154, 3.28: Should I apply to.... Forum

[Grizz]

I'm not saying that going "any 'ol law school" is the person's attitude, but rather I am saying that simply because one scores low on their exams does not mean that they are incapable of becoming good assets to the legal profession. If the person truly wants to become a lawyer and is incapable of improving their scores, then it is perfectly alright to not attend a law school that fits the bill for most of the egomaniacs around here.

Of course it doesn't but these TTT schools run a racket that deceives people into thinking they'll be making 100k after graduation, when they actually end up in debt and in 30k/yr document review hell. It's possible to make it from a lower ranked school, but ITE even T-14 is feeling the crunch.

If you're gonna go TTT, at least go to one where you end up with very little debt, ie not Stetson.

[DeSilentio2728]

Also, no, I don't want to just go to law school. By no means do I want to graduate with 100k in debt. This is a huge decision. That being said, Stetson would be great, but I can't be 130k in debt. I'm looking mostly at public schools. Mercer is probably out I shouldn't have put that on the list. It's just that I want to get in somewhere in Georgia/Florida/SC/Hawai'i. So, Mercer was on there because of Georgia but I probably won't go there. Same with Stetson. (Great schools, too expensive).

If I had any advice for you, it would be to apply to part-time programs and then transfer into a full time program after your first year. This way you will be able to go to a better school. Some of those lower ranked schools are complete shit, but some aren't bad.

[william wallace]

apply for food stamps.

Mr. Pirate,

Thank you so much for your post with your criticism that was ever so constructive. It's so great to know there are people out there like you. I'm sure it made you feel warm inside when you saw that someone's numbers were lower than yours.

William, I know you can fight . . . but it's our wits that make us men . . . just one word - mercy . . . he wishes to speak a word . . . FREEDOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"The English are too many"
"We will run and we will live"
"Ay, run and you'll live....at least for a while......Any dying in your beds many years from now, would you be willing to trade ALL the days from this day until that one, for one chance, JUST ONE CHANCE, to come back here to this battlefield, and tell our enemies that they may take our lives, but they'll never take......."

[DeSilentio2728]

Also, no, I don't want to just go to law school. By no means do I want to graduate with 100k in debt. This is a huge decision. That being said, Stetson would be great, but I can't be 130k in debt. I'm looking mostly at public schools. Mercer is probably out I shouldn't have put that on the list. It's just that I want to get in somewhere in Georgia/Florida/SC/Hawai'i. So, Mercer was on there because of Georgia but I probably won't go there. Same with Stetson. (Great schools, too expensive).

If I had any advice for you, it would be to apply to part-time programs and then transfer into a full time program after your first year. This way you will be able to go to a better school. Some of those lower ranked schools are complete shit, but some aren't bad.

I would look at loyola-new orleans pt, Hawaii pt, give smu pt a try, definitely catholic in dc pt, rutgers pt, seton hall pt, case western pt, hofstra ft, definitely florida international both ft and pt (especially since you speak spanish). I do not know much about all of these schools, but I would probably stay away from the rest of the t3, t4's, though I haven't done much research on them, so I do not know for sure.

[DeSilentio2728]

GOOD LUCK WITH YOUR CYCLE!!! DESILENTIO OUT!!

[william wallace]

Thanks!

[icydash]

Unfortunately, while you have very interesting softs and a good personal statement that tells the adcom a little more about you, you also revealed something previously unknown to us: you want to pursue international law.

I would go out and look up what it takes to get into that particular field. It (along with entertainment law) is one of the hardest fields of law to get in to, requires tons of connections, and typically anything short of a JD from Columbia will not do the trick.

New advice: retake the LSAT...this time studying with all the passion you say you have in your PS.

[william wallace]

Some people have already started/ran/sold their own business and are now applying to law school. That's a million times harder than learning a language. Do you think these are low, average, or above average softs compared to those that apply? Just curious. Either way, I will take the LSAT again, especially once everyone rejects me.

And yes, that's why I am revealing this information to you all. Also, I am interested in international law or immigration law. The latter will be easier than international, albeit not easy.

Okay, now this is where I am concerned. You say nothing short of a JD from Columbia. Someone who didn't go to a top 20 international law school would disagree. They would disagree for a few reasons:

1. Obviously, because they don't want to believe that.
2. They have false hope that their school gave them.
3. They think that the only people who say that are the ones who attended an elite school (an truly amazing feat by the way. I wish I was that gifted).
4. Everyone wants what they can't have

Here are some other issues I'd like to address:

1. Does making these connections require that you have or are pursuing a JD at a Columbia or an NYU?
2. Maybe this is a generality designed to give hope when sometimes there isn't any, but here it goes: It's not where you went, it's what you make of it.
3. What about upward mobility after graduation? Why does where you went to school matter so much? Does anyone think where you went to school is too much of an ego thing? If it is, that doesn't matter, just a thought. What matters is: Does it really matter THAT much where you went to school? If yes, then why? Is it solely perception?

