If I knew a smart, well-pedigreed kid who was considering LS Forum

[DoubleChecks]

This thread fucking blows, from the stupid OP to the uninformed responses that follow.

LIES! I am well edumacated.

[swoozie]

Going the med school route, I speak from experience: (1)Science is pretty boring if you like to think big picture, which most lawyerly types do. (2) The first two years of med school are cool, the final two absolutely suck as you are what we like to call in medicine, "the scut puppy." This means that you will spend your time kissing as much *^# as possible, getting coffee for the attending, sucking up to the resident, and then trying to learn enough in the few precious moments you have to be able to pass your exams at the end of your rotation. 60-80 hour weeks in the hospital those last two years and then you have to study outside of the hospital so that you kinda look like you might know what you are talking about some day. And, by the way, NO SUMMERS OFF after year two of med school! Not glamorous. (3) Then you bust your absolute *^# getting into a residency program in a field that interests you (ie: makes a good living and has a not-so-kill-yourself-terrible lifestyle) and not in the middle of absolute nowhere. And, once you do, you have like a month to celebrate your successes before the real hell starts. It isn't just the long hours in residency... we all will work very hard at some point. Let's just put it this way, they had to pass resident labor laws to restrict work weeks to 80 hours and so restrict single shifts to 30 hours at once with a mandatory 10 hour break between shifts. And, these laws are broken ALL OF THE TIME. But, like I said, it isn't just the long hours and crap pay (40K annual) for between 3-8 years of your prime- it is the RISK and REALITY of illness. I was sick my entire residency. I was perpetually living in fear that I would get stuck with a needle and contract HIV from a patient. I was perpetually living in fear that the homeless patients coughing down the hall was going to give me TB. And, I was living in the reality that I got bronchitis 2-3 times per year, was hospitalized with meningitis, contracted MRSA, etc. Not glamorous. (4) Finally, you get to practice medicine with 200K in debt, still working 50-60hr weeks, and getting paid marginally well. So, unless you absolutely LOVE LOVE LOVE taking care of sick people, I would choose another profession. It is certainly not a default to law! And, we (the medical field) don't need people who don't want to be there and aren't going to be happy serving people... it is depressing enough taking care of sick people day in and day out... we don't need someone who starts the game off already doing it for the wrong reasons! Go to LS!

Your first point is right on the mark, I'm someone who has a "hard science" degree and I've been working in an otherwise pretty good job for the past two years...you work on a project, maybe two (and nothing else!) for 1-2 years each. Scientific research goes wrong much more often than it goes right, and it can be incredibly monotonous. Some people absolutely thrive in environments like these, but to me, it just felt really confining. You can go to graduate school and work on one project for 4-5 years nonstop, get a shiny degree and then what? Go into academia or get a job that someone with a bachelor's has already been working at for years? Plus some engineers I knew were awesome at engineering but absolutely sucked at bio. There's a different set of study skills/mentality/etc, not all sciences are equal.

Med school might have a better job market, but you probably won't see return from the best jobs until you're in your 30s, and that's going straight from undergrad at 22 or something. The first two years don't even sound that cool to me, you're studying your ass off to do well in your courses, and then you get to study your ass off for boards. Now all of my med school friends are already freaking out over the matching process though it's still a year away (did all you advocates of med school know you get matched to one, and only one, residency program 4th year and that's where you have to go? or wait a year or go nowhere or scramble to try to find a spot at whatever is left aka the positions no one else wanted to rank high enough...it's a ranking process and if your ranking doesn't happen to match up well with the ranking your programs give you, you might end up with no match at all). My friends are working 8-8 or 6-8 or 6-5 every day on rotations, plus they're on call so that they get roughly ~2-3 days off a month including weekends. Plus my best friend has been consistently sick since she started her peds rotation. But yeah...clearly everyone should go to med school.

[Blessedassurance]

.

[Angrygeopolitically]

Lawyers come a dime a dozen these days.

The 20th century was kind to the lawyers, but by now the corporations are slowly squeezing lawyers out of the picture.

