aample at Phoenix Forum

[dowu]

What is your plan for paying off $200k in loans?

Personally, I would make sure not to strap myself with $200k in loans. There is way too much grant money available for anyone to not take advantage of finding alternative means to pay for their law school education.

You're either trolling or you're profoundly retarded. Looking at your previous posts, you're definitely not trolling.

Enjoy TJLS!

[kamaya]

I believe the end justifies the means.

Me too.

But you don't have the right end.

The end is to be a practicing lawyers, not to have a JD. Law school is the means, even passing the bar is the means. Actual employment is the ends.

So, to get a job as a practicing lawyer, shouldn't the means adapt? Shouldn't someone take the LSAT again and try to get into a better school? Isn't that what someone who thinks the ends justifies the means would say?

I know he trollin', but others coming across the thread might not.

Who are you to tell someone who is going to law school what their end is? There are some people who have taken the lsat 3 times and have a decent score are are sticking with it and not deciding to wait 2 years to take it again. As I've said in previous posts, what's important is to pass the bar to be able to practice law. There are some people who have a job waiting for them. And for those who don't, they will have to do what ever it takes to find one. And shame on those people who decide to go to law school without doing their research first. No one should go in such an undertaking with their eyes closed.

You seem to be taking these posts really personally, nobody is trying to shit on your dream of going to law school but it's not realistic to just say you'll do "whatever it takes" to get a job. Do you think all the unemployed JDs who never got a legal job and never will just weren't willing to do whatever it takes?

Much of what I've posted is not personal. I just have an alternative view in response to many of the negative and discouraging comments. Anyone who has done their proper research on the current state of the law field knows and understands what the deal is. Or at least they should. I just think it's counter productive to constantly harp on the fact that jobs are nil and shout that one shouldn't go to law school. Then again, I have read that there are people who go to law school because they don't know what else to do with their lives. Because I know people who truly want to learn about the law and despite tuition prices rising are choosing to go to law school.

[Ludo!]

Much of what I've posted is not personal. I just have an alternative view in response to many of the negative and discouraging comments. Anyone who has done their proper research on the current state of the law field knows and understands what the deal is. Or at least they should. I just think it's counter productive to constantly harp on the fact that jobs are nil and shout that one shouldn't go to law school. Then again, I have read that there are people who go to law school because they don't know what else to do with their lives. Because I know people who truly want to learn about the law and despite tuition prices rising are choosing to go to law school.

You can truly learn the law with a library card. You shouldn't go to law school unless you want to become a lawyer and you shouldn't go to a law school that only gives you a >40% (and that's being generous) chance at getting a legal job. That's the only rational viewpoint.

[kamaya]

AAMPLE is a $3,500 lottery ticket. 1 in 2 (or an even worse ratio) will win.

If you win, you have the privilege of purchasing a $200,000 lottery ticket. At Phoenix, fewer than 1 in 20 will win. Losers will be stuck with over $200,000 in non-dischargeable student loan debt.

How does this sound like a good idea? And how does it sound like a better idea than retaking, which costs less than $150?

Don't mislead people. Your facts are totally off. No law school costs $200k. The real losers are 20 somethings who haven't paid a dime back from their undergraduate degree and because they don't know what they want to do with their life, apply to law school and get 60k - 70k more in debt. Then complain about how there are no jobs to pay for their stupidity.

[rinkrat19]

Don't mislead people. Your facts are totally off. No law school costs $200k.

Are you really this stupid?


$79,370 x3 (minus the computer the next 2 years) = $234,110
NOT counting the interest that accrues over three years.

(Incidentally, that's for a good school, not some shithole like Phoenix or Cooley.)

[Glock]

You end up six figures in debt and maaaaaybe 5% of your class gets a job that allows them to comfortably pay off that amount.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. As attractive as a career at the Harla Davidson (Cooley grad) law firm might be if you are at the top of your class (PSL advertises their graduates being placed there), you shouldn't create false hope.

[kamaya]

Don't mislead people. Your facts are totally off. No law school costs $200k.

Are you really this stupid?


$79,370 x3 (minus the computer the next 2 years) = $234,110

(Incidentally, that's for a good school, not some shithole like Phoenix or Cooley.)

