JD/MBA is the backdoor way to law school. Forum

[bdubs]

The notion that you can backdoor into law school through b-school is kinda silly for anybody without years of work experience.

How about Yale's SOM >>> Yale Law School?

Just a thought. Yale's BS seems to consider the GMAT more and the length of the applicant's WE less than the top business schools; plus, their acceptance rate is almost 20%.

So, for recent grads, they might offer a better option than Kellog/H/S/W/B.

If you can get into Yale law they should let you into SOM without even filling out an application. The standards for those programs are at opposite ends of the spectrum.

[nphsbuckeye]

If you can get into Yale law they should let you into SOM without even filling out an application. The standards for those programs are at opposite ends of the spectrum.

Yale SOM is still pretty damn hard to get an acceptance letter; you just are happening to be comparing it to the best law school in the country. It's not at the opposite end by any means, unless we kill all schools ranked lower than 11.

[bdubs]

If you can get into Yale law they should let you into SOM without even filling out an application. The standards for those programs are at opposite ends of the spectrum.

Yale SOM is still pretty damn hard to get an acceptance letter; you just are happening to be comparing it to the best law school in the country. It's not at the opposite end by any means, unless we kill all schools ranked lower than 11.

Ok, I exaggerated a bit but it is much much harder to get into a top law program like Yale then it is to get into a top business school like Harvard. Why? Because Yale has classes that are less than 200 people per year and they have their choice of the best and brightest applicants. HBS has class sizes of 900+.

My point is that Yale law is so hard to get into that many of their applicants have outstanding characteristics already (like Rhodes Scholarships, bestselling novels, etc...) which would probably qualify them for SOM.

[nphsbuckeye]

Ok, I exaggerated a bit but it is much much harder to get into a top law program like Yale then it is to get into a top business school like Harvard. Why? Because Yale has classes that are less than 200 people per year and they have their choice of the best and brightest applicants. HBS has class sizes of 900+.

My point is that Yale law is so hard to get into that many of their applicants have outstanding characteristics already (like Rhodes Scholarships, bestselling novels, etc...) which would probably qualify them for SOM.

B-school is more about presentation. If a YLS student puts a concerted effort into a SOM app, that person stands a good chance. But, it's hard to compare HBS and SOM because HBS is at the very, very top while SOM isn't close to that level of prestige.

[Veyron]

Kellogg > NW Law

This. If someone has gotten into Kellogg, NU law is just a teeny tiny cherry on top of a huge sundae.

well that is a huge exaggeration.

I disagree

Kellogg is world renowned, and opens doors at ANY BB bank or consultancy (even though they're primarily known for marketing).

Can you say the same for NU law (assuming you're not top 10%, which is a safe assumption 90% of the time)?

Not trying to knock NU law by any means, it's a great school, but there's a clear winner when you compare the two grad schools. All things equal, the Kellogg grad is in a much better position than the NU law grad.

ITT: Obscene Kellogg Trolling. ANY BB DOOR? 4 serious?

[lsatcrazy]

.

[imchuckbass58]

This thread is very relevant to my interests. 172 LSAT/760 GMAT/3.95 and zero w/e, interested in applying to 3-year JD/MBA during 1L. Does anyone have any real evidence about the overlooking of lack of w/e at these programs? Also, does anyone know how much you lose out in terms of networking/relationship with your class by going from one school to the other? What about 4 year programs?

I don't know if you consider this "real," but anecdotal information based on the fact that I know everyone in the program at Columbia is that only 2 of about 12 came straight out of college. Not sure how much of that is self-selection or admissions standards, but it at least indicates that it's possible to get in with zero WE (whereas if you're trying to do a straight MBA with zero WE, it's actually impossible). You're going to have to convince them that you're mature though, and that you have some valuable, non-academic perspective to bring to the table. Business schools are happy to reject people with perfect numbers if they don't add anything else to the class.