In texas, workers can't even get their day in court anymore when it comes to work place injuries or abuse, it has been regulated to the point that a worker has no real say in his predicament.

With tort reform in texas, the prospects look even worse for lawyers in malpractice, negligence, and injury law.

Now, if you want to just go to school get out, and get a job, get yourself a solid MBA from a top school. The 21st century is the age of corporates in America, and with the increased move towards globalization, you might be able to get some travelling in your work.


The truth is, with corporates squeezing out the lawyers, and the disappearence of the middle class, (new)lawyers will not have alot of choices, and it will be tough for atleast a decade. I know lawyers who graduated t30-15 , making 45-55k working for the governement to put people in jail for drugs and domestic violence. Some "flashy life" that is.


With all that said, iam going to law school to learn how to talk and persuade and run for office at a later date.

thats about it.

good luck yall, from the Texas Hill Country.

Hill Country?

[Patriot1208]

Yeah, I had the same question. A large swathe weren't allowed to participate? Or didn't get interviews? Or didn't get callbacks? Or didn't get jobs? What are you saying, Curious?

I'm surprised this could happen because there were a few students from GULC who got Biglaw jobs. Since NYU=6 and GULC=14, shouldn't almost all NYU students get jobs before the 1st GULC student? It's not like you can't send a resume from New York to DC by e-mail today and travel to an interview.

......................................................

[rayiner]

Yeah, I had the same question. A large swathe weren't allowed to participate? Or didn't get interviews? Or didn't get callbacks? Or didn't get jobs? What are you saying, Curious?

I'm surprised this could happen because there were a few students from GULC who got Biglaw jobs. Since NYU=6 and GULC=14, shouldn't almost all NYU students get jobs before the 1st GULC student? It's not like you can't send a resume from New York to DC by e-mail today and travel to an interview.

......................................................

Yeah. In case jim-green isn't joking, firms consider top 1/3 at NYU ~= to top 1/5 at GULC.

Tons of people got nothing at 2010 OCI from NYU and CLS. Both reported 70% of participants getting something out of OCI.

[DoubleChecks]

I know I would enjoy it more than chemistry or biology or economics. What other career options exist?

How do you know?

Which is different from the other chain etc.

Actually my original argument was going to be a rant on how the perceived non-existence of other career options available to the shitty-major degree-holders coupled with the view of law as some sort of default refuge/hideout is partly responsible for...etc etc

But I'm drinking whiskey. I can't be bothered.

I won't comment on your original argument, but as far as knowing he would like law more than chem or bio...lol, assuming he's a big enough boy and has had plenty of contact with science classes/reading and writing, I think it is safe to say he knows lol. Unless you mean on some metaphysical level where one never truly knows haha. For example, I KNOW I enjoy law more than math...partly because I enjoy reading and writing and partly because I abhor math. Yes, I've taken many math courses before in my life.

[Robespierre]

Yeah, I had the same question. A large swathe weren't allowed to participate? Or didn't get interviews? Or didn't get callbacks? Or didn't get jobs? What are you saying, Curious?

I'm surprised this could happen because there were a few students from GULC who got Biglaw jobs. Since NYU=6 and GULC=14, shouldn't almost all NYU students get jobs before the 1st GULC student? It's not like you can't send a resume from New York to DC by e-mail today and travel to an interview.

......................................................

Yeah. In case jim-green isn't joking, firms consider top 1/3 at NYU ~= to top 1/5 at GULC.

Tons of people got nothing at 2010 OCI from NYU and CLS. Both reported 70% of participants getting something out of OCI.

By "got nothing," do you mean got no job, or got no interviews? If it's the former, I'm not surprised; not everyone's gonna get a job thru OCI. If it's the latter, I'd be shocked. Not even one interview?

If it's a dumb question from a OL, I apologize.

[Curious1]

I know I would enjoy it more than chemistry or biology or economics. What other career options exist?

How do you know?

Which is different from the other chain etc.

