw" firms, those amazing, unicorn-like shops that are much discussed but rarely actually seen. The places that do higher-level work and offer starting salaries of 80 to 110 K or so. Good luck finding one of those jobs, esp. ITE.

For most who miss Biglaw, their starting salary (provided they find a job at all, which is a big "if") will likely be 35 K to 50 K. That's an abysmal outcome for 7 years of education and all that debt.

Welcome to the hangover economy! —brought to you by none other than your favorite SHITBOOMERS. Still, it's worth noting that some people actually WANT to become lawyers, shitty economy or not. SadSituationJD, I apologize for your seemingly shit career, but you should have known! RU-N, or whatever other TTT you attended, lieddddddd brotha!

[Miracle]

(1) Even if not outsourced, advances in technology may greatly diminish the need for physical therapists.
(2) A high demand for physical therapists may subsequently increase the number of people going into the field, thereby leading to a glut. This situation has happened in many fields before. Just look at the market for entry-level nurses.
(3) My earning potential with a degree from Columbia and IP background, if I get biglaw/boutique, is far, far better than physical therapy. Especially because CLS offered me a decent chunk of money.
(4) Health care reform may greatly drive the income of physical therapy.

All excellent points, but at least it's not the "all or nothing" that law is. At Columbia you'll have excellent chance at a Biglaw 160 K job, but most on this board are not going to Columbia, and most will not get the 160 K biglaw job.

That's where the trouble begins. Once you're out of the Biglaw running, you're stuck looking to "midlaw" firms, those amazing, unicorn-like shops that are much discussed but rarely actually seen. The places that do higher-level work and offer starting salaries of 80 to 110 K or so. Good luck finding one of those jobs, esp. ITE.

For most who miss Biglaw, their starting salary (provided they find a job at all, which is a big "if") will likely be 35 K to 50 K. That's an abysmal outcome for 7 years of education and all that debt.

You are one lost individual. You need a reality check.

[Mick Haller]

You are one lost individual. You need a reality check.

what he said sounded mostly accurate

[KevinP]

That's where the trouble begins. Once you're out of the Biglaw running, you're stuck looking to "midlaw" firms, those amazing, unicorn-like shops that are much discussed but rarely actually seen. The places that do higher-level work and offer starting salaries of 80 to 110 K or so. Good luck finding one of those jobs, esp. ITE.

I agree with your general statements that most people shouldn't go to law school, and that missing biglaw/clerkship when one has a huge amount of debt puts one in a precarious position. However, the bolded isn't accurate. After a few years of biglaw, the desirable law jobs are far more easier to get. For example, non-profits, state or federal government, in house at corporations, and small/medium commercial litigation firms. There are of course unemployed ex-biglaw attorneys, and one will most likely have to take a paycut after biglaw, but your scenario is overestimating the risk.

[Miracle]

You are one lost individual. You need a reality check.

what he said sounded mostly accurate

No its not! There are many flaws with what he said, not to mention if he thinks law school in such a bad investment, as I stated earlier he really shouldn't go.

[buddingjd]

That's where the trouble begins. Once you're out of the Biglaw running, you're stuck looking to "midlaw" firms, those amazing, unicorn-like shops that are much discussed but rarely actually seen. The places that do higher-level work and offer starting salaries of 80 to 110 K or so. Good luck finding one of those jobs, esp. ITE.

I agree with your general statements that most people shouldn't go to law school, and that missing biglaw/clerkship when one has a huge amount of debt puts one in a precarious position. However, the bolded isn't accurate. After a few years of biglaw, the desirable law jobs are far more easier to get. For example, non-profits, state or federal government, in house at corporations, and small/medium commercial litigation firms. There are of course unemployed ex-biglaw attorneys, and one will most likely have to take a paycut after biglaw, but your scenario is overestimating the risk.

Combination of poor phrasing by the initial post and then poor reading comp. by the followup - sadsituationJD is referring to the ephemeral midlaw jobs that people mistakenly think they can turn to if they strike out with BigLaw at OCI. He was not talking about exit options.

[KevinP]

^ Yeah, I misinterpreted him then. I kind of assumed it was common knowledge that entry-level legal hiring was bimodal.

[Miracle]

I only have one question. Why is everyone concerned so much with regards to law school, its job statistics, its unemployment etc. I saw one web site that was searching for anyone graduating from law school that is yet to find a job so they can do an interview with them. Im not saying that the legal market is great, but its annoying to listen to some of these interviews. To me it seems as if they are going out of their way to make our profession look bad.

Then again I could be bit overprotective which is resulting in my annoyance.

