My observation about the people on this board Forum

[98234872348]

That may be true, but my understanding is that clerking for a trial state judge in most states is not impressive, engaging, or fulfilling, and the pay is generally crap. And Professor Campos is absolutely correct that almost all students would take a full time, real job over some mundane, low-paying, dead-end clerking position with a Montana state family court judge or something.

This is actually true. Most of the time, however, this is not considered a "clerkship" and I didn't think that is what OP meant when he posted. It is typically referred to as a "staff attorney position."

[scammedhard]

But hey, I'm a 1L, so maybe my perception is incorrect.

That's right. You are just a 1L. Maybe we should take this tread to the Scambloggers if so many TLSers are looking for "more experience."

[GatorStudent]

That may be true, but my understanding is that clerking for a trial state judge in most states is not impressive, engaging, or fulfilling, and the pay is generally crap. And Professor Campos is absolutely correct that almost all students would take a full time, real job over some mundane, low-paying, dead-end clerking position with a Montana state family court judge or something.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to clerk. I'd even consider doing a state appellate clerkship over a job (Campos exempted these from his numbers). But I (and almost all others I know) will pass on state trial court if I have a real job, so I think he is spot on for not counting them as full-time, permanently employed.

But hey, I'm a 1L, so maybe my perception is incorrect.

Oh, by "state clerkship," you mean the trial court level?

If so, I probably agree with you. The pay is fairly low, and I haven't heard of it creating many opportunities for people. But an appellate-level clerkship is an entirely different ballgame.

[romothesavior]

Oh, by "state clerkship," you mean the trial court level?

If so, I probably agree with you. The pay is fairly low, and I haven't heard of it creating many opportunities for people. But an appellate-level clerkship is an entirely different ballgame.

I may have misunderstood you. My bad. Yeah, appellate court clerkships vary by state and by region. I've heard of people getting biglaw out of a state appellate clerkship when their grades should have meant they had no business getting biglaw.

[GatorStudent]

This is actually true. Most of the time, however, this is not considered a "clerkship" and I didn't think that is what OP meant when he posted. It is typically referred to as a "staff attorney position."

Yeah, in "our" state, state trial court clerkships are normally referred to as "staff attorney" positions. However, it is important to note that at the appellate levels, there are clerks for individual judges AND staff attorneys who are clerks for the entire Court. Just some helpful information.

[romothesavior]

But hey, I'm a 1L, so maybe my perception is incorrect.

That's right. You are just a 1L. Maybe we should take this tread to the Scambloggers if so many TLSers are looking for "more experience."

I've read the scam blogs, I know what's up. It is kinda hard to be blind to it when you're in law school, even as a 1L. I know I don't have a ton of experience, but that doesn't mean I'm clueless.

[GatorStudent]

I may have misunderstood you. My bad. Yeah, appellate court clerkships vary by state and by region. I've heard of people getting biglaw out of a state appellate clerkship when their grades should have meant they had no business getting biglaw.

No problem. It's easy to have misunderstandings on a message board.

Well, if people can get nice gigs with grades that normally wouldn't allow them to do so, then theoretically it's likely that state appellate clerks will do better in the future. As I stated before, I've known people who have had quite a few judges tell them that the judges are ecstatic at the quality of the applicants. They're getting "biglaw-quality" (read as: good grades/experiences/etc.) applicants that they never got before. Just something to think about.

[drummerboy]

for gods sake, cant anyone of these indolent, self righteous, TLS users give anyone a break. OP is someone that has gone thru the process and is fully aware of its pitfalls. I believe he is in a great position to give advice. It wouldnt hurt these DBS to listen for a change and perhaps learn something from someone with experience. If securing a job requires any kind of people skills, these arrogant few are in serious jeopardy. IMO

[tittsburghfeelers]

for gods sake, cant anyone of these indolent, self righteous, TLS users give anyone a break. OP is someone that has gone thru the process and is fully aware of its pitfalls. I believe he is in a great position to give advice. It wouldnt hurt these DBS to listen for a change and perhaps learn something from someone with experience. If securing a job requires any kind of people skills, these arrogant few are in serious jeopardy. IMO

+1

[DoubleChecks]

for gods sake, cant anyone of these indolent, self righteous, TLS users give anyone a break. OP is someone that has gone thru the process and is fully aware of its pitfalls. I believe he is in a great position to give advice. It wouldnt hurt these DBS to listen for a change and perhaps learn something from someone with experience. If securing a job requires any kind of people skills, these arrogant few are in serious jeopardy. IMO

i dont think thats what some ppl were saying. i think some were just pointing out that what OP thinks is a happy/good position to be in, others may not agree (subjective). and i also think there were some earlier posters talking about how $100k is less debt than what others may be getting into (ex: $200k).