Actually my original argument was going to be a rant on how the perceived non-existence of other career options available to the shitty-major degree-holders coupled with the view of law as some sort of default refuge/hideout is partly responsible for...etc etc

But I'm drinking whiskey. I can't be bothered.

I won't comment on your original argument, but as far as knowing he would like law more than chem or bio...lol, assuming he's a big enough boy and has had plenty of contact with science classes/reading and writing, I think it is safe to say he knows lol. Unless you mean on some metaphysical level where one never truly knows haha. For example, I KNOW I enjoy law more than math...partly because I enjoy reading and writing and partly because I abhor math. Yes, I've taken many math courses before in my life.

This discussion just got awesome.

But I know what you mean, and being a lawyer is going to be tough. I've been trying to condition myself into reading law review articles and find them horrible. Are good lawyers supposed to love reading them?

Also I've sat in on law classes at my local law school and found them to be tolerable, only if I only went to see tiger mom in action.

[Kronk]

TITCR, IMO:

Depends on the person.

If the person is 100% sure they want to do BigLaw (not even midlaw, i.e. the jobs in Denver that still pay 120k or so starting) and would not want to be a lawyer at all otherwise or have options where they would make more money / be happier than in a "normal" 60k-70k lawyering job, I would say don't go to law school unless you can get into HYSC. Even with Harvard and Columbia there area few people that strike out, but not enough to deter someone, in my opinion.

If the person wanted BigLaw, but was reasonably happy with midlaw job or a job making less money in an office with not as many lawyers, I would say go to law school as long as you get into a top ten or top 14 school or have a huge scholarship at somewhere in the top fifty that does well in the region. This also goes if the person just wants to be a lawyer at a job that isn't totally boring.

If someone is reasonably sure they want to pursue government or public interest work, I would tell them to go to law school as long as they can get into a school in the top twenty or so or go to a law school that dominates a a specific region like CU - Boulder and Denver dominate Colorado. Hopefully (but not necessarily) the school with have some sort of LRAP. Even if they don't the PSLF and IBR should make this an alright option. Although relying on programs like that is pretty scary, as least to me.

If you have a family tie that can nab you a job, like your dad is the hiring partner at a firm in town, all of the above doesn't apply.

But everyone is different. I feel like the whole "don't go to law school!" thing comes from the vantage point of law being a huge money-making profession. There were never a lot of those jobs and there are even less now, so it was never smart to attend a school outside the Top-14 if you ONLY wanted BigLaw or well-paying midlaw. Now it's just probably not smart to attend a school outside the top ten unless you have a scholarship.

But there are plenty of law jobs for people who just want to practice law and aren't as concerned with money for about the top 50 law schools to place all their students. It's just the other 150+ that fuck it up for everyone.

[rayiner]

I'm surprised this could happen because there were a few students from GULC who got Biglaw jobs. Since NYU=6 and GULC=14, shouldn't almost all NYU students get jobs before the 1st GULC student? It's not like you can't send a resume from New York to DC by e-mail today and travel to an interview.

......................................................

Yeah. In case jim-green isn't joking, firms consider top 1/3 at NYU ~= to top 1/5 at GULC.

Tons of people got nothing at 2010 OCI from NYU and CLS. Both reported 70% of participants getting something out of OCI.

By "got nothing," do you mean got no job, or got no interviews? If it's the former, I'm not surprised; not everyone's gonna get a job thru OCI. If it's the latter, I'd be shocked. Not even one interview?

If it's a dumb question from a OL, I apologize.

No jobs. Everyone at CLS/NYU gets 20+ interviews---it's lottery-based. And yes it's surprising. Check out this quote from the CLS law school profile: "Securing employment at top law firms has been likened to ‘shooting fish in a barrel’ by some Columbia graduates." (this was obviously written pre-ITE). Before the recession, pretty much everyone at CLS/NYU who wanted a big firm job got one. People below median were getting V10 firms.

[Kronk]

By "got nothing," do you mean got no job, or got no interviews? If it's the former, I'm not surprised; not everyone's gonna get a job thru OCI. If it's the latter, I'd be shocked. Not even one interview?

