older student (60+)/ GPA /personal statement /references Forum

[20160810]

As evidence I'll site my grandma, who has a mustache nicer than mine, stays up until 5am in the morning watching game shows and black and white television, and sometimes poops herself. Ready for law school? Maybe not.

Dear obnoxious asswipe,

I banned you for life. Enjoy the rest of the internet.

Hugs and kisses,
SBL

[Holly Golightly]

As evidence I'll site my grandma, who has a mustache nicer than mine, stays up until 5am in the morning watching game shows and black and white television, and sometimes poops herself. Ready for law school? Maybe not.

Dear obnoxious asswipe,

I banned you.

Hugs and kisses,
SBL

Yessssss!

[kasparov]

you wouldn't mind sharing what your undergraduate GPA is would you? I don't mean this as in insult or as ageist at all. I'm curious to see it because of grade inflation. A decent UGPA from the 60's might be a weeee different than what one would consider decent today.

That said, your academic aptitude has clearly been demonstrated a few times over. Enjoy your time in Berkeley

[jayn3]

As evidence I'll site my grandma, who has a mustache nicer than mine, stays up until 5am in the morning watching game shows and black and white television, and sometimes poops herself. Ready for law school? Maybe not.

Dear obnoxious asswipe,

I banned you for life. Enjoy the rest of the internet.

Hugs and kisses,
SBL

<3

[atlantalaw]

i can't really speak on how an adcomm will view your age. it would probably depend on the individual. in terms of actually doing well in law school though, i was just remembering how a 45 year old mom (had kids late) did swimmingly in law school. she was my neighbor. not saying it was easy for her, but i don't think law school is easy for anyone. the older law students i know now are all doing well too. if i were an adcomm, i wouldn't hesitate to accept someone just because of the applicant's age. i think the older applicants add a point of view that is very much appreciated since they have had more opportunities to live life.

[SaintClarence27]

While I am usually opposed to having my ban overturned by another MOD, in this case I fully support.

+1

[20160810]

While I am usually opposed to having my ban overturned by another MOD, in this case I fully support.

It wasn't so much overturned as extended. I liked your idea, and decided to renew it endlessly.

[kalvano]

As evidence I'll site my grandma, who has a mustache nicer than mine, stays up until 5am in the morning watching game shows and black and white television, and sometimes poops herself. Ready for law school? Maybe not.

Dear obnoxious asswipe,

I banned you for life. Enjoy the rest of the internet.

Hugs and kisses,
SBL

**giggle**

[retiree]

you wouldn't mind sharing what your undergraduate GPA is would you? I don't mean this as in insult or as ageist at all. I'm curious to see it because of grade inflation. A decent UGPA from the 60's might be a weeee different than what one would consider decent today.

That said, your academic aptitude has clearly been demonstrated a few times over. Enjoy your time in Berkeley

====================
Not sure how you define the "different" part in your sentence (A decent UGPA from the 60's might be a weeee different than what one would consider decent today).

I have to find my transcript from undergrad (back in the 60s)--as I vaguely recall, it was a low 3 (B), 3.1 I think (on a 4.0 system). Nothing that stands out that I can recall. What does stand out in my memory is that I had applied to the Institute of Technology, and been accepted there (it is part of the University of Minnesota, Minneapolis), planning to major in math (a favorite subject). There were only 2 women, myself being one of them, who got accepted to IT as freshmen. We were brought it to the dean's office and "highly advised" that choosing a degree in Education or some liberal arts program would probably suit us better, since we were competing against nearly 9000 men who really needed those better paying jobs and besides, the city needed school teachers, too. I have occasionally wondered what path my life would have taken had I graduated with a B.S. in math. My nephew (age 32) got his B.S. in math and teaches high school math and coaches basketball. For an athlete who was on a sports scholarship, he actually was on the Dean's List, but he was smart (for a jock).

Women today don't know what they have when it comes to not having to jump through hoops to prove yourself, or having to force doors open that were closed to women just because they were women. I ended up with my first degree, a B.S. in Education/Music (Univ of Minnesota). Back then, if you majored in education, you weren't put into a classroom (student teacher) until your last 2 quarters (you had to teach 2 grades). Now they put you into a classroom in your freshman year, so if you don't like it, you can switch majors. Well, I didn't like it, but by the time I finished that last quarter, I had already signed a teaching contract. I had to get a judge to sign a court order to allow me to get out of the contract--I told the judge, it was either 30 justifiable homocides, or let me out of the contract to join the military. He wisely chose the latter.