The more serious question you might want to consider is whether it's worthwhile to do a JD/MBA. With the possible exception of management consulting, no conventional post-MBA business employer (companies, banks, investment management) will touch you if you have zero work experience. So if you want to do business, this isn't a great idea. If you want to do law, it makes more sense coming in with zero WE, but there are precious few practice areas where it really makes sense to have an MBA on top (there are some, but for most it's not worth the expense).

As far as networking/interaction - you lose out a bit, but it's not a big deal if you make some effort.

[imchuckbass58]

I disagree

Kellogg is world renowned, and opens doors at ANY BB bank or consultancy (even though they're primarily known for marketing).

Can you say the same for NU law (assuming you're not top 10%, which is a safe assumption 90% of the time)?

Not trying to knock NU law by any means, it's a great school, but there's a clear winner when you compare the two grad schools. All things equal, the Kellogg grad is in a much better position than the NU law grad.

ITT: Obscene Kellogg Trolling. ANY BB DOOR? 4 serious?

Yeah, this is pretty ridiculous and not true if you were to talk to anyone actually in b-school or the business world. Consulting - yeah, probably, but even then there are schools that place better. In finance Kellogg places noticeably worse than almost any other top b-school.

[bdubs]

This thread is very relevant to my interests. 172 LSAT/760 GMAT/3.95 and zero w/e, interested in applying to 3-year JD/MBA during 1L. Does anyone have any real evidence about the overlooking of lack of w/e at these programs? Also, does anyone know how much you lose out in terms of networking/relationship with your class by going from one school to the other? What about 4 year programs?

I've heard that students who do well at HLS in their 1L year get cut some significant slack at HBS, but that is just a rumor since I don't actually know anyone there without significant experience. Not sure about Penn, but I think they are generally skeptical about law school students trying to "backdoor" into Wharton.

Yeah, this is pretty ridiculous and not true if you were to talk to anyone actually in b-school or the business world. Consulting - yeah, probably, but even then there are schools that place better. In finance Kellogg places noticeably worse than almost any other top b-school.

Of the top busines schools Kellogg has the fewest number of grads coming into the program with a finance background. The level of correlation between entering with a finance background and exiting with a position in finance is pretty high, so it's not surprising that Kellogg is weaker in this area than other schools.

I wouldn't discourage someone who was interested in finance (particularly in Chicago) from coming to Kellogg. I think it does decently in recruiting for those positions if you have the right background and skills.

[imchuckbass58]

Of the top busines schools Kellogg has the fewest number of grads coming into the program with a finance background. The level of correlation between entering with a finance background and exiting with a position in finance is pretty high, so it's not surprising that Kellogg is weaker in this area than other schools.

I wouldn't discourage someone who was interested in finance (particularly in Chicago) from coming to Kellogg. I think it does decently in recruiting for those positions if you have the right background and skills.

A couple of points:

(1) The correlation is not as high as many people think. At least at Columbia, a large chunk (probably the majority) of people going into finance are career switchers. Even within people who technically did finance before and after, there's usually a switch such as wealth management to IBD, or equity research to investment management, where you might as well be a career switcher.

That said, agree with you that there's a self-selection process going on here - Kellogg is known as a marketing/consulting school, so the people who choose to go there tend to self-select.

(2) I actually think Kellogg is weaker in finance even accounting for self-selection. First, there's just a lack of critical mass at Kellogg to the point where many finance employers outside of the big banks (e.g., investment management, hedge funds, PE) don't even come on campus. I'm sure they'd look at your resume if you dropped, but it's much harder outside of the normal recruiting process. Alumni affinity is also huge among finance employers, and they tend to like taking big chunks of recruits from the same schools over and over.

I know a lot of the above sounds anecdotal, but I actually saw this secondhand when a friend was debating between Columbia and Kellogg (he worked in IBD and at a hedge fund, wants to go bad into hedge funds after school). He did research on the number of his target employers who came to campus, and it was something ridiculously lopsided like 2x-2.5x. Pretty much everyone in the industry he talked to told him to go to Columbia even though it's probably an all-around not as strong school because it has a strong finance brand and attracts those employers. He deposited at Columbia, but it ended up being a moot point because he got off the waitlist at Wharton.