If it's a dumb question from a OL, I apologize.

No jobs. Everyone at CLS/NYU gets 20+ interviews---it's lottery-based. And yes it's surprising. Check out this quote from the CLS law school profile: "Securing employment at top law firms has been likened to ‘shooting fish in a barrel’ by some Columbia graduates." (this was obviously written pre-ITE). Before the recession, pretty much everyone at CLS/NYU who wanted a big firm job got one. People below median were getting V10 firms.

I think this should be qualified. Everyone gets screeners--especially at a top ten school. You get 20 or so. But not everyone gets a callback, even at NYU and CLS. There are people that get 20 and people that get none.

[rayiner]

How do you know?

Which is different from the other chain etc.

Actually my original argument was going to be a rant on how the perceived non-existence of other career options available to the shitty-major degree-holders coupled with the view of law as some sort of default refuge/hideout is partly responsible for...etc etc

But I'm drinking whiskey. I can't be bothered.

I won't comment on your original argument, but as far as knowing he would like law more than chem or bio...lol, assuming he's a big enough boy and has had plenty of contact with science classes/reading and writing, I think it is safe to say he knows lol. Unless you mean on some metaphysical level where one never truly knows haha. For example, I KNOW I enjoy law more than math...partly because I enjoy reading and writing and partly because I abhor math. Yes, I've taken many math courses before in my life.

This discussion just got awesome.

But I know what you mean, and being a lawyer is going to be tough. I've been trying to condition myself into reading law review articles and find them horrible. Are good lawyers supposed to love reading them?

Also I've sat in on law classes at my local law school and found them to be tolerable, only if I only went to see tiger mom in action.

No, only academics like reading law review articles.

Being a practicing corporate lawyer is a mix of cool things and "WTF" things.

At lower levels, you do things like circle-ups. Which is literally going through an SEC filing and circling every number and noting whether it needs backup from accounting (if a revenue figure or something like that) or the deal team (if it's something like the number of stores a company has). Then you get back a bunch of data and you go back through the circled figures to verify that they match the data. This is one of the "WTF" things.

At higher levels you do stuff like negotiate with your counter-party's lawyer to settle a claim in a bankruptcy proceeding for less than face value. Do background research on the law and be like "look you've got like a Q% chance of winning this in front of the judge and it'll cost you $X to litigate; why not just take our offer of $Y?"

Ultimately you're an advisor. Clients call you up and ask things like "we're thinking of doing X, what problems might you run into?"

ALSO: Chemistry and Biology are no fun and economics is more bullshit than even law.

[Curious1]

No, only academics like reading law review articles.

Being a practicing corporate lawyer is a mix of cool things and "WTF" things.

At lower levels, you do things like circle-ups. Which is literally going through an SEC filing and circling every number and noting whether it needs backup from accounting (if a revenue figure or something like that) or the deal team (if it's something like the number of stores a company has). Then you get back a bunch of data and you go back through the circled figures to verify that they match the data. This is one of the "WTF" things.

At higher levels you do stuff like negotiate with your counter-party's lawyer to settle a claim in a bankruptcy proceeding for less than face value. Do background research on the law and be like "look you've got like a Q% chance of winning this in front of the judge and it'll cost you $X to litigate; why not just take our offer of $Y?"

Ultimately you're an advisor. Clients call you up and ask things like "we're thinking of doing X, what problems might you run into?"

ALSO: Chemistry and Biology are no fun and economics is more bullshit than even law.


Report this post

This is sweet, thanks.

That's basically what I thought--at lower levels you do shitwork, which is fine, and the higher up you get, the more it becomes a sales job where you have to pitch clients. I keep hearing about this "doc review", and I'm sure it's necessary in big firms as well. Is that something farmed out to young associates? I've heard one way they want to get rid of you is to saddle you to tons of doc review, is that true?

Definitely sounds better than working as a doctor (unless it's like one of those doctors in House who seem to just sit around in huge offices looking at paperwork all day)

[msu1077]

I think its stupid not to be born into money. Fuckin tards everywhere.