The U of Minnesota was on the quarter system (not semesters) and I worked my you-know-what off in classes, while also working 37 hours a week (a part-time job) to pay for school. Some classes were large (2500 students in Psych 101, 1500 in Econ, etc.). In grad school (which came 8 years later, and with smaller classes, I realized I couldn't get away with skipping classes). In grad school I ended up taking 20 hours of accounting courses and had mostly A's (which I think came from the fact I was working in the business world and actually doing that kind of work). My GPA in grad school was just under 4.0 (3.8 or 3.9 I think), with many hard courses. An "A" back then meant you earned it and you had to nearly sell your soul to get it. Same with undergrad at the U of M.

Does anyone know WHY law schools don't factor in your grad school GPA? I mean - people do really stupid things when they are in college, we all do/did. Sometimes I think that age 18 is too young to start college, and people should wait a year or two to at least partially grow up. It would appear that if one is looking for positive intellectual growth, that your grades in grad school would be a better indicator. While my 4 years of undergrad were hard classes, it was work that was almost a bigger priority, with studying (when I did it) on the back burner, even with a full load of classes. No work, no pay for school. (My parents could not afford it. I paid for school by babysitting, too.) I was on scholarship and the G.I. bill for grad school.) I spent a lot of time commuting on the bus to and from school and home, where I got a lot of studying done. I didn't have a car until I could afford to buy one and pay for insurance. (My first car was a Dodge Dart, with a slant 6 engine--love that little thing--it was cheap!)

I am appalled at what undergrad schools are turning out in the way of allegedly educated students today. And the problem starts in elementary, and goes right into middle (we called it junior) and high school. Teachers pass students in the lower grades who should not be passed to the next grade. But today, it is such a threatening environment for teachers, they fear they will be sued if that don't pass the delta sierra kid (I use the Falcon code a lot, so hope you can understand what I am saying), or even beaten up, and the school system won't back up the teacher. I had knives pulled on me when I taught in the Inner City in Mpls, and that was in elementary school! Silly students--no one told them to never mess with someone who can flip you on your back in a second! That action of passing students who haven't earned it continues into high school, and then you have the same delta sierras in college. They can't even speak a correct and complete sentence, much less write, and they haven't a clue as to what critical thinking is because no one is teaching it. The courses are not challenging enough, and the teacher nowadays aren't much smarter than their students (watch Jay Leno with the Jay Walking and when he interviews teachers--bad, really bad)

I recall what a CEO once told me. He said, "Knowledge of the company is not #1 on our list of knowledge or skills that we want our young managers to have when we hire them--we can teach you all that. You better have good writing skills when you walk in the door and the ability to speak in front of people." Back in my working days, I also had to review resumes from people. Pathetic. And the interviews were even worse! One thing I always did was to get a writing sample from an applicant to see if what was in the cover letter and resume matched the sample. Naughty, naughty people, some of them. Frankly, I think grade inflation is alive and well, but it didn't start in the 1960s. It makes interviewing and hiring a lot harder, because you don't know how much truth is in the application.

Remembering my own college days, when I began teaching college courses, I started out with the following: "Welcome to ABC. I am XYZ, your instructor for the next 10 weeks. I can't make you come to class. I can't make you study. I can't make you buy the books. I can't make you do the homework. But I can sure as hell make you regret you didn't do any of those things, and refrain from telling me who your daddy is." So even instructors learn from their undergrad days.

I would never go to school in California--I am afraid of earthquakes. Won't go to school in Oklahoma either--I have been in a tornado and don't need to go through that life-altering experience ever again. Also been through a couple of hurricanes. As for snowstorms, well, been in too many of them to count. But I will take a snowstorm any day over the others. I love to shovel. Great exercise! When you finish you get to go inside, make some hot chocolate, and pour in a little brandy. Yup, let it snow, let it snow, let it snow!

Bonne nuit.

[20160810]

Graduate school GPAs are not factored in in all probability because the USNews rankings do not account for them in their matrix. Thus it would hurt a school's ranking to treat your graduate 3.5 as controlling when USNews would see your undergrad 3.0 (for instance). It's a bummer, but it's the way it goes. Fortunately, your application is so unique that they're VERY unlikely to focus on anything but your LSAT score.

And for the record, we don't get earthquakes in inland California, so feel free to join us here at UC Davis.