[justonemoregame]

I think they may be going out of their way to dissuade people from applying to law school without considering their future prospects. Apparently, a lot of people do this.

[Miracle]

I think they may be going out of their way to dissuade people from applying to law school without considering their future prospects. Apparently, a lot of people do this.

Its questionable.

[timbs4339]

I only have one question. Why is everyone concerned so much with regards to law school, its job statistics, its unemployment etc. I saw one web site that was searching for anyone graduating from law school that is yet to find a job so they can do an interview with them. Im not saying that the legal market is great, but its annoying to listen to some of these interviews. To me it seems as if they are going out of their way to make our profession look bad.

Then again I could be bit overprotective which is resulting in my annoyance.

This is like somebody who lives in a gang neighborhood attacking the people who report crimes to the police and the press for making the neighborhood look bad instead of blaming the gangsters who shoot people in the first place. What is happening is a natural consequence of the behavior of the law deans and professors who have jacked up tuition and lied about their placement. I'm not willing to send kids 200K into debt just to avoid making you feel embarrassed. Instead, you should be pissed about what the profs and deans are doing to the profession for their own pecuniary gain.

[Miracle]

I only have one question. Why is everyone concerned so much with regards to law school, its job statistics, its unemployment etc. I saw one web site that was searching for anyone graduating from law school that is yet to find a job so they can do an interview with them. Im not saying that the legal market is great, but its annoying to listen to some of these interviews. To me it seems as if they are going out of their way to make our profession look bad.

Then again I could be bit overprotective which is resulting in my annoyance.

This is like somebody who lives in a gang neighborhood attacking the people who report crimes to the police and the press for making the neighborhood look bad instead of blaming the gangsters who shoot people in the first place. What is happening is a natural consequence of the behavior of the law deans and professors who have jacked up tuition and lied about their placement. I'm not willing to send kids 200K into debt just to avoid making you feel embarrassed. Instead, you should be pissed about what the profs and deans are doing to the profession for their own pecuniary gain.

Why aren't you pissed at your undergrad institution for not landing a " desired job", or "job at all". Its the same scenario. Not everyone that gets an undergrad degree in certain field gets a job in that particular field, and press is not making that big of a deal about it. As I stated earlier, i'm not saying that market is great, or that ABA doesn't need a re-construction. I am number one advocate of such action, but as implied by your post there are obvious flaws, and instead of focusing on such flaws they are taking the whole profession down. Why don't they do article about lower ranked schools etc, and job prospects for students coming from such schools. No, they lump us all together in the same category, and do headlines such as "Legal education is dying out" etc.

Furthermore, most people are not aware of the way law school operates. They are not aware of the medians, and graduating above and below medians-class rank etc. Most people on here know what will happen if you graduate at the bottom of your class, and that you should re-evaluate your attendance, but most people do not. When someone presents me with an argument and argues that legal profession is going down because his friend can't get a job from a TTTT school and bad grades I tend to get defensive about it, but then I here "diploma is a diploma", grades do not matter. That's not how law school operates, and such ignorance of law school does exist in society, and all media is doing is embracing such ignorance. I'm sorry i don't mind anyone stating the facts, and I want them to, by all means, but I would like to be part of a respected profession and get bit defensive when people attack the whole profession rather than issues itself.

[timbs4339]

I only have one question. Why is everyone concerned so much with regards to law school, its job statistics, its unemployment etc. I saw one web site that was searching for anyone graduating from law school that is yet to find a job so they can do an interview with them. Im not saying that the legal market is great, but its annoying to listen to some of these interviews. To me it seems as if they are going out of their way to make our profession look bad.

Then again I could be bit overprotective which is resulting in my annoyance.

This is like somebody who lives in a gang neighborhood attacking the people who report crimes to the police and the press for making the neighborhood look bad instead of blaming the gangsters who shoot people in the first place. What is happening is a natural consequence of the behavior of the law deans and professors who have jacked up tuition and lied about their placement. I'm not willing to send kids 200K into debt just to avoid making you feel embarrassed. Instead, you should be pissed about what the profs and deans are doing to the profession for their own pecuniary gain.

Why aren't you pissed at your undergrad institution for not landing a " desired job", or "job at all". Its the same scenario. Not everyone that gets an undergrad degree in certain field gets a job in that particular field, and press is not making that big of a deal about it. As I stated earlier, i'm not saying that market is great, or that ABA doesn't need a re-construction. I am number one advocate of such action, but as implied by your post there are obvious flaws, and instead of focusing on such flaws they are taking the whole profession down. Why don't they do article about lower ranked schools etc, and job prospects for students coming from such schools. No, they lump us all together in the same category, and do headlines such as "Legal education is dying out" etc.

