Class of 2010 firm hiring data posted Forum

[KMaine]

Cornell historically sends lots of kids to NLJ250 firms, specifically firms outside biglaw but still within the 250. The name has cachet with those firms, but biglaw won't touch that many cornellians. When kids from NYU show up at those firms for interviews they are viewed with suspicion. The firms assume they will jump to biglaw just as soon as they can. Not so with the cornell students! So more of them get a foot in.

Where are you getting this from? Seems like baseless speculation to me. The leaked data from the 2010 and 2011 classes doesn't really seem to reflect this.

+1 could you provide some backup for this?

I am bored and accordingly can refute this. According to the OCI data that was leaked to ATL last year, 12 members of Cornell's class of 2010 went to non-Vault 100 firms, and 5 of those firms are not NLJ 250 firms (and accordingly wouldn't effect this survey). So roughly 105 of the 112 Cornell students at NLJ 250 firms in this survey are at Vault 100 firms. So 54.7% of Cornell's class of 2010 went to Vault 100 firms.

You could get ahead on the Fed. Courts reading.
On a related note, I go to Cornell and will be working at a non-Valut 100, NLJ 250 next summer. However, I don't think it is because they think their firm is beneath higher ranked schools. There will be 4 times the number of Harvard students as Cornell students in my summer class.

[Arbiter213]

I go to Cornell and will be working at a non-Valut 100, NLJ 250 next summer... There will be 4 times the number of Harvard students as Cornell students in my summer class.

So, there will be at least 4 Harvard graduates working at non-Vault 100, NLJ 250 firm next summer.

[Master Tofu]

You could get ahead on the Fed. Courts reading.
On a related note, I go to Cornell and will be working at a non-Valut 100, NLJ 250 next summer. However, I don't think it is because they think their firm is beneath higher ranked schools. There will be 4 times the number of Harvard students as Cornell students in my summer class.

Is this firm in NY? Boutique?

[FiveSermon]

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1

Compare with:

Class of 2009: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2443758843

Class of 2008: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2428438260

Class of 2008 every T14 school except Gtown place > 50% in the NLJ 250, and Gtown placed 49%. Class of 2010 (which did OCI in 2008, pre-crash) sees only four schools with more than 50% placed.

And keep in mind that class of 2011 will likely be even worse.

Just wondering 2008 is pre-crash? When was the crash?

[Other25BeforeYou]

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1

Compare with:

Class of 2009: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2443758843

Class of 2008: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2428438260

Class of 2008 every T14 school except Gtown place > 50% in the NLJ 250, and Gtown placed 49%. Class of 2010 (which did OCI in 2008, pre-crash) sees only four schools with more than 50% placed.

And keep in mind that class of 2011 will likely be even worse.

Just wondering 2008 is pre-crash? When was the crash?

The crash was in 2008. Class of 2008 got their post-graduation offers at the end of Summer 2007.

[thesealocust]

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1

Compare with:

Class of 2009: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2443758843

Class of 2008: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2428438260

Class of 2008 every T14 school except Gtown place > 50% in the NLJ 250, and Gtown placed 49%. Class of 2010 (which did OCI in 2008, pre-crash) sees only four schools with more than 50% placed.

And keep in mind that class of 2011 will likely be even worse.

Just wondering 2008 is pre-crash? When was the crash?

It's complicated by how law school hiring works. The crash was Fall 2008, so the "class of 2008" data is completely free from economic free-fall influence.

For class of 2009, they had already received offers of full time employment after 2L summer programs, so the only effect of the crash was on firms that pulled the plug even on them.

For class of 2010, they had done OCI in the fall just before / during the crash. Many failed to receive offers after their 2L SA, which was in 2009.

For class of 2011, they had OCI in 2009, which was probably the worst in modern times.

Class of 2012 are 2Ls now, and had a somewhat hard but not awful OCI.

[FiveSermon]

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1

Compare with:

Class of 2009: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2443758843

Class of 2008: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2428438260

Class of 2008 every T14 school except Gtown place > 50% in the NLJ 250, and Gtown placed 49%. Class of 2010 (which did OCI in 2008, pre-crash) sees only four schools with more than 50% placed.

And keep in mind that class of 2011 will likely be even worse.

Just wondering 2008 is pre-crash? When was the crash?

It's complicated by how law school hiring works. The crash was Fall 2008, so the "class of 2008" data is completely free from economic free-fall influence.

For class of 2009, they had already received offers of full time employment after 2L summer programs, so the only effect of the crash was on firms that pulled the plug even on them.

For class of 2010, they had done OCI in the fall just before / during the crash. Many failed to receive offers after their 2L SA, which was in 2009.

For class of 2011, they had OCI in 2009, which was probably the worst in modern times.

Class of 2012 are 2Ls now, and had a somewhat hard but not awful OCI.

So class of 2012 is mot likely to be like 2010? It's weird because the class of 2008-->2009 showed immense decline which seems to show that hiring was affected by the crash.

[rayiner]

WTF happened with Duke?

why is that surprising to you?

Their drop is unreal. Honestly, I hate to bash them like this but NO top 14 school should be placing less than 40 percent in biglaw. That's to a point where I don't even feel comfortable calling them (or GULC) top 14. 38 percent???? That's horrible! I'm going to stop telling people that Duke and UVA are basically the same.

am i reading this right that duke dropped from 10th to 12th? how is that an unreal drop?

nu's drop from 1st to 8th must be OUT OF THIS WORLD.

