Actually, a T3 school is not a dead end. Forum

[FiveSermon]

So, a T3 education is like taking out a $100,000 loan then going to a casino and putting it all on black.

This is probably true for most T1+T2 schools also.

[AreJay711]

These guys are students at a TTT:
--ImageRemoved--

3 4 of those people will probably be ok, one way or another.

[bjsesq]

The Army just released its list for the fall selection for JAG. Many of the selected members were from T3/T4 schools. Here are a few:

University of South Dakota

I have many friends who graduated from this law school, so I had to comment. As of right now, about 1/4 of last year's graduating class have yet to find gainful legal employment. At graduation, less than 1/2 had jobs. I mean, JAG is great, but throwing this school up on the JAG list as proof that T3's are not that bad is incredibly misleading.

[Barbie]

I'll chime in. The only T3 graduates I have experience with are from Stetson. For some time I worked for an NLJ250 in Tampa, who PREFERRED Stetson grads to UF, FSU, and anything out of state. They swore up and down that Stetson grads receieved an equal, if not better, quality of education. While Stetson at sticker is $$$, even at half scholarship I can see it well justified if one is fine staying in the Tampa and St. Petersburg area.

[mpj_3050]

4. I am not a dip shit who thinks a TTT can net a 80, 90, 100k salary. Given my opportunity costs I am okay with making a 40k in a small market.

Step back and evaluate your life if you think this. I dont know many people okay with studying 7 years for 40k.

You have a good point here, but for tons of people starting at 40k with lower debt isn't that bad (provided they land a job). And yes 7 years of school for 40k is not ideal but given the current state of this country I would love a job that pays 40k to start. If my final salary is what biglaw starts at I would be happy beyond belief because that is an enormous sum of money to me. I grew up poor and believe me my definition of success is being able to afford to get a car repaired on the spot, buy plenty of groceries, and if I have a kid be financially able to let them play sports, be in a band, etc. I would love to be able to say I went to Penn Law, Northwestern, etc. but that is not going to happen. I'm sure many people on here are going to have phenomenal careers out of these type of schools but simple fact is I can't get into a T14 or high end T1. I beat myself up over my LSAT score for the better part of 3 months because I averaged 169 and choked on game day twice and got 160's. I would give anything to go to an elite school but I just can't so I know I need to be realistic about things.

[vanwinkle]

The Army just released its list for the fall selection for JAG. Many of the selected members were from T3/T4 schools. Here are a few:

University of South Dakota

I have many friends who graduated from this law school, so I had to comment. As of right now, about 1/4 of last year's graduating class have yet to find gainful legal employment. At graduation, less than 1/2 had jobs. I mean, JAG is great, but throwing this school up on the JAG list as proof that T3's are not that bad is incredibly misleading.

Anecdotes like this are fascinating.

The thing is, people often respond to TLS with something like "TLS says you cannot find a job from a T3, here's a proof that someone did, therefore TLS is wrong". But that's not what people say at all. Yes, there are still people who find jobs from T3s. It's not a function of whether it's possible but whether it's likely. JAG does not hire nearly enough people every year to soak up all the people looking for jobs at T3s, so even showing that they hired someone from a T3 doesn't change the overall picture that much.

In short, most people understand it's not impossible to get a job from a T3, but "it's not impossible" is far from a safe bet at all.

[DoubleChecks]

i dont even think going to a T3 w/o doing proper research (personal goals, local market, scholarships offered, etc.) is like putting $100,000 on black...its more like putting $100,000 on double zero.

do some ppl win on double zero? yes, but most dont in one bet.

^just realized this is still analogy fail, because even if they win, they don't suddenly get 35-1 odds on the $100,000 haha.

[gov]

I'll chime in. The only T3 graduates I have experience with are from Stetson. For some time I worked for an NLJ250 in Tampa, who PREFERRED Stetson grads to UF, FSU, and anything out of state. They swore up and down that Stetson grads receieved an equal, if not better, quality of education. While Stetson at sticker is $$$, even at half scholarship I can see it well justified if one is fine staying in the Tampa and St. Petersburg area.

Barbie, did you work at Ruden McClosky?

( I only ask because I have been there before and was introduced to a few FSU grads... but judging from their site, they do have a lot of Stetson as well. As for So Fla. they hire from the T3/T4 schools a lot more than people would think)

[Barbie]

I'll chime in. The only T3 graduates I have experience with are from Stetson. For some time I worked for an NLJ250 in Tampa, who PREFERRED Stetson grads to UF, FSU, and anything out of state. They swore up and down that Stetson grads receieved an equal, if not better, quality of education. While Stetson at sticker is $$$, even at half scholarship I can see it well justified if one is fine staying in the Tampa and St. Petersburg area.