The chart is a complete estimate with tuition for three years a little over 150k sticker price. Are you that stupid to 1) Choose to attend a school where you pay full price for tuition, and 2) Take out loans to pay for health insurance, personal items, transportation, and other misc. things? Come on, nice try to pull up some numbers and think that you made your point. Don't go to law school of you don't know how to handle finances. That's pure stupidity.

[Ludo!]

Don't mislead people. Your facts are totally off. No law school costs $200k.

Are you really this stupid?


$79,370 x3 (minus the computer the next 2 years) = $234,110

(Incidentally, that's for a good school, not some shithole like Phoenix or Cooley.)

The chart is a complete estimate with tuition for three years a little over 150k sticker price. Are you that stupid to 1) Choose to attend a school where you pay full price for tuition, and 2) Take out loans to pay for health insurance, personal items, transportation, and other misc. things? Come on, nice try to pull up some numbers and think that you made your point. Don't go to law school of you don't know how to handle finances. That's pure stupidity.

How are you planning on paying for health insurance and other living expenses while you're in school?

[Mal Reynolds]

The chart is a complete estimate with tuition for three years a little over 150k sticker price. Are you that stupid to 1) Choose to attend a school where you pay full price for tuition, and 2) Take out loans to pay for health insurance, personal items, transportation, and other misc. things? Come on, nice try to pull up some numbers and think that you made your point. Don't go to law school of you don't know how to handle finances. That's pure stupidity.

I've been waitlisted for Thurgood Marshall School of Law. Is there anyone currentley waitlisted for this law school? Does anyone have experience with being accepted after being placed on the waitlist from this law school? Any replies would be insightful!!

Im curious to know what school you will be attending below sticker price. If you got waitlisted at Thurgood Marshall, you will not be getting any scholarship money, there or otherwise.

[emkay625]

Don't mislead people. Your facts are totally off. No law school costs $200k.

Are you really this stupid?


$79,370 x3 (minus the computer the next 2 years) = $234,110

(Incidentally, that's for a good school, not some shithole like Phoenix or Cooley.)

The chart is a complete estimate with tuition for three years a little over 150k sticker price. Are you that stupid to 1) Choose to attend a school where you pay full price for tuition, and 2) Take out loans to pay for health insurance, personal items, transportation, and other misc. things? Come on, nice try to pull up some numbers and think that you made your point. Don't go to law school of you don't know how to handle finances. That's pure stupidity.

How do you plan on paying for living expenses while you are in law school? Do you have an extra 60K in the bank?

[Favre4Prez]

Don't do it. Please don't do it.

cause one of us goes in
And we all go through it
Drizzy got the money, so Drizzy gonna pay it
Those my brothers, I ain't even gotta say it
That's just something they know

Lol I love that I'm not the only one who thought of this.

[moonman157]

If you take the LSAT there they will offer you admission and a 6000 dollar scholarship, or at least they did for me. Didn't even need to apply!

This should be a warning sign that you may not be getting a good education...

[JusticeHarlan]

Who are you to tell someone who is going to law school what their end is?

As I've said in previous posts, what's important is to pass the bar to be able to practice law.

"You can't tell people why they're going to law school, only I can tell people why they're going to law school!"

[mi-chan17]

AAMPLE is a $3,500 lottery ticket. 1 in 2 (or an even worse ratio) will win.

If you win, you have the privilege of purchasing a $200,000 lottery ticket. At Phoenix, fewer than 1 in 20 will win. Losers will be stuck with over $200,000 in non-dischargeable student loan debt.

How does this sound like a good idea? And how does it sound like a better idea than retaking, which costs less than $150?

Don't mislead people. Your facts are totally off. No law school costs $200k.

First: No law school costs over $200k? Here: --LinkRemoved--. That's PSOL's cost of attendance, and it's over $190k, which will be over $200k once you add in the interest it's building up.

The chart is a complete estimate with tuition for three years a little over 150k sticker price. Are you that stupid to 1) Choose to attend a school where you pay full price for tuition, and 2) Take out loans to pay for health insurance, personal items, transportation, and other misc. things? Come on, nice try to pull up some numbers and think that you made your point. Don't go to law school of you don't know how to handle finances. That's pure stupidity.