[SaintClarence27]

I ended up with my first degree, a B.S. in Education/Music (Univ of Minnesota). Back then, if you majored in education, you weren't put into a classroom (student teacher) until your last 2 quarters (you had to teach 2 grades). Now they put you into a classroom in your freshman year, so if you don't like it, you can switch majors.

I wish that were ACTUALLY the case. Unfortunately, at least at my undergrad, it wasn't.

[shepdawg]

Seems like the opportunities you would gain would not be worth the cost. That is, unless you are already very wealthy and have enough saved to retire in the Keys now.

[manbearwig]

Seems like the opportunities you would gain would not be worth the cost. That is, unless you are already very wealthy and have enough saved to retire in the Keys now.

I'm pretty sure the OP doesn't care about law school being "worth the cost." I doubt she expects to land a 6 figure biglaw job. At where she is in life, I say she's earned the right to do what she wants. I'm sure she has enough life experience now to do her own cost vs. experience analysis.

[GermX]

The fact I have never smoked (not even tried it) in my life has me (odds are) living longer than someone who has.

Ya know, the oldest lady that ever lived used to smoke two packs a day every day till she was 113.

[kalvano]

I don't speed either. For every 5 miles over the speed limit, you are risking an early death by 5-6 years

If that were true, I'd have been dead 20 years ago.

[Holly Golightly]

SBL, can GermX be the next to go?

[Holly Golightly]

Also, OP, I genuinely wish you luck. Your story is very cool, and I think it's awesome that you're going to go to law school.

[SaintClarence27]

SBL, can GermX be the next to go?

+1

[jayn3]

Fortunately, your application is so unique that they're VERY unlikely to focus on anything but your LSAT score.

this, and definitely your personal statement

also, i can't see how it would hurt to visit the schools before applying and build a connection with the admissions offices. i doubt they see many applicants like you, and i'm guessing they'll appreciate having a face to connect with your application.

[MusicNutMeggie]

OP- You asked why LSAC doesn't count your grad school GPA, and I don't think anyone answered you. It's because grad school GPAs are typically very inflated; it's rare for someone NOT to make the dean's list.

[retiree]

Seems like the opportunities you would gain would not be worth the cost. That is, unless you are already very wealthy and have enough saved to retire in the Keys now.

Paying tuition is not an issue. I started saving money when I was 10 years old (you'd be surprised at the little jobs a kid can do, and the money you can make when shoveling snow is practically a year-round job!). I frequently had more than 1 job at a time (mostly teaching jobs, even when I was still in the military) except when I was serving in Southeast Asia. (Oops, I forgot about the pool playing, where I earned money betting that I would win. So, does that count as an extra job?)

I learned to "pay" myself first. And 2/3 into my working years, I began saving 1/3 of my paycheck. At that point, I had everything I needed. I am the only person I know, other than my sister, who hates to shop. I can count on one hand the number of times I have been in a mall in the past 15 years. I don't need 300 CDs, Blue-Ray, a phone that does everything except cook, or $150 sneakers. (I do like a nice bottle of French wine, however.) BTW, did you know that the fasting growing segment of Internet users is senior women? They are online shopping! The key here is "need." No, I didn't deprive myself. One of the other things you learn as you grow older is that you need less and less to be happier and satisfied.

I know I must sound like a parent giving advice to children--I am good at that. My parents taught us at a very young age the value of saving and investing for the future. When you identify your goals, then what you have to do to achieve them becomes blatantly obvious. You can live well in retirement, or you can buy a latte every day. But the consequence of that indulgence means you will be working a whole lot longer before you finally walk out the door for the last time. I knew exactly the date I would be retiring, and worked backward from there on how much of a nest egg I would need on the day I retired, to live on in retirement. (There are lots of online calculators out there that can help you crunch the numbers.)

I have no desire and no ego problems that I have to attend some big-name law school or one where the tuition is more than a down payment on a house. Frankly, I am not concerned about the various tiers for law schools--designations established for whatever reasons. There are perfectly good schools out there where you can get a law degree. I used to tell the students in my classes that, unless you were the best engineer this side of the Mississippi, there is no need to go to MIT. Or, unless you were the best financial whiz in the whole world, there is no need to go to Wharton. And I don't need to be Sandra Day O'Connor. Besides, in 5 years (sometimes sooner), it won't matter. People just don't go around asking you where you got your degree after you have been in the work world a number of years. They don't care. All they care is that you can do the job and get along with your coworkers and keep your powder dry. And most would prefer not to know that you went to some fancy school, because they will most likely stereotype you before you have a chance to prove yourself (and sometimes that could be bad).