Barbie, did you work at Ruden McClosky?

( I only ask because I have been there before and was introduced to a few FSU grads... but judging from their site, they do have a lot of Stetson as well. As for So Fla. they hire from the T3/T4 schools a lot more than people would think)

No, but a lot of the established attorneys did come from there. They are new to Tampa (but have a St. Pete office also) I'm PMing you!

[AreJay711]

i dont even think going to a T3 w/o doing proper research (personal goals, local market, scholarships offered, etc.) is like putting $100,000 on black...its more like putting $100,000 on double zero.

do some ppl win on double zero? yes, but most dont in one bet.

^just realized this is still analogy fail, because even if they win, they don't suddenly get 35-1 odds on the $100,000 haha.

Yeah, at a T3 the payouts aren't that great in the medium term -- putting 100K on black might actually be a better investment from a purely financial perspective.

[rundoxierun]

I'll chime in. The only T3 graduates I have experience with are from Stetson. For some time I worked for an NLJ250 in Tampa, who PREFERRED Stetson grads to UF, FSU, and anything out of state. They swore up and down that Stetson grads receieved an equal, if not better, quality of education. While Stetson at sticker is $$$, even at half scholarship I can see it well justified if one is fine staying in the Tampa and St. Petersburg area.

Barbie, did you work at Ruden McClosky?

( I only ask because I have been there before and was introduced to a few FSU grads... but judging from their site, they do have a lot of Stetson as well. As for So Fla. they hire from the T3/T4 schools a lot more than people would think)

I wanna play the firm guessing game??

[ResolutePear]

4. I am not a dip shit who thinks a TTT can net a 80, 90, 100k salary. Given my opportunity costs I am okay with making a 40k in a small market.

Step back and evaluate your life if you think this. I dont know many people okay with studying 7 years for 40k.

You have a good point here, but for tons of people starting at 40k with lower debt isn't that bad (provided they land a job). And yes 7 years of school for 40k is not ideal but given the current state of this country I would love a job that pays 40k to start. If my final salary is what biglaw starts at I would be happy beyond belief because that is an enormous sum of money to me. I grew up poor and believe me my definition of success is being able to afford to get a car repaired on the spot, buy plenty of groceries, and if I have a kid be financially able to let them play sports, be in a band, etc. I would love to be able to say I went to Penn Law, Northwestern, etc. but that is not going to happen. I'm sure many people on here are going to have phenomenal careers out of these type of schools but simple fact is I can't get into a T14 or high end T1. I beat myself up over my LSAT score for the better part of 3 months because I averaged 169 and choked on game day twice and got 160's. I would give anything to go to an elite school but I just can't so I know I need to be realistic about things.

Just to put this out here: There always is an option of not going.

Hell, just the other day I had a friend pass his CCNA - a technical exam that's 90 minutes long and grants a certification that allows you to work on Cisco routers and networks. Took him 3 months to study and pass it. He's making ~40k for 40hrs/wk. He'll take the CCNP next year, and that'll up him quite a bit more - with almost no school debt incurred. He wanted to go to law school, but it just didn't make financial sense to him, even at a T1 state university - and he didn't care what he did in life.. as long as it made (financial) sense to him.

I know what you mean about thinking that 40k is pretty damn good for somebody who would otherwise be making a paltry salary - but with a huge loan hovering over your head, how far will that 40k go? Sure if you *LOVE* law, then definitely go for it - but if you're just looking for what makes financial sense: there are much, much easier and more enjoyable routes to take - again, if you don't like law.

[bjsesq]

The Army just released its list for the fall selection for JAG. Many of the selected members were from T3/T4 schools. Here are a few:

University of South Dakota

I have many friends who graduated from this law school, so I had to comment. As of right now, about 1/4 of last year's graduating class have yet to find gainful legal employment. At graduation, less than 1/2 had jobs. I mean, JAG is great, but throwing this school up on the JAG list as proof that T3's are not that bad is incredibly misleading.

Anecdotes like this are fascinating.

The thing is, people often respond to TLS with something like "TLS says you cannot find a job from a T3, here's a proof that someone did, therefore TLS is wrong". But that's not what people say at all. Yes, there are still people who find jobs from T3s. It's not a function of whether it's possible but whether it's likely. JAG does not hire nearly enough people every year to soak up all the people looking for jobs at T3s, so even showing that they hired someone from a T3 doesn't change the overall picture that much.