Second: You don't seem to get the point of this thread. We aren't trashing on TTT's generally, or even PSOL specifically. We're talking about people doing the AAMPLE program. Your stuff about getting merit aid or grants or whatever may hold water for people going to TTT's in some normal way, but that's not true for this program. If you're in AAMPLE, it's because your numbers were so subpar that even TTTT's wouldn't take you outright. If you do AAMPLE to get in, you're not getting merit aid - they've already told you you aren't good enough. You're getting loans. And, as I've just shown you, you're getting over $200k in debt to go to a TTTT.

This isn't me "misleading" people, or trying to put them off TTTs (which anyone who looks at my post history could see is not typically something I bother to get into). This is me just putting the reality of it out there about the AAMPLE program

There's no need for you to get defensive over your decision to attend a TTT/TTTT. That's not what this thread is about. So, unless your hard-on is for AAMPLE itself, calm down.

The real losers are 20 somethings who haven't paid a dime back from their undergraduate degree and because they don't know what they want to do with their life, apply to law school and get 60k - 70k more in debt. Then complain about how there are no jobs to pay for their stupidity.

Third, I sincerely hope that wasn't some thinly veiled attack against me. 'Cause...you're all off, none of that applies to me. So I'll pretend you meant it more generally.

[Paul Campos]

I don't link to my blog from this site, as I understand the site's operators don't want people using it for promotional purposes, but I hope they'll make an exception for this post, which is the result of some investigations I did this weekend after TLS alerted me to the existence of AAMPLE programs. http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot. ... ircle.html

[Wily]

I don't link to my blog from this site, as I understand the site's operators don't want people using it for promotional purposes, but I hope they'll make an exception for this post, which is the result of some investigations I did this weekend after TLS alerted me to the existence of AAMPLE programs. http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot. ... ircle.html

I like the article, and really feel bad for anyone who can't break 150 after maxing out on retakes (but still really wants to go to law school). It seems they're stuck in the predicament of having to go somewhere for full tuition where the exit options will almost never pay for the loans incurred in going there. While I'm generally in favor of more higher educational opportunities for all, these AAMPLE programs and the law schools that use them really should be closed down for the good of the students who attend them, not to mention the tax payers who will ultimately foot their tuition loans. Does the ABA do anything to regulate these programs, or set any kind of floor for standards for admissions into law school? My guess is a big fat NO.

[LSAT Blog]

Professor Campos' blog is consistently excellent, and this post is no exception - investigating and calling attention to important issues in legal education. I highly recommend it.

Looks like AAMPLE is a mechanism for low-ranked schools to squeeze money out of those with even lower numbers, rather than turning them (and their money) away.

Reminds me of a practice at NYU (perhaps at other universities as well), where those rejected from PhD programs are invited to apply to a costly interdisciplinary master's program that isn't particularly likely to lead anywhere. Seems to serve as a nice cash cow for the university.

Details:

http://forum.thegradcafe.com/topic/12595-nyu-draper-ma
http://forum.thegradcafe.com/topic/2157 ... ram-at-nyu
http://applyingtograd.livejournal.com/1651526.html

[boredatwork]

Lol Kamaya's writing stlye is very evident in the comments section of Mr. Campos' article, not to mention the use of the same tired arguments (s)he used in this thread.

[thederangedwang]

Lol Kamaya's writing stlye is very evident in the comments section of Mr. Campos' article, not to mention the use of the same tired arguments (s)he used in this thread.

lol, haha, now that you mention it

[Mal Reynolds]

Lol Kamaya's writing stlye is very evident in the comments section of Mr. Campos' article, not to mention the use of the same tired arguments (s)he used in this thread.

lol, haha, now that you mention it

I honestly don't see what's wrong with this. If you're dumb enough to contemplate going to these schools and dumber enough to take the offer, you should know/deserve what you're getting yourself into.

This has kamaya written all over it, especially the bolded.

[stillwater]

I honestly don't see what's wrong with this. If you're dumb enough to contemplate going to these schools and dumber enough to take the offer, you should know/deserve what you're getting yourself into.

