Berkeley's Fall 2010 Medians Drop Forum

[Deuce]

This dip actually put my LSAT above median and GPA above the 75th. Wasn't going to apply before, but looks like I'll take a shot now.

[thechee]

Compare the number of people receiving money at UCB versus MVP on LSN:

http://berkeley.lawschoolnumbers.com/applicants/0910

http://michigan.lawschoolnumbers.com/applicants/0910
http://penn.lawschoolnumbers.com/applicants/0910
http://uva.lawschoolnumbers.com/applicants/0910

Lots of money going around at M and P. Not as large a proportion at UVA, but that's probably due to the high number of ED admits. Also, those at UVA who are getting money are getting pretty solid scholarships.

That's why Berkeley's medians are declining.

[drdolittle]

The differences are not necessarily statistically significant.

Statistical significance is a measure used to determine whether or not an observed measurement based on a sample is likely to be representative of the group. Berkeley released its median data in 2009, and it did so in 2010. The figures are not based on a random sample, but rather the entire population of enrolled Boalt students. Thus the term 'statistical significance' has no application to this situation.

Random & dependent sampling is not necessary to determine statistical significance. More sophisticated statistical analyses like one-way ANOVA (vs. a simple Student's t-test, for ex.) would do the job of comparing different and independent samples perfectly well, given the full data set. Yearly GPAs and LSATs have means and distributions, and it would be straightforward to determine whether those means are statistically different year to year. Also, just looking at the numbers released, a problem is that we don't have the exact values down to the decimal fraction, especially for the LSAT, nor do we know the yearly distributions. For example, if the 2009 low LSAT average was 164.5, rounded up to 165, and the 2010 low LSAT were 163.4, rounded down to 163, then the year to year differences would be accentuated by rounding, i.e. from actually being only 1.1 apart to apparently being 2 apart. And not knowing the full distributions of scores each year makes such comparisons impossible to really interpret anyway.

[5ky]

Damn, Michigan gives out money to a TON of people, I had no idea it was that extensive.

[rundoxierun]

Damn, Michigan gives out money to a TON of people, I had no idea it was that extensive.

Yea UMich has bank and a killer alumni base. IIRC, Michigan was for a long time considered a top 3 law school.

[5ky]

Damn, Michigan gives out money to a TON of people, I had no idea it was that extensive.

Yea UMich has bank and a killer alumni base. IIRC, Michigan was for a long time considered a top 3 law school.

Yeah, that is true. TBH, I'm surprised Berkeley has been able to historically attract comparable classes to MVP, if the above links are indicative of past years as well. There's just a massive difference.

[rundoxierun]

Damn, Michigan gives out money to a TON of people, I had no idea it was that extensive.

Yea UMich has bank and a killer alumni base. IIRC, Michigan was for a long time considered a top 3 law school.

Yeah, that is true. TBH, I'm surprised Berkeley has been able to historically attract comparable classes to MVP, if the above links are indicative of past years as well. There's just a massive difference.

Berkeley has a very unique "brand" among elite law schools. That combined with the prospect of living in the bay area allows it to compete well for a certain segment of law school applicants.

[BenJ]

Damn, Michigan gives out money to a TON of people, I had no idea it was that extensive.

Yea UMich has bank and a killer alumni base. IIRC, Michigan was for a long time considered a top 3 law school.

Yeah, that is true. TBH, I'm surprised Berkeley has been able to historically attract comparable classes to MVP, if the above links are indicative of past years as well. There's just a massive difference.

They used to be much cheaper, even for out-of-staters, so they didn't need scholarships. Not any more, though, and tuition continues to rise. It will probably reach 55k within a few years, and it will have higher costs for in-state than Stanford. The problem is that the Regents rely on the grad programs to subsidize the undergrad even more than elsewhere; undergrad in-state at Berkeley is still only around $15k, IIRC. That needs to change if they don't want the law school to have a precipitous fall.

Also, being the only West Coast T14 save tiny Stanford helps.

[thechee]

At the Berkeley ASW I met a bunch of folks who were turning down CCN for B because they were dead set on working in CA. If CA is your ultimate goal, it's a great place to go. If not, it's a pretty raw deal, especially if you aren't a CA resident to start out (granted, most people get resident tuition for 2L & 3L.

Also, the cost of Stanford relative to Berkeley is pretty irrelevant. Who would actually choose Berkeley over Stanford because it was cheaper at sticker?

[5ky]

Yeah, you above are all right, of course. It used to be much, much cheaper in the past, it (and Stanford) dominates the California market, which used to be much stronger before CA imploded upon itself. And it's got that slightly different feel that helps attract a certain kind of student.

That being said, the CA economy and these rising tuition costs can't help things very much for them.

[Shaggier1]

Berkeley = TTT in decline. Sorry about YTP lack of government funding bros.