In short, most people understand it's not impossible to get a job from a T3, but "it's not impossible" is far from a safe bet at all.

Exactly. USD is the only law school in the state, but the market is just so over saturated that grads cannot find work. It is relatively inexpensive, so isn't as bad a decision as more expensive T3 and T4 schools, but people still need to exercise caution attending such schools. The school produces some fantastic lawyers, but none of that matters if they can't get a damn job.

[Barbie]

I think, generally, T3 isn't a bad idea if you can go for cheap (as in, cheaper than any T2/T1) otherwise it would make more sense to choose the T2/T1 for mostly job placement sake (school by school, could be more area domination, better alumni network, etc etc). There are also outside reasons to justify attending a T3, such a SO working nearby, or other family issues. Overall, I think there are a handful of T3 schools worth attending (Ole Miss, Stetson, etc) but I wouldn't pay 33+k a year to attend one if I had another option. If you don't have any other option-- do what you gotta do

[Fark-o-vision]

4. I am not a dip shit who thinks a TTT can net a 80, 90, 100k salary. Given my opportunity costs I am okay with making a 40k in a small market.

Step back and evaluate your life if you think this. I dont know many people okay with studying 7 years for 40k.

Be brighter than this. seven years for 40K in a profession that offers near limitless potential for growth? Better than the deal most people get offered in this life, bro. That isn't to say every graduate is going to make it, or get rich, but if you're motivated, not facing many better options, or think that you'd like to run your own life at some point, a t3 education for nearly free isn't a bad choice.

As a public school teacher my sister just paid off 36,000 in private debt (car, credit cards, school loans) in four years. thirty K in ten at forty a year is completely doable and, by then, you're probably getting into that 60-80K range. For someone who enjoys what they're doing, that isn't a bad deal.

I know there are a lot of qualifiers, but there always are. Kids who run their lives on cost benefit analysis (and without knowing how to do a good job of it) is why there is so much burn out at biglaw, and why biglaw exists at all.

[northwood]

What do you guys think about Michigan State? I've gotten into tier 1 schools and not sure I'd love practicing in Michigan but I have a full ride.

its too far from scranton pa, and i dont know if schrute farms needs a lawyer. They may need more of a psychologist for moes than a lawyer for dwight

[ResolutePear]

4. I am not a dip shit who thinks a TTT can net a 80, 90, 100k salary. Given my opportunity costs I am okay with making a 40k in a small market.

Step back and evaluate your life if you think this. I dont know many people okay with studying 7 years for 40k.

Be brighter than this. seven years for 40K in a profession that offers near limitless potential for growth? Better than the deal most people get offered in this life, bro. That isn't to say every graduate is going to make it, or get rich, but if you're motivated, not facing many better options, or think that you'd like to run your own life at some point, a t3 education for nearly free isn't a bad choice.

T3's are not in the business of offering free education. Thinking that is naive.

Sure, you have the ability to maintain a book of business - but at the end of the day.. you're in a T3 because you don't have a pedigree for a top school. Thinking that you'll be able to compete with people who plan to lateral from prestigious law firms into corporations, government positions, or other "posts" worth jack is also a shot in the dark from what I've heard.

It makes sense - who would I rather hire if I had a corporation: (1) Lawyer with 5-years of experience in securities and such while working in a very well regarded firm (hence, made contacts that will benefit the corp.) OR; (2) Lawyer with 5-years of experience in a small firm working with tickets, personal/small business bankruptcy, or other areas - since when you get out you'll be looking for *any* job.

I'm sorry - but thinking "everything will work out" is very irresponsible when talking about 6-figure debts.

[vanwinkle]

Just to put this out here: There always is an option of not going.

This is an important and often-overlooked point. There's a whole world of options out there, and the vast majority of people in this country manage to live their whole lives without going to law school or trying to become lawyers. Some of them make more money than most lawyers ever will; many of them find ways to at least make as much.

This is especially true for someone who already has a bachelor's degree. You have other options. They may not be great, and they may not be what you always dreamed of doing, but they might financially make sense for you and turn out to be good choices for you if you give them a chance.

I was doing a callback for a big firm in New York and got into a conversation with a partner about the hiring model and compensation. He said something like, People who do this to get rich are coming at it the wrong way. When you consider how many hours a week you have to put in to get it, that first-year salary doesn't seem so high anymore. You can get a higher hourly return and possibly make a lot more money going into business for yourself or doing other things than coming to work for a place like this. This is a profession, it's a career choice, and it takes a lot from you despite what it pays. If your motive for being here is the money you're not going to be happy and you're not going to last very long.