I refuse to set myself up for disappointment if my first (even second) choice for anything doesn't come through. I learned contingency planning in the AF; indeed, it is ingrained in you. Plan A doesn't work, go to Plan B. Two feelings you can get rid of: Guilt, as it happened in the past and there isn't one thing you can do about it now--get over it, learn from it, and move on; and worry--it hasn't happened, and the only person you can control is yourself. So don't waste energy on those two mind trips.

As for opportunities, they are what you make of them, and happiness is rarely measured in dollars (I realize that if some 20-somethings read that statement, they probably think I am 2 tacos short of a plate.) Don't get me wrong--I'd love to win the lottery; but then, I have to buy a ticket first. Some people are content with a 3-year-old used car; others want the latest SUV fresh off the assembly line. Some people refuse to eat leftovers, others will eat anything. Whatever floats your boat.

There are some theories that people dismiss too quickly when it comes to opportunities. People seem to think that the opportunities just fall into your lap. You hear:
1. The person got the job because of whom they know. Assuming you acan walk the talk, what's wrong with that? Tell me whom I have to hobnob with, and I will make sure I have pressed clothes when I meet them.
2. The person got the job because they were in the right place at the right time. Great! Tell me where I have to be, and I will get there 10 minutes early. Nothing wrong with that, either.
3. They got the job/promotion because they were lucky. Luck had nothing to do with it, unless you define luck as having the brains to have a plan and then work your plan. They did their homework--studied and got good grades, worked harder and smarter than anyone else, were nice to all their co-workers, even the ones they didn't like, or researched the heck out of something so that both they and their boss looked very good. That wasn't luck--that was a strategic plan that was executed well.

As for retiring to the Keys, one thing you learn when you travel for a living is where you DON'T want to live. Hurricanes and humidity are not on my list of desirables in a retirement location.

Quote from me today:

The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty. ~Winston Churchill

And then you have the glass people (this is my quote):
Some people see the glass as half full.
Some people see the glass as half empty.
Some people see the glass as broken.
And some can't even see the glass.

Bonne nuit!

[retiree]

Seems like the opportunities you would gain would not be worth the cost. That is, unless you are already very wealthy and have enough saved to retire in the Keys now.

I'm pretty sure the OP doesn't care about law school being "worth the cost." I doubt she expects to land a 6 figure biglaw job. At where she is in life, I say she's earned the right to do what she wants. I'm sure she has enough life experience now to do her own cost vs. experience analysis.

You are absolutely right--I don't care. I really like the way you have expressed it: cost vs. experience analysis. (I love doing ROI analysis.) About the only life experience I haven't had is cooking a complete meal. (You laugh--but it is true. You want to talk about something scary...)

I have no desire to work in a traditional (large) law firm, where women should wear heels (haven't done that much at all since I retired, and not having to wear pantyhose every day has to be at the top of the list titled, "Why I like Retirement." And further, I still haven't totally decided to go to law school (the desire is there, but sometimes life gets in the way, too), notwithstanding the fact a school has to accept me. I either get in or I don't. No big deal, and certainly not worth stressing over, as that is worry.

[retiree]

OP- You asked why LSAC doesn't count your grad school GPA, and I don't think anyone answered you. It's because grad school GPAs are typically very inflated; it's rare for someone NOT to make the dean's list.

Thank you--I had no idea. Wonder if that applies to grad schools back 30 years ago. If the undergrad grades are inflated, and the grad school grades are inflated, what in the world are colleges turning out these days? (Never mind, I know the answer to that.)

I really do have to go to sleep now. I have to be up earlier than usual as I am a parliamentarian at an annual meeting tomorrow. I have enjoyed the discourse this evening.

[retiree]

I don't speed either. For every 5 miles over the speed limit, you are risking an early death by 5-6 years

If that were true, I'd have been dead 20 years ago.

As with all odds, some people beat them--but not always. Why do you speed?

[snowpeach06]

It's so sweet that you still want to learn. My grandma does the same thing, but she is only taking undergrad classes. I didn't read this whole thread, but, I assume that you don't want to work in law, and just learn about it, and I think admissions will appreciate that.

I was just talking yesterday, actually, to a woman who was about 50, and starting at my law school. She was a former politician who wanted to support her older husband and make some changes in her area. I really admired that she could step in there, with all of us young kids, and not be intimidated, even though she'll probably be better friends with the professors than us.