Berkeley has just completed a 40% faculty expansion (at a time when other schools are not hiring, meaning they are poaching prized faculty) and they are sticking a brand new building on the law school campus as we speak.

Sure they lost a ton of State funding, but Chris Edley is a fundraising machine, and has Berkeley growing in a way that other schools could not dream of in a financial crisis.

Bottom line: Berkeley Law is doing just fine (regardless of the almost negligible changes in their medians).

[MollyAlisa]

"From the Art World: Aspiring thespians, artists, photographers, dancers, vocalists, and musicians, including an opera singer, a member of a gamelan orchestra, 3 professional ballet dancers (one a principal with the San Francisco Ballet), members of at least 3 different touring and recorded bands, 3 professional actors, a radio commercial voice-over performer, a lead performer from the Broadway production of “Stomp”, a concert pianist, a fire performance artist, and a member of the LA Lakers dance team."

Sorry, I know it's a little off-topic now, but that's me! A little silly I guess but still cool to me...

[jay115]

Well, Seattle and LA are pretty damn far apart. I live in Santa Cruz, and the weather here is pretty foggy. SF is foggy. The idea that Palo Alto isn't foggy in the middle of the two is pretty strange.

Visit Palo Alto sometime. When you actually visit the Bay Area, you'll encounter the fog bank - which keeps SF (and close surrounding areas, including Berk) foggy. The fog bank emanates from the SF bay - but ends somewhere in Daly City (about 10 minutes south of SF). Palo Alto is about 30 minutes south of San Francisco. I don't know what what causes Santa Cruz to be foggy (I've never been), but I assume it's not the SF bay because of the SF fog bank limits. Thus, if the fogginess of both areas emanate from different sources, then no, it wouldn't be strange for areas in between to not be foggy.

Reexamine your logic. A parallel argument is that Seattle is rainy, and Portland, Maine is rainy - therefore, all cities in between Seattle and Portland must be rainy.

Haha, wow. I guess your "I don't want to bicker" thing was a reflection of you holding back your desire? Look back what I said first: it was a question. Must have struck a nerve. Sorry for thinking something about Palo Alto.

And don't be ridiculous, you know the difference between SF and Santa Cruz and that extreme.

Apologies - I didn't think my response sounded snarky, but apparently it rubbed the wrong way.

[bilbobaggins]

"From the Art World: Aspiring thespians, artists, photographers, dancers, vocalists, and musicians, including an opera singer, a member of a gamelan orchestra, 3 professional ballet dancers (one a principal with the San Francisco Ballet), members of at least 3 different touring and recorded bands, 3 professional actors, a radio commercial voice-over performer, a lead performer from the Broadway production of “Stomp”, a concert pianist, a fire performance artist, and a member of the LA Lakers dance team."

Sorry, I know it's a little off-topic now, but that's me! A little silly I guess but still cool to me...

Rad!

[Knock]

"From the Art World: Aspiring thespians, artists, photographers, dancers, vocalists, and musicians, including an opera singer, a member of a gamelan orchestra, 3 professional ballet dancers (one a principal with the San Francisco Ballet), members of at least 3 different touring and recorded bands, 3 professional actors, a radio commercial voice-over performer, a lead performer from the Broadway production of “Stomp”, a concert pianist, a fire performance artist, and a member of the LA Lakers dance team."

Sorry, I know it's a little off-topic now, but that's me! A little silly I guess but still cool to me...

That's cool and congratulations! Enjoy Berkeley

[emilybeth]

Berkeley = TTT in decline. Sorry about YTP lack of government funding bros.

Berkeley has just completed a 40% faculty expansion (at a time when other schools are not hiring, meaning they are poaching prized faculty) and they are sticking a brand new building on the law school campus as we speak.

Sure they lost a ton of State funding, but Chris Edley is a fundraising machine, and has Berkeley growing in a way that other schools could not dream of in a financial crisis.

Bottom line: Berkeley Law is doing just fine (regardless of the almost negligible changes in their medians).

Plus-fucking-one to this.

[Knock]

Berkeley = TTT in decline. Sorry about YTP lack of government funding bros.

Berkeley has just completed a 40% faculty expansion (at a time when other schools are not hiring, meaning they are poaching prized faculty) and they are sticking a brand new building on the law school campus as we speak.

Sure they lost a ton of State funding, but Chris Edley is a fundraising machine, and has Berkeley growing in a way that other schools could not dream of in a financial crisis.

Bottom line: Berkeley Law is doing just fine (regardless of the almost negligible changes in their medians).

Plus-fucking-one to this.

Yeah, that's sweet! I wasn't a huge fan of Boalt Hall, from an aesthetic standpoint, when I visited. Haas, however, blew me away! I felt like I was in an aspen ski resort or something. Anyone got any pictures of what the new law building will look like? when is it expected to be completed? and in what location?