This has kamaya written all over it, especially the bolded.

I frequently try to incorporate "dumber enough" into my daily speech.

[newgirl]

Thank you everyone for your comments. The price for aample at Phoenix is actually only $500, and there was a 80% success rate last year which is why I was wondering if it seemed like a good way to participate and have a backup in case I don't get of the WL for my first choice

[mi-chan17]

I guess the figures I found were outdated; I'll take your word on them and alter my earlier post.

That said, the point still stands. A $500 lottery ticket for an 80% chance at spending $200,000 for a 5 (or less)% chance at a "good" job. This is still more expensive than a $150 retake.

There are some situations where someone has to go to law school that year or not go at all, but they are extremely rare, and since nothing here indicates that this is one of those rare times...I still think the better choice here (between AAMPLE and nothing, that is - I have no idea what school you're waiting on) is to sit it out and retake.

[tguer1]

Hey I got accepted into the AAMPLE program also for the Fall of 2012. I'm a 58 year old retired stockbroker who would like to go to law school. I'm blind in my right eye and have ADHD. I was just diagnosed with the ADHD this past summer. I knew something was up when I got all A's and B's in my major and C's, D's and F's in everything else. I left school at the end of my junior year and went back three years ago to finish. I had a 2.5 gap (played football and ran track and also partied a lot) but when I went back to school three years ago I had one A, three B+'s and two B's for a 3.2, not bad. All right lets get down to it, I went to Kaplan two years ago where I was scoring around 135 on my practice tests. I was only getting to 45 to 55 questions so in order to get a 135, I needed to get 50 to 60% of the questions right. I knew if I had more time I would get a better score. One of the teachers at Kaplan told me I should apply for accommodated testing so I did. I sent a 25 page report from my eye doctor. I was denied. We appealed and she wrote in her letter of appeal, "Suffering with traumatic hypermature cataract and complete retinal detachment in his right eye, Mr. XXXXXXX has only light perception acuity in his right eye. Ig is believed that this puts Mr. XXXXXXX at a substantial disadvantage to the other test takers with normal vision and the use of both eyes." and then she goes on to ask for more time. Denied. So I took the test and got to 51 questions and scored a 133. I'm sure you know how many school I got accepted to. When I went back to school I went to the disability resource center to see if they could hook me up with something else I could bring to LSAC. They hooked me up with a group of psychologist from the state university who were doing a study on adult reading. So I met with them and asked how soon can we do this. Within two weeks I was tested (I even got paid $135) and one of the things in the evaluation said that I had ADHD. I submitted this report to LSAC who said they wanted to take a psychoeducational evaluation. I did. The results the Doctor who administered the test explained a lot of things that I did when I was growing up. I had ADHD pretty bad and wrote a 37 page report with his suggestion of 30 extra minutes per session and, now heres something I wasn't asking for, 10 minute breaks between sessions. I submitted it and guess what, DENIED. They said that I never had any accommodations in elementary school, high school or college. This time I wrote the letter of appeal and stated that I was in elementary school 45 years ago, high school 40 years ago and college 35 years ago, then I went on to site the AMA by saying ADD wasn't discovered until 1980 and the name changed to ADHD so they never knew what was wrong with me. I had problems in elementary school where I couldn't sit for long periods of time and was always getting up in the middle of class and go look out the window. They wrote back and said they were standing by their ruling. I took the test this past December (in the middle of my therapists drug trials on me) they had me on one medication when I took the test that scrambled my brain. Now they got me on something else that seems to be working for me. So I truly appreciate the opportunity that is being offered to me by Phoenix School of Law and I'm coming from the northeast. For the money part of it, like I said a little earlier I'm 58 I'll die before I pay off my loan. So yeah, if you got accepted then go and take your chance. Maybe we will meet when we take our finals. Good luck and for those of you snobs who want to put PSL down, it's a law school thats going to teach the same stuff that your going to learn at another law school.

[Ludo!]

It's not snobbish to care about getting a job out of law school. It's fine for you if you just want to go for fun but for most of your classmates this is a disastrous decision