As DF mentioned, this is a measure of who managed to not get no-offered over summer of 2009. NYC had the lowest no-offer rates for C/O 2009 (after very high rescinded offer rates for C/O 2008), with Chicago being substantially worse, and the south being absolutely terrible. So schools that placed mostly in NYC did the best (Cornell, Penn, etc). Chicago is an interesting data-point, b/c they do send a big chunk to Chicago, but their primary market is still NYC.

[FiveSermon]

As DF mentioned, this is a measure of who managed to not get no-offered over summer of 2009. NYC had the lowest no-offer rates for C/O 2009 (after very high rescinded offer rates for C/O 2008), with Chicago being substantially worse, and the south being absolutely terrible. So schools that placed mostly in NYC did the best (Cornell, Penn, etc). Chicago is an interesting data-point, b/c they do send a big chunk to Chicago, but their primary market is still NYC.

Uh hum...NYU!??

[rayiner]

So class of 2012 is mot likely to be like 2010? It's weird because the class of 2008-->2009 showed immense decline which seems to show that hiring was affected by the crash.

It's hard to tell. As thesealocust explained, it's really difficult to compare the data because it reflects the impact of ITE at very different stages of hiring. The burnt of ITE was between Fall 2008 and the end of 2009. During that period:

C/O 2008 had already started as first years. They got burnt by being laid off as first years.
C/O 2009 had gotten summer offers but not yet started. They got burnt by getting their full-time offers rescinded or having their start-dates deferred into 2010 and 2011.
C/O 2010 was going through OCI at the beginning of the crash. They got burnt by either not getting a summer-associate offer (if they didn't snag one before the market crash in the fall) or by being deferred or having their full-time offer rescinded after their summer in 2009.
C/O 2011 went through OCI near the bottom of the recession. They got burnt by not getting summer-associate offers at all because firms were hurting and already had a big backlog of associates from C/O 2009 and C/O 2010 who had gotten deferred.
C/O 2012 went through OCI as the economy was tentatively recovering. They got burnt because firms were unsure whether the inklings of recovery were real or not.

The thing is, different markets responded to each of these classes differently. Firms in New York laid off C/O 2008 and pulled offers and deferred people from C/O 2009. Firms in Chicago had fewer lay-offs in C/O 2008 but no-offered lots of C/O 2010 people. Firms in NYC hired decently from C/O 2011, but firms everywhere else did not. New York recovered strongly for C/O 2012, and Chicago and DC got a little better, but it seems the West coast was still weak.

[FiveSermon]

So class of 2012 is mot likely to be like 2010? It's weird because the class of 2008-->2009 showed immense decline which seems to show that hiring was affected by the crash.

It's hard to tell. As thesealocust explained, it's really difficult to compare the data because it reflects the impact of ITE at very different stages of hiring. The burnt of ITE was between Fall 2008 and the end of 2009. During that period:

C/O 2008 had already started as first years. They got burnt by being laid off as first years.
C/O 2009 had gotten summer offers but not yet started. They got burnt by getting their full-time offers rescinded or having their start-dates deferred into 2010 and 2011.
C/O 2010 was going through OCI at the beginning of the crash. They got burnt by either not getting a summer-associate offer (if they didn't snag one before the market crash in the fall) or by being deferred or having their full-time offer rescinded after their summer in 2009.
C/O 2011 went through OCI near the bottom of the recession. They got burnt by not getting summer-associate offers at all because firms were hurting and already had a big backlog of associates from C/O 2009 and C/O 2010 who had gotten deferred.
C/O 2012 went through OCI as the economy was tentatively recovering. They got burnt because firms were unsure whether the inklings of recovery were real or not.

The thing is, different markets responded to each of these classes differently. Firms in New York laid off C/O 2008 and pulled offers and deferred people from C/O 2009. Firms in Chicago had fewer lay-offs in C/O 2008 but no-offered lots of C/O 2010 people. Firms in NYC hired decently from C/O 2011, but firms everywhere else did not. New York recovered strongly for C/O 2012, and Chicago and DC got a little better, but it seems the West coast was still weak.

I don't get it. Every C/O listed there got burnt somehow. But from it I gather C/O 2011 is the absolute worst while C/O 2012 should reflect ITE and C/O 2010 is...?? Pre ITE? ITE? Middle road?

Also does this chart show deferrals? If someone was deferred from the previous year do they show up in this year's chart?

[rayiner]

I don't get it. Every C/O listed there got burnt somehow. But from it I gather C/O 2011 is the absolute worst while C/O 2012 should reflect ITE and C/O 2010 is...?? Pre ITE? ITE? Middle road?

Also does this chart show deferrals? If someone was deferred from the previous year do they show up in this year's chart?

The point is that every C/O got burnt in different ways in different markets so trying to project these patterns forward is probably not going to be useful. Generally speaking next year's data is likely to be the worst, but I don't think I'd hazard a guess at what the breakdown will be.

[glitched]

does anyone know where we can find this data for 2000-2007? thanks.

[KMaine]

You could get ahead on the Fed. Courts reading.
On a related note, I go to Cornell and will be working at a non-Valut 100, NLJ 250 next summer. However, I don't think it is because they think their firm is beneath higher ranked schools. There will be 4 times the number of Harvard students as Cornell students in my summer class.

Is this firm in NY? Boutique?

PM'd