Also, a very insightful, though cynical thread can be found at. EVERYONE on this thread should read this if they haven't already.

--LinkRemoved--

[DeSilentio2728]

Some people have already started/ran/sold their own business and are now applying to law school. That's a million times harder than learning a language. Do you think these are low, average, or above average softs compared to those that apply? Just curious. Either way, I will take the LSAT again, especially once everyone rejects me.

And yes, that's why I am revealing this information to you all. Also, I am interested in international law or immigration law. The latter will be easier than international, albeit not easy.

Okay, now this is where I am concerned. You say nothing short of a JD from Columbia. Someone who didn't go to a top 20 international law school would disagree. They would disagree for a few reasons:

1. Obviously, because they don't want to believe that.
2. They have false hope that their school gave them.
3. They think that the only people who say that are the ones who attended an elite school (an truly amazing feat by the way. I wish I was that gifted).
4. Everyone wants what they can't have

Here are some other issues I'd like to address:

1. Does making these connections require that you have or are pursuing a JD at a Columbia or an NYU?
2. Maybe this is a generality designed to give hope when sometimes there isn't any, but here it goes: It's not where you went, it's what you make of it.
3. What about upward mobility after graduation? Why does where you went to school matter so much? Does anyone think where you went to school is too much of an ego thing? If it is, that doesn't matter, just a thought. What matters is: Does it really matter THAT much where you went to school? If yes, then why? Is it solely perception?

Also, a very insightful, though cynical thread can be found at. EVERYONE on this thread should read this if they haven't already.

--LinkRemoved--

The fact that you spent an extended period of time abroad teaching in a language that is not your mother tongue definitely adds to your diversity, and will be effective at the range of schools that you are applying to, however, in comparison to others applying to much higher ranked schools, your softs will not make up for your scores and the fact that you are applying late in the cycle. Your chances of admittance are greatly increased when you apply in November vs at a school's deadline since by virtue of rolling admissions there are naturally fewer spots available in the incoming class.

In the range of schools that you are looking at, I would say that your chances of doing well in international law is very minimal, and thus you should forget about that as an area of concentration. Immigration law,however, could be very prosperous for you. Think of it this way....If you go to a school that is outside of the top 20, your school is most likely going to be a regional school, meaning that it places its graduates into law firms/agencies in the same region that the school is located. This makes sense, as your employment chances will most likely be a result of your schools alumni network and outreach to the community.

If you go to a top school, where the alumni network is influential, i.e. are partners at big firms, etc..., then your chances of getting into a good firm that pays top salaries and practices the field of law you desire (say handles big transnational mergers and acquisitions) is much higher. Thus, the wealthy and elite become more wealthy and elite, whereas those going to lower ranked schools have a more difficult time breaking into these firms.

So most likely, barring your admittance to a top ranked school, you are going to be practicing those first crucial years of your career in the immediate area of the school you went to, and most likely you are going to be practicing in either a small firm (that does not have the prestige to do international law) or a government/non-profit agency. Thus, immigration law, say in Miami, is a likely career path, as you will be dealing with individuals having difficulties in your jurisdiction, rather than transnational corporations who will be giving their business to the firms that are composed almost entirely of lawyers who graduated from top law schools.

So, in the end, YES, it matters greatly where you go to law school!

[william wallace]

Expect the best, prepare for the worst>

Okay, if I'm not accepted anywhere - Take LSAT again and apply early for next cycle.

If only accepted to the state school where I live: Option 1: Hold out, take LSAT again and apply early for the next cycle, both for part-time and full-time.

2. Go ahead and enroll (even though I really want to get out of this place). Make great grades (going to be very hard). Be at least in the upper-half of the class rankings (easier said than done). Then transfer to another school (hopefully Hawai'i). I hear that everyone says they will transfer and they never do. So, I have to be the exception. Also easier said than done.

3. Enroll and stay for the 3 years. Then try to get a job in another market. However, even if I pass the bar in another state, I would have no connections in the new region. My work experience during law school wouldn't help nearly as much in another state, especially with the almost meaningless networking I will have done.

Because I know I don't want to live in my current state, I will definitely prefer options 1 and 2. Option 1 being the most rational. Option 2: Good because I will start somewhere, bad because the odds of transferring are against me. Also bad because I hear the most important relationships are formed during 1L. Option 3: Only if I can move out of state afterward.

Also, for right now, I realize that international law is out of the equation. For that matter, it's probably out of the question forever. I just don't see how I can improve my LSAT score that much. Thanks you two for waking me up about this.

Main Point: I want to get out of this state.

Florida International could be an option. However, there are already a ton of Spanish speaking lawyers there, as well as those who speak Portuguese.

I really wish I could get into a top school. It all starts with retaking the LSAT and seeing what happens. Not getting my hopes up though. I will be happy with a school in a region I want to be in.