[legends159]

ITT: A bunch of kids who got rejected or will get rejected from Berkeley attempt to gloat about something few people beyond the 0L life stage give a shit about.

True story. Berkeley is a great institution with an amazing law school but a crappy football team

[NayBoer]

I live in Marin and I like the fog. Compared to SF and south Marin, Oakland and Berkeley are sweltering deserts.

Also, East Bay is TTT.

[Veyron]

Berkeley = TTT in decline. Sorry about YTP lack of government funding bros.

Berkeley has just completed a 40% faculty expansion (at a time when other schools are not hiring, meaning they are poaching prized faculty) and they are sticking a brand new building on the law school campus as we speak.

Sure they lost a ton of State funding, but Chris Edley is a fundraising machine, and has Berkeley growing in a way that other schools could not dream of in a financial crisis.

Bottom line: Berkeley Law is doing just fine (regardless of the almost negligible changes in their medians).

My only response is... 30% placement thru OCI, 50K + tuition per year. Nothing else is needed.

[im_blue]

Berkeley = TTT in decline. Sorry about YTP lack of government funding bros.

Berkeley has just completed a 40% faculty expansion (at a time when other schools are not hiring, meaning they are poaching prized faculty) and they are sticking a brand new building on the law school campus as we speak.

Sure they lost a ton of State funding, but Chris Edley is a fundraising machine, and has Berkeley growing in a way that other schools could not dream of in a financial crisis.

Bottom line: Berkeley Law is doing just fine (regardless of the almost negligible changes in their medians).

My only response is... 30% placement thru OCI, 50K + tuition per year. Nothing else is needed.

TITCR. New faculty and buildings are irrelevant compared to $220k debt and a 1/3 chance at biglaw.

[IzziesGal]

Compare the number of people receiving money at UCB versus MVP on LSN:

http://berkeley.lawschoolnumbers.com/applicants/0910

http://michigan.lawschoolnumbers.com/applicants/0910
http://penn.lawschoolnumbers.com/applicants/0910
http://uva.lawschoolnumbers.com/applicants/0910

Lots of money going around at M and P. Not as large a proportion at UVA, but that's probably due to the high number of ED admits. Also, those at UVA who are getting money are getting pretty solid scholarships.

That's why Berkeley's medians are declining.

This is only merit based aid. Berkeley probably gives the most in the form of need based aid. That doesn't get reported on lawschoolnumbers b/c no one knows if they're being considered for a grant or even received a grant until their financial aid packages are complete around admitted students day.

[IzziesGal]

Berkeley = TTT in decline. Sorry about YTP lack of government funding bros.

Berkeley has just completed a 40% faculty expansion (at a time when other schools are not hiring, meaning they are poaching prized faculty) and they are sticking a brand new building on the law school campus as we speak.

Sure they lost a ton of State funding, but Chris Edley is a fundraising machine, and has Berkeley growing in a way that other schools could not dream of in a financial crisis.

Bottom line: Berkeley Law is doing just fine (regardless of the almost negligible changes in their medians).

My only response is... 30% placement thru OCI, 50K + tuition per year. Nothing else is needed.

TITCR. New faculty and buildings are irrelevant compared to $220k debt and a 1/3 chance at biglaw.

This is so irritating. 30% through OCIP probably has something to do with lots of Berkeley kids self-selecting out of firm work and choosing non-profits and gov't instead. It *is* Berkeley. And OCIP isn't the only way to get a job. Mailings to target regions actually work. You can be proactive and start setting up stuff on your own before OCIP even begins.

[im_blue]

TITCR. New faculty and buildings are irrelevant compared to $220k debt and a 1/3 chance at biglaw.

This is so irritating. 30% through OCIP probably has something to do with lots of Berkeley kids self-selecting out of firm work and choosing non-profits and gov't instead. It *is* Berkeley.

Not significantly more compared to MVP.
Berkeley: 72% firms, 10% PI, 9% clerkship, 5% gov't
Michigan: 75% firms, 20% PI, 3% judicial
Virginia: 77% firms, 13% clerkship, 7% PI
Penn: 74% firms, 15% clerkship, 3% PI, 2% gov't

And OCIP isn't the only way to get a job. Mailings to target regions actually work. You can be proactive and start setting up stuff on your own before OCIP even begins.

This is true of any school, yet MVP placed close to 50% of their class through OCI.

[rundoxierun]

And OCIP isn't the only way to get a job. Mailings to target regions actually work. You can be proactive and start setting up stuff on your own before OCIP even begins.

This is true of any school, yet MVP placed close to 50% of their class through OCI.

A) Idk about biglaw(as in big firms) but if you think less than 50% of the UCB class will be making 125k+ next year then you really need to step away from the stats have a visit with reality. B) That 30% number isnt even official.