I lol'd. This thread needed this.

+1 ROFL

[SarahKerrigan]

I find it very interesting that the career options being discussed here consist entirely of doctor/lawyer/ibanking. The real money is in business, particularly entrepreneurship, but I guess the crowd here is too risk-averse for that kind of thing...

[Blessedassurance]

I won't comment on your original argument, but as far as knowing he would like law more than chem or bio...lol, assuming he's a big enough boy and has had plenty of contact with science classes/reading and writing, I think it is safe to say he knows lol. Unless you mean on some metaphysical level where one never truly knows haha. For example, I KNOW I enjoy law more than math...partly because I enjoy reading and writing and partly because I abhor math. Yes, I've taken many math courses before in my life.

Actually, I was talking about the practice of law. Then again he doesn't even know he'll like the study of law to begin with. Even if he does, he doesn't know he'll like the practice of law (especially BigLaw) and so on and so forth.

[Curious1]

Actually, I was talking about the practice of law. Then again he doesn't even know he'll like the study of law to begin with. Even if he does, he doesn't know he'll like the practice of law (especially BigLaw) and so on and so forth.

So...what are you saying? I should go to med school for a month, see if I like it there, then business school for another month, then law school and compare the experiences?

No 0L can know if he would enjoy practicing law. In fact, no one trying to get into something can know if he would enjoy it. Why don't we just sit at home and play video games until we die? I would enjoy that.

EDIT: Wtf? You're a 0L? How do you know YOU would like it?

[Blessedassurance]

No 0L can know if he would enjoy practicing law.

No shit.

In fact, no one trying to get into something can know if he would enjoy it. Why don't we just sit at home and play video games until we die? I would enjoy that.

Wait, how old are you?

EDIT: Wtf? You're a 0L? How do you know YOU would like it?

I don't. I don't pretend to.

[Curious1]

So what's your point? Why are you discouraging me from going then?

And everyone enjoys sitting at home and playing video games.

[Kronk]

Do you like reading overly-verbose, uppity opinions of dead white dudes!? Do you enjoy writing briefs and memos where you are required to cite the source for literally every sentence!? Do you enjoy restating your argument, like, a bajillion times over the course of a twenty page, should-be-five-pages brief!?

If the answers are yes, law school may be for YOU! Call 1-(517) 371-5140 now!

[Blessedassurance]

So what's your point? Why are you discouraging me from going then?

I'm not discouraging you. I'm hinting at the fact that you don't know if you'll enjoy being a lawyer.

And everyone enjoys sitting at home and playing video games.

Hate to burst your bubble kiddo, but there's like a world out there. Whiskey, sex, real adventure. You know, like life.

[bport hopeful]

And everyone enjoys sitting at home and playing video games.

Hate to burst your bubble kiddo, but there's like a world out there. Whiskey, sex, real adventure. You know, like life.

This is dumb. Video games rock, and Ive prolly boned and drank more than most on this damn site.

Also, people who say "Whiskey" to describe drinking are ass holes.

[Curious1]

And everyone enjoys sitting at home and playing video games.

Hate to burst your bubble kiddo, but there's like a world out there. Whiskey, sex, real adventure. You know, like life.

This is dumb. Video games rock, and Ive prolly boned and drank more than most on this damn site.

Also, people who say "Whiskey" to describe drinking are ass holes.

My sentiments exactly. Someone who scoffs at something and say "why aren't you having sex?" is probably not getting any.

Thank you.

[bport hopeful]

And everyone enjoys sitting at home and playing video games.

Hate to burst your bubble kiddo, but there's like a world out there. Whiskey, sex, real adventure. You know, like life.

This is dumb. Video games rock, and Ive prolly boned and drank more than most on this damn site.

Also, people who say "Whiskey" to describe drinking are ass holes.

My sentiments exactly. Someone who scoffs at something and say "why aren't you having sex?" is probably not getting any.

Thank you.

Got you dogg.