If you take the base $160K salary, that's $3,077 per week. Assuming a 70-hour work week, that's 40 hours straight time and 30 hours overtime (which in an overtime-eligible job would pay time and a half). That's a total of 85 pay-hours, and 3077/85 = $36.20/hr. And many firms provide health insurance, but don't do any kind of 401K matching or give other retirement benefits (they usually have 401K plans but you have to put all the money in yourself).

I worked blue-collar before I came to law school. Having a bachelor's degree allowed me to move up quickly to a supervisor-level position, where I was making over $25/hr plus overtime eligibility when I left. On top of insurance benefits, I got significant retirement-account contributions that I quickly vested in and got to take with me when I left. I was willing to work hard, and they were willing to compensate me for it.

No, I wasn't making as much as I could make at a law firm, but I was also working far fewer hours (and since they paid overtime, my pay went up the more I worked). If I were working as many hours as people at a law firm do I would've been making six figures a year, though, and I was really glad that I wasn't. People get sucked into that $160K allure but they don't really process what it means or how hard it is to maintain. This is a big reason why attrition at law firms is so high; even if that sounds like a lot of money going in, it's very easy to start thinking of it as not worth what you're giving once you're there.

There are always other options. No, you won't be rich doing most of them, but most people won't be rich being lawyers either. You can, however, be compensated well enough to live comfortably and enjoy the free time you will have even without a law degree. There is no "must either go to T14 or go to T2 or go to T3" paradigm, nobody's making you go to law school or try to enter the legal employment rat race.

The truth is most people want to do law because it's very intellectual work and carries a lot of prestige with it. Lawyers are famous for being thinkers and debaters and leaders of society. But if your real goal in life is to make a living wage and be happy doing it, there are many, many other things you could do that don't require going deep into debt and taking three extra years of study and rolling the dice on such long odds. Given how unlikely it is to find employment success from a T3, "not going at all and finding another way to make a living" is definitely a worthwhile option to consider.

[romothesavior]

Any argument based on blatantly false employment statistics is a horrible, horrible argument.

I posted this in another thread, but it bears repeating here:

I actually do think going to T3 schools can be a good decision when:

1) It is free or really cheap
2) It is in a market you want to practice in
3) The market is not horribly oversaturated or dominated by T1 schools

or, if you have a guaranteed job lined up and can go for cheap.

I know everyone thinks I'm some sort of elitist or something, but that is nowhere near the truth. Going to a lower ranked school isn't always disasterous. But way too many students make the absolutely ridiculous decision to pay six figures to attend private law schools in dry or uber-competitive markets like Florida, DC, New York, California etc. when they are from halfway across the country.

Y'all just better recognize that the majority of T3 (and especially T4) grads will not work in a job that requires a JD. Using these bogus stats to justify your decision is outrageously stupid.

[romothesavior]

I'm sorry - but thinking "everything will work out" is very irresponsible when talking about 6-figure debts.

Absolutely this. 0Ls continue to dive headfirst into 6-figure debt with no concept of how bad things are, and they convince themselves it will be okay. Then when some current student, recent graduate, or even the New York Times or ABA comes along and says, "You're about to make a massive mistake," they write it off as elitism and reassure themselves they can finish in the top 10% and just work really hard to get a job.

[Grizz]

I know this is going to draw a bunch of controversy; however, I think too many people are getting the wrong idea about T3 (and sometimes T4) schools. From what I can see, the general consensus about T3 schools is that its almost always a terrible option and not worth the money. I honestly think that is not the best advice. Sure, if somebody has the opportunity to retake the LSAT - go for it, it's probably for the better. But for those who end up looking at acceptance only from T3 schools, that's OK! (if you really want to be a lawyer). Here are some numbers I found:


Mercer - 64.1% employed in law firms

Marquette - 57.9% employed in law firms

Drake - 52.4% employed in law firms


Now these jobs most likely don't draw the $100k+ salaries that T3 naysayers crave; however, its fair to say that lawyers in these jobs could certainly pay off their debt in a reasonable amount of time. Looking at those numbers, its completely reasonable to say that if you work hard enough to be in the top 50% (assuming those numbers roughly correspond with class ranking), there are jobs for you.