Furthermore, most people are not aware of the way law school operates. They are not aware of the medians, and graduating above and below medians-class rank etc. Most people on here know what will happen if you graduate at the bottom of your class, and that you should re-evaluate your attendance, but most people do not. When someone presents me with an argument and argues that legal profession is going down because his friend can't get a job from a TTTT school and bad grades I tend to get defensive about it, but then I here "diploma is a diploma", grades do not matter. That's not how law school operates, and such ignorance of law school does exist in society, and all media is doing is embracing such ignorance. I'm sorry i don't mind anyone stating the facts, and I want them to, by all means, but I would like to be part of a respected profession and get bit defensive when people attack the whole profession rather than issues itself.

I'm not pissed at my UG because I got exactly what I needed out of it. It was a state school, cheap, had a blast, and I got into a T6 law school. If I hadn't, I still would not have been 200K in the hole for the rest of my life. I could have gone and worked retail and moved up the ladder from there without having to pay Aunt Sallie each month.

This isn't about TTT schools any more, it hasn't been for awhile. There are a substantial number of people graduating from T40 schools unemployed or making 40K- at which point law school is not a good investment at sticker which is what a lot of people have to pay for the business model to continue to operate. The entire system is broken from the top down, since all the lower ranked law schools do is try to emulate the top ranked schools. I know two people from WUSTL still unemployed and 200K in the hole, 3 from Cardozo. I went the UVA softball tournament and the number one complaint at any school ranked outside of the top 14 was that there were no jobs. I am shocked to find out the USNWR ranking of some of the schools that are universally known around here to be bad investments at sticker because I assumed they be ranked much lower.

Even if you try to hide the fact that the profession is losing prestige, people will observe it themselves. When you dump twice as many JDs as there are jobs out onto the market year after year that info begins to trickle down. You hear about some kid who graduated and is still living in his parent's basement. You go home and see a JD working at the same job they worked in HS. That shit gets out- you won't be able to hide it forever with the supposed "prestige" of your degree. You need to either bite the bullet and address it now (OMG people won't think I'm smart what will I do!), or it will come crashing down on you just as the younger generation of lawyers stands to gain the most from the profession.

It's not just the bottom of the barrel at TTTs who can't find anything. Try top half at a T40.

[Miracle]

I'm not pissed at my UG because I got exactly what I needed out of it. It was a state school, cheap, had a blast, and I got into a T6 law school. If I hadn't, I still would not have been 200K in the hole for the rest of my life. I could have gone and worked retail and moved up the ladder from there without having to pay Aunt Sallie each month.

This isn't about TTT schools any more, it hasn't been for awhile. There are a substantial number of people graduating from T40 schools unemployed or making 40K- at which point law school is not a good investment at sticker which is what a lot of people have to pay for the business model to continue to operate. The entire system is broken from the top down, since all the lower ranked law schools do is try to emulate the top ranked schools. I know two people from WUSTL still unemployed and 200K in the hole, 3 from Cardozo. I went the UVA softball tournament and the number one complaint at any school ranked outside of the top 14 was that there were no jobs. I am shocked to find out the USNWR ranking of some of the schools that are universally known around here to be bad investments at sticker because I assumed they be ranked much lower.

Even if you try to hide the fact that the profession is losing prestige, people will observe it themselves. When you dump twice as many JDs as there are jobs out onto the market year after year that info begins to trickle down. You hear about some kid who graduated and is still living in his parent's basement. You go home and see a JD working at the same job they worked in HS. That shit gets out- you won't be able to hide it forever with the supposed "prestige" of your degree. You need to either bite the bullet and address it now (OMG people won't think I'm smart what will I do!), or it will come crashing down on you just as the younger generation of lawyers stands to gain the most from the profession.

It's not just the bottom of the barrel at TTTs who can't find anything. Try top half at a T40.[/quote]

You might have walked away from your undergrad happy, but there are many many people that do not share the same feelings as you. I'm sure there are people whom feel the same way about their WUSTL Law degree as you feel about your undergrad degree. To some people it might be worth it, while the others it might not.

I agree with you in regards to your statement about dumping twice as many JDs as there are jobs, but thats the issue that should be addressed not "legal profession is going down the drain". I've read so many posts complaining about how ABA handles things, but no one is yet to challenge anything ABA threw at us, and has instead chosen to sit back and take whatever ABA presents them with. If we are the next generation of lawyers advocating on behalf of justice then we should collectively be able to influence the way ABA does things. ABA exists due to law schools, and law schools exist due to students. Some of these schools need to be closed, and ABA needs to step up and do something about it. We need to adopt the same system that Medical schools have.