(3) If you want to be in Chicago and do finance, the very obvious choice is Booth.

[imchuckbass58]

To be clear, Kellogg is not shabby. It's not like you're going to be locked out. But if you have a choice between comparable level schools with strong finance brands (Wharton, Booth, Columbia), you're better off there.

[lsatcrazy]

.

[Veyron]

Not sure about Penn, but I think they are generally skeptical about law school students trying to "backdoor" into Wharton

Quite the opposite actually, they've been trying to encourage people to apply. The school created the 3 year JD/MBA in part to address the problem. My understanding is that work experience is still necessary but for law students you only need 2 years and it doesn't need to be in a traditional finance gig.

[justbubbles]

A big LOL at this thread! I only read the 1st post. No time to read the rest.

Few quick notes:

* NU's JD/MBA program is extremely competitive.
* Without substantial amount of work experience, it is next to impossible to get into NU's JD/MBA (they even ask for W/E for JD candidates).
* The JD/MBA class size is extremely small in size (>25 for 400+ applicants I'm guessing?).
* Scoring a high GMAT score is no walk in the park.

Not to suggest that a 150ish applicant can't get it; many do, hell, even YLS, HLS, Chicago, etc. all accept 150ish candidates, but these are your single digit count superstar candidates with exceptional qualities (ie. excelled in other areas of life with impeccable accomplishments)

Conversely it could also be argued that JD admission is a "backdoor" to a top B-school (eg. NYU's Stern school waives the GMAT in lieu of the LSAT for JD/MBA applicants), but you see where this is going...

No easy way into anything... maybe unless you're a part of the Bush, Kennedy or Saudi Royal family, lol.

[bdubs]

Not sure about Penn, but I think they are generally skeptical about law school students trying to "backdoor" into Wharton

Quite the opposite actually, they've been trying to encourage people to apply. The school created the 3 year JD/MBA in part to address the problem. My understanding is that work experience is still necessary but for law students you only need 2 years and it doesn't need to be in a traditional finance gig.

This guy right here was accepted to Penn law, had 5 years of consulting industry experience, an above median GMAT and GPA (for Wharton), but was shot down by Wharton. I don't know how different the standard is for 1Ls who are applying, but I don't think they are dying to let in qualified candidates to the joint program.

[bdubs]

Of the top busines schools Kellogg has the fewest number of grads coming into the program with a finance background. The level of correlation between entering with a finance background and exiting with a position in finance is pretty high, so it's not surprising that Kellogg is weaker in this area than other schools.

I wouldn't discourage someone who was interested in finance (particularly in Chicago) from coming to Kellogg. I think it does decently in recruiting for those positions if you have the right background and skills.

A couple of points:

(1) The correlation is not as high as many people think. At least at Columbia, a large chunk (probably the majority) of people going into finance are career switchers. Even within people who technically did finance before and after, there's usually a switch such as wealth management to IBD, or equity research to investment management, where you might as well be a career switcher.

That said, agree with you that there's a self-selection process going on here - Kellogg is known as a marketing/consulting school, so the people who choose to go there tend to self-select.

(2) I actually think Kellogg is weaker in finance even accounting for self-selection. First, there's just a lack of critical mass at Kellogg to the point where many finance employers outside of the big banks (e.g., investment management, hedge funds, PE) don't even come on campus. I'm sure they'd look at your resume if you dropped, but it's much harder outside of the normal recruiting process. Alumni affinity is also huge among finance employers, and they tend to like taking big chunks of recruits from the same schools over and over.

I know a lot of the above sounds anecdotal, but I actually saw this secondhand when a friend was debating between Columbia and Kellogg (he worked in IBD and at a hedge fund, wants to go bad into hedge funds after school). He did research on the number of his target employers who came to campus, and it was something ridiculously lopsided like 2x-2.5x. Pretty much everyone in the industry he talked to told him to go to Columbia even though it's probably an all-around not as strong school because it has a strong finance brand and attracts those employers. He deposited at Columbia, but it ended up being a moot point because he got off the waitlist at Wharton.

(3) If you want to be in Chicago and do finance, the very obvious choice is Booth.