And for those who say that there's not a job out there for even a T14 graduate, here's something I'm familiar with: JAG. The Army just released its list for the fall selection for JAG. Many of the selected members were from T3/T4 schools. Here are a few:

Univeristy of Baltimore
Florida International University
University of South Dakota
University of Akron
University of Toledo
Faulkner University
North Carolina Central University

Also, they will pay $60,000 for your student loans.


This is just my opinion, so take how you want, but I just felt like a different perspective was needed for those seriously considering a T3 school.

[mpj_3050]

Vanwinkle and Resolute Pear: your advice of forgoing law schools is something that I think about everyday. Sometimes TLS seems a bit elitist but there is truth to what people say - the market for lawyers ain't exactly good. I know people get into trouble when they dive into 6 figure debt without researching prospects.

I am actually looking to get some advice on my options so here it goes:

T2 Case Western w/probably 10k a year, massively expensive so they are out of it.

Arkansas-Little Rock: guaranteed residency from day one (said if I get turned down for residency the scholarship continues, no stipulations) and scholarship making tuition 3k per year with top 60% stipulation. If I drop below top 60% I would drop out anyway. With money saved up I could get out with probably 30k in debt, is this really that horrible of an option? It is not like I would pay sticker at NYLS, JMLS, or something along those lines. Plus, this is Arkansas we are talking about and while there are far fewer jobs than California, NY, etc., at least I would not compete against people who went to vastly superior schools.

Believe me, I am by no means one of those "everything will work out" in the end kind of people, I just am torn about taking a gamble. Any opinions are greatly appreciated.

[vanwinkle]

Plus, this is Arkansas we are talking about and while there are far fewer jobs than California, NY, etc., at least I would not compete against people who went to vastly superior schools.

I know someone at HYS who came from Arkansas. He struck out at OCI and ended up getting a job at a law firm in Little Rock.

Don't assume you won't be competing at all with people at top schools. You may be competing with a lot fewer, but they're still there, and still trying to grab what jobs are available. Arkansas is just like any other state in the country; it produces people who go to top schools, and then use those home connections as a fallback when they can't find work in the primary markets. The question isn't whether you have competition there, because you do; the question is how big it is and whether there are still worthwhile jobs left after they've grabbed what they can.

[rundoxierun]

Vanwinkle and Resolute Pear: your advice of forgoing law schools is something that I think about everyday. Sometimes TLS seems a bit elitist but there is truth to what people say - the market for lawyers ain't exactly good. I know people get into trouble when they dive into 6 figure debt without researching prospects.

I am actually looking to get some advice on my options so here it goes:

T2 Case Western w/probably 10k a year, massively expensive so they are out of it.

Arkansas-Little Rock: guaranteed residency from day one (said if I get turned down for residency the scholarship continues, no stipulations) and scholarship making tuition 3k per year with top 60% stipulation. If I drop below top 60% I would drop out anyway. With money saved up I could get out with probably 30k in debt, is this really that horrible of an option? It is not like I would pay sticker at NYLS, JMLS, or something along those lines. Plus, this is Arkansas we are talking about and while there are far fewer jobs than California, NY, etc., at least I would not compete against people who went to vastly superior schools.

Believe me, I am by no means one of those "everything will work out" in the end kind of people, I just am torn about taking a gamble. Any opinions are greatly appreciated.

Im actually very familiar with this particular school and market. As Im sure you know, Arkansas has only two schools: UALR and UA. UA pretty much dominates Northwest Arkansas(really nice area w/ Fayetteville, Springdale, etc.) which has some sizable companies and is an area of growth but it competes in Little Rock with UALR. UALR is, of course, pretty influential in Little Rock and places a lot of lawyers at the firms of size/repute in the city(Friday and the Rose firm are examples). UA likely has a bit of an advantage since UALR is a relatively young school but not a huge one near little rock. UALR would be one of the T4 schools that I would say is probably not a bad deal at 30-50k debt. If you happen to fluent in Spanish you could potentially buy yourself some leeway to do well. There is a need for spanish speaking lawyers in Arkansas.

Like vanwinkle said, however, there are more than a few t-14 guys that come back to the area. Two of the more successful people I know went to Vanderbilt and Columbia. At the same time, however, they are pretty generous with the residency scholarships so they have a lot of students who come from other states and move back home.

ETA: PM me if you want details about the school or Arkansas in general.

[Zarathustraspoke]

So, a T3 education is like taking out a $100,000 loan then going to a casino and putting it all on black.

This is probably true for most T1+T2 schools also.

No I respectfully disagree. Many posters on this site aren't given justice to many schools that are not in the t20 range that still have a very solid number of students working at law firms.