[scammedhard]

I think this tread has lost direction. People are just rambling.

[reasonable_man]

I look forward to you all joining this great profession.

This great profession?

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Don't act like this horse shit that law school is or that the cut-and-paste horse shit that most lawyers do is somehow ennobling.

True fucking story.

[aliarrow]

I think this tread has lost direction. People are just rambling.

lol rambling like you know what youre talking about. Hard work and such will make it possible to be a good lawyer if you go to an ok school. People one these boards act like you need to go to harvard just to be a lawyer and its ridiculous that you always have to retake and reapply no matter what or else youre just going to end up working at starbucks. not that there is anything wrong with that.
I really hope you open your eyes and get some real world experience instead of just hanging out on online forums telling people how bad it is out there. do you even know? how much work experience do you have? yeah thats what I thought. People become lawyers EVERY DAY, it is a huge profession with plenty of room for more. If you work hard and actually want to be a lawyer you can do it, geez.

[drummerboy]

+1 I also do understand the concept of his debt being more manageable. clearly 100k is more manageable than 200k. however, his experience has to be worth something to someone.

[DoubleChecks]

I think this tread has lost direction. People are just rambling.

lol rambling like you know what youre talking about. Hard work and such will make it possible to be a good lawyer if you go to an ok school. People one these boards act like you need to go to harvard just to be a lawyer and its ridiculous that you always have to retake and reapply no matter what or else youre just going to end up working at starbucks. not that there is anything wrong with that.
I really hope you open your eyes and get some real world experience instead of just hanging out on online forums telling people how bad it is out there. do you even know? how much work experience do you have? yeah thats what I thought. People become lawyers EVERY DAY, it is a huge profession with plenty of room for more. If you work hard and actually want to be a lawyer you can do it, geez.

lol are we reading the same threads? i see more threads that complain about how TLSers have the bolded mentality and say the bolded than i do on threads that actually espouse the bolded haha

[aliarrow]

I think this tread has lost direction. People are just rambling.

lol rambling like you know what youre talking about. Hard work and such will make it possible to be a good lawyer if you go to an ok school. People one these boards act like you need to go to harvard just to be a lawyer and its ridiculous that you always have to retake and reapply no matter what or else youre just going to end up working at starbucks. not that there is anything wrong with that.
I really hope you open your eyes and get some real world experience instead of just hanging out on online forums telling people how bad it is out there. do you even know? how much work experience do you have? yeah thats what I thought. People become lawyers EVERY DAY, it is a huge profession with plenty of room for more. If you work hard and actually want to be a lawyer you can do it, geez.

lol are we reading the same threads? i see more threads that complain about how TLSers have the bolded mentality and say the bolded than i do on threads that actually espouse the bolded haha

I think it seems worse when you're a noob and you can't distinguish who is and isn't credible. When you just post an advice thread and have 20 random 0Ls with 30 posts trying to gain rep shouting "RETAKE LULZ" it paints a picture of TLS. The vets are all pretty reasonable though, and the humor is distinguishable.

I wasn't serious in that post, I just wanted to ramble.

[scammedhard]

lol rambling like you know what youre talking about. Hard work and such will make it possible to be a good lawyer if you go to an ok school. People one these boards act like you need to go to harvard just to be a lawyer and its ridiculous that you always have to retake and reapply no matter what or else youre just going to end up working at starbucks. not that there is anything wrong with that.
I really hope you open your eyes and get some real world experience instead of just hanging out on online forums telling people how bad it is out there. do you even know? how much work experience do you have? yeah thats what I thought. People become lawyers EVERY DAY, it is a huge profession with plenty of room for more. If you work hard and actually want to be a lawyer you can do it, geez.

Ha, ha, ha. Great profession... Don't believe me? Fine, go to fucking Monster, Craigslist, etc and see for yourself what this great profession gets you these days.