I won't pretend to be very knowledgable about this beyond anecdotal evidence. I am not interested in finance recruiting so i've never looked into anything beyond the surface level. However, a lot of NU JD/MBAs do have a finance background and wind up recruiting back into finance.

Here is what i've heard from them:
1) BB ibanking jobs are available and we're not at a significant disadvantage to any other schools in the top tier. (There are enough Kellogg students to make it worthwhile for every big bank to come recruit here)
2) PE, HF, and VC jobs are not found during OCI since the number of associates hired in those firms (I heard most firms hire 1-2 per year, some years they may not be hiring at all) is generally not worth going to OCI at all of the top b-schools, the candidates will all come to them.
3) To get a job in PE, HF, VC you have to have some finance or relevant industry experience, the number of career switchers getting these jobs is miniscule.

[Veyron]

Not sure about Penn, but I think they are generally skeptical about law school students trying to "backdoor" into Wharton

Quite the opposite actually, they've been trying to encourage people to apply. The school created the 3 year JD/MBA in part to address the problem. My understanding is that work experience is still necessary but for law students you only need 2 years and it doesn't need to be in a traditional finance gig.

This guy right here was accepted to Penn law, had 5 years of consulting industry experience, an above median GMAT and GPA (for Wharton), but was shot down by Wharton. I don't know how different the standard is for 1Ls who are applying, but I don't think they are dying to let in qualified candidates to the joint program.

Did you apply to the 4 year or the 3 year? Very different situations from what I understand. 1Ls who apply to the 3 year program enjoy, (somewhat) unofficially, a more lenient path although its obviously still quite competitive.

[Grizz]

Any point in JD/MBA for financial regulation/litigation?

No.

[bdubs]

Not sure about Penn, but I think they are generally skeptical about law school students trying to "backdoor" into Wharton

Quite the opposite actually, they've been trying to encourage people to apply. The school created the 3 year JD/MBA in part to address the problem. My understanding is that work experience is still necessary but for law students you only need 2 years and it doesn't need to be in a traditional finance gig.

This guy right here was accepted to Penn law, had 5 years of consulting industry experience, an above median GMAT and GPA (for Wharton), but was shot down by Wharton. I don't know how different the standard is for 1Ls who are applying, but I don't think they are dying to let in qualified candidates to the joint program.

Did you apply to the 4 year or the 3 year? Very different situations from what I understand. 1Ls who apply to the 3 year program enjoy, (somewhat) unofficially, a more lenient path although its obviously still quite competitive.

Definitely was applying to the 3 year program. Not that my one data point is helpful. I'm sure there are any number of reasons why I got in some places and not others, but I'm just saying it won't be a cakewalk even with the "right" qualifications.

[emkay625]

Has anyone made any backdoor euphamism jokes yet?

[Veyron]

[/quote]Definitely was applying to the 3 year program. Not that my one data point is helpful. I'm sure there are any number of reasons why I got in some places and not others, but I'm just saying it won't be a cakewalk even with the "right" qualifications.[/quote]

Well go figure. I've met people with less impressive qualifications than you in the 3 year program but they all entered as 1Ls, not applicants, so maybe that has something to do with it.

In any event, I don't really understand the point of doing a JD/MBA unless you're going the business route.

[r6_philly]

In any event, I don't really understand the point of doing a JD/MBA unless you're going the business route.

So you can put Wharton School of Law on the resume.

[Veyron]

In any event, I don't really understand the point of doing a JD/MBA unless you're going the business route.

So you can put Wharton School of Law on the resume.

Princeton actually.

[r6_philly]

In any event, I don't really understand the point of doing a JD/MBA unless you're going the business route.

So you can put Wharton School of Law on the resume.

Princeton actually.

I don't know why, but I always forget Princeton. Actually I think of MIT before Princeton. Interesting considering I used to live near there.

[chief325]

this forum hasn't seen any action in years, but does anyone know current stats on kellogg jd/mba admissions? Looking for gmat and gpa gmat and gpa.

-incoming 1L applying to transfer into the jd/mba program.