Furthermore, I don't know how well your friend did at his law school, but if he did poorly do u feel he deserved a job? If someone comes from UVA Law, and is at the bottom of their class what can they expect. We all walked in Law schools knowing that grades are everything, and should be guarding them with our life. I have a friend that entered Law school before I did, and many many time she told me i do not know what is going on in class as there is too much reading, and i just don't feel like sitting there and reading the whole day. I'm sorry you should be reading every single page, every single day, repeating the reading if you do not understand. She ended up 7th from the bottom out of 225 students. Looking from an outside inside I know for sure If I was granted an admission to Columbia I would appreciate my admission, and do whatever it takes-even If I had to sit there the whole night to read and study.

[justonemoregame]

Miracle:

You seem to be boiling down the efforts of those who are shedding light on the economics of attending law school to *shitting all over this sacred profession.* Very simply, the attempt is to make people less ignorant w/r/t cost vs. outcome. To say that these efforts are not a challenge to the ABA is short-sighted. There are even ABA committee members who work with the founders of LST to improve data collection and reporting. Seemingly, some progress, in the form of lower enrollment, is being made. It may not be enough, and it is certainly too late for many, but hopefully with continued and broader media coverage, the enrollment cuts will be perpetual, perhaps leading to the closing of some schools you mention.

About the specific type of media coverage you refer to -- say, a news story about a few recent grads who can't find employment. It may not be the most comprehensive coverage and it may not illustrate mathematically the absurdity of Stetson or Cardozo at sticker, but at least it's coverage. And it will probably be a broader type of coverage that parents/friends of potential law applicants can pick up, which is important.

[fatduck]

You seem to be boiling down the efforts of those who are shedding light on the economics of attending law school to *shitting all over this sacred profession.*

technically, he's only boiling down the efforts of straw men. every reply has been "well, okay, that's fine, but what these OTHER people are saying is unfair and damaging to the profession!"

[timbs4339]

You might have walked away from your undergrad happy, but there are many many people that do not share the same feelings as you. I'm sure there are people whom feel the same way about their WUSTL Law degree as you feel about your undergrad degree. To some people it might be worth it, while the others it might not.

I agree with you in regards to your statement about dumping twice as many JDs as there are jobs, but thats the issue that should be addressed not "legal profession is going down the drain". I've read so many posts complaining about how ABA handles things, but no one is yet to challenge anything ABA threw at us, and has instead chosen to sit back and take whatever ABA presents them with. If we are the next generation of lawyers advocating on behalf of justice then we should collectively be able to influence the way ABA does things. ABA exists due to law schools, and law schools exist due to students. Some of these schools need to be closed, and ABA needs to step up and do something about it. We need to adopt the same system that Medical schools have.

Furthermore, I don't know how well your friend did at his law school, but if he did poorly do u feel he deserved a job? If someone comes from UVA Law, and is at the bottom of their class what can they expect. We all walked in Law schools knowing that grades are everything, and should be guarding them with our life. I have a friend that entered Law school before I did, and many many time she told me i do not know what is going on in class as there is too much reading, and i just don't feel like sitting there and reading the whole day. I'm sorry you should be reading every single page, every single day, repeating the reading if you do not understand. She ended up 7th from the bottom out of 225 students. Looking from an outside inside I know for sure If I was granted an admission to Columbia I would appreciate my admission, and do whatever it takes-even If I had to sit there the whole night to read and study.

Whether my friends at other schools feel they "deserve" jobs is irrelevant. What is relevant is that the fact they and half their classmates at T1 schools don't have jobs is going to hurt the profession and therefore my career. Even someone who is totally without sympathy for fellow law students graduating with 200K in debt should see that. And they are certainly not bottom 5%- try top half or top third.

Again, the point is that the legal profession is going down the drain because there are no jobs and it costs too much to enter. A profession looks out for it's members, especially the younger ones. It takes an interest in their training and development. Yes, it is protectionist. The people in charge of the ABA have abdicated all pretense of this being a profession. Kids coming out of law school without jobs, or working part-time jobs, or temp doc review, are not "professionals." They have jobs, sometimes minimum wage jobs. This stopped being a profession long ago. I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but if you are looking for something like that look elsewhere.

You seem to be a 0L- so I'll close with saying that 24/7 studying is neither necessary nor sufficient to get a good GPA, even (and especially) at CLS or another T6 school. First-year grades are a crapshoot. Don't judge if you haven't been through it.

[Liquox]

don't those people have a disadvantage taking the bar? imagine having to master our laws and their native laws to the point that they can out-perform at least 50% of both countries (otherwise, there's no employment)