[Patriot1208]

I think you can be a good lawyer going to a lower ranked school, just not gtown

[DoubleChecks]

I think this tread has lost direction. People are just rambling.

lol rambling like you know what youre talking about. Hard work and such will make it possible to be a good lawyer if you go to an ok school. People one these boards act like you need to go to harvard just to be a lawyer and its ridiculous that you always have to retake and reapply no matter what or else youre just going to end up working at starbucks. not that there is anything wrong with that.
I really hope you open your eyes and get some real world experience instead of just hanging out on online forums telling people how bad it is out there. do you even know? how much work experience do you have? yeah thats what I thought. People become lawyers EVERY DAY, it is a huge profession with plenty of room for more. If you work hard and actually want to be a lawyer you can do it, geez.

lol are we reading the same threads? i see more threads that complain about how TLSers have the bolded mentality and say the bolded than i do on threads that actually espouse the bolded haha

I think it seems worse when you're a noob and you can't distinguish who is and isn't credible. When you just post an advice thread and have 20 random 0Ls with 30 posts trying to gain rep shouting "RETAKE LULZ" it paints a picture of TLS. The vets are all pretty reasonable though, and the humor is distinguishable.

I wasn't serious in that post, I just wanted to ramble.

you might actually have a point there -- my eyes have been trained to gloss over sub-100 posters lol

[tortsmakemehot10]

Unless you know people, are going to T-14, or at least getting money from a top 100, then DONT GO TO LAW SCHOOL. PERIOD.

[beachbum]

I thought this was gonna be some ranting claim about how we're all asshole sheep-people who are just in it for the money, how we would never act like our Internet tough-guy personas IRL, and how we don't know the first thing about law school/the legal market/the real world/where babies come from. Highly disappointed.

[Rock Chalk]

What I have seen is lots of people telling others not to go WITHOUT SUBSTANTIAL SCHOLARSHIP (or in-state tuition, if applicable) to places like Mississippi College, or Cleveland Marshall, or Vermont, or Tulane, or even GWU, etc, etc, etc.

This. Most of the advice OP and others characterize as elitist or misguided comes in the form of solicited responses based on career goals and rebuttals of misinformation. OP went to a T-30, and I honestly can't remember the last time someone was told not go to to a T-30 with a good scholarship (which you'll need these days to graduate with $100k in debt) in the absence of countervailing concerns (i.e. wanting to live in CA and weighing UNC vs W&L, etc.).

The tough truth is that there are law schools that are not worth attending, there are even more not worth paying for, and the vast majority aren't worth sticker. Any advice to the contrary is just misleading.

[firemed]

I think OP is being a little unfair to us. While sometimes 0L get above their station spouting BS (I have done it once or twice, unfortunately) generally speaking the advice on here isn't "If you don't go to T14 you won't get a job" so much as "If you pay sticker for a school outside of the T14 you may well regret it, because a lot of people don't get jobs."

I don't think there is anything unfair in that. I might only be a 0L and not know much about legal hiring, but I did take some statistics classes, and I know what (at it's rosiest) 70% employment in legal (JD required) means. Telling people not to go to a T3 (unless strong regional) or a T4 at sticker doesn't make me a bad person... it makes me an informed consumer trying to educate others.

[DoubleChecks]

What I have seen is lots of people telling others not to go WITHOUT SUBSTANTIAL SCHOLARSHIP (or in-state tuition, if applicable) to places like Mississippi College, or Cleveland Marshall, or Vermont, or Tulane, or even GWU, etc, etc, etc.

This. Most of the advice OP and others characterize as elitist or misguided comes in the form of solicited responses based on career goals and rebuttals of misinformation. OP went to a T-30, and I honestly can't remember the last time someone was told not go to to a T-30 with a good scholarship (which you'll need these days to graduate with $100k in debt) in the absence of countervailing concerns (i.e. wanting to live in CA and weighing UNC vs W&L, etc.).

The tough truth is that there are law schools that are not worth attending, there are even more not worth paying for, and the vast majority aren't worth sticker. Any advice to the contrary is just misleading.

this is a good point. i think that even today, general TLS wisdom would tell a person going to a T20-T30 w/ a good scholarship that it would be a horrible idea. i think it'd be split, depending on his goals -- with some against it and others for it, and i think OP's results speak to that borderline TLS reaction, which imo, would have been warranted. i dont think they'd be shouting retake unless OP had 4.0 or 3.9 GPA, but thats more a result of TLS' other belief that you shouldnt squander a good GPA as ugrad prestige hardly matters and the LSAT is learnable (by far the best investment of one's time for money in most cases) -- something i also agree with.

[AreJay711]

You know what though? If someone hears all the nay sayers and decides that he or she wants to go to a school ranked 20-30 anyway then that is a good thing. As long as they know they won't likely be making big money right away. I think the over the top negativness only scares the people away that shouldn't be in law school.