[DeSilentio2728]

I think Florida International is a good school for you, and it's cheap. I also think your Spanish is a big plus in that market as English is a second language in Miami.

Also per law school predictor, you are a strong consider for Hawaii part time. In fact, 71% of admits had numbers below yours, so if you really want to go to Hawaii apply Part Time and start making your plans!

[Grizz]

The job prospects for FIU are bad, considering its recently being accredited, small alumni network, and low ranking compared to other FL schools. When UF grads are feeling the economic crunch, I can bet you FIU grads are getting it worse. At least when you come out with a low-paying job (or even unemployed) you won't be in that much debt. Matriculate at your peril.

[william wallace]

See this is why I love this forum. Honesty. I mean, I'm not going to completely cross out FIU but these are things people need to know!

[DeSilentio2728]

See this is why I love this forum. Honesty. I mean, I'm not going to completely cross out FIU but these are things people need to know!

His point is somewhat correct, but he is only regurgitating the descriptions given here http://www.top-law-schools.com/rankings.html.

Have you read these?

[william wallace]

If this is the same list as that on US News then yes, I have read this countless times. I know from the list I have read that Florida, FSU and Miami are all ranked higher than FIU. He did offer something I didn't know - it was only recently accredited and had a small alumni network.

[DeSilentio2728]

If this is the same list as that on US News then yes, I have read this countless times. I know from the list I have read that Florida, FSU and Miami are all ranked higher than FIU. He did offer something I didn't know - it was only recently accredited and had a small alumni network.

Oh no, this is in fact that list. But if you click on each individual school, then it goes to a very informative description of that school. For instance, scroll down to the bottom, click on list of third and fourth tier schools, and then click on FIU, and you will see exactly why he said what he said.

[william wallace]

Okay yeah that is great. Thanks for pointing me to that. It gives you more information. I like how they have what graduates said about the school. I wonder where they got this data from. I wonder if they used the forum itself. It seems that the red law came to a different conclusion than what TLS says. While TLS says job prospects aren't good, it concludes positively. I guess you have to read between the lines somewhat. Also, I must keep in mind that is says it's a good choice for Florida residents who want to live in South Florida. I'm not a Floridian but South Florida is on my short list.

In all, I am definitely going to only read this from now on. Wish I had known about this then I wouldn't have spent the dough on US News. This is better.

[william wallace]

William-

Ok, so I have numbers pretty close to yours, and I applied way early in the cycle so I have a bit of insight for you. What I have found is that numbers are not everything, though at many schools you will want to look not at just being within their 25th percentiles, but at about their medians. The 25th percentile is important if you are a splitter at their school. For instance, if you can get a 75th percentile LSAT and a 25th percentile GPA, you're pretty solid. If you are within both medians, you're pretty solid. Maybe try doing Part Time applications at schools, as most of their numbers are dropped for the PT programs, and you will have a better shot at admittance, then if you really want to switch to FT after the first year. So far I've received a tentative acceptance after some discussion with a top 40 law school on the East Coast, pending my Feb. LSAT scores, which have already come out and were favorable, an acceptance with 1/2 tuition scholarship from a T3 school in a fairly saturated market, and some other pretty solid possiblities. I have, however, received a plethora of rejections from the Top 14 schools, which was to be expected, but like you, I was willing to spend the money just on the possibility. So expect rejections, and if you can afford it, apply wherever you can and make sure you have a story to back it up with compelling statements and addendums.

Hope this helped.

Yes, this definitely helped. Thank you for taking the time to write that out. So you got a top 40 with numbers similar to mine? FT or PT? I am doing a lot of part-time applications.

[icydash]

Honestly, from everything I've heard, it sounds like you just want to get out of your state, and may accidentally make a possibly huge error in your haste.

I would seriously consider your previously posted Option #1. I think retaking the LSAT is the best option for you, and will serve your overall interests in the long run. If you really need to get out of your state, then go work in another state and study for the LSAT in the meantime -- problem solved.

I took the LSAT twice. First time I got a 155 (just one point above you), second time I studied much harder (about two hours a day for a month and a half) and got a 165. As I'm sure you are well aware, the difference between a 155 and a 165 is HUGE, and has opened up tremendous doors. You seem no less intelligent/rational than I am; If I could do it, you can too (or do better).

If your heart is set on international law, or just opening up more doors by going to a school with a larger/broader alumni network, retake the LSAT and put everything you have into it. Study for -months-. Put in the time now, and you'll save a lot of time (and money/stress) later on.

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P.S. William Wallace -- I loved this from that thread you posted:

"Want to fix the industry? Unaccredit the entire third and fourth tiers. And not because of some elitist statement of quality, but because we don't need 200 law schools in this country, even if they were all as good as Yale. Shrink class sizes in the remaining 100 law schools. Law school itself needs to become the barrier to entry, just like medical schools operate now.

Unfortunately, that means that all of the unique snowflakes might not be able to go to law school. It means that I probably would not have been able to go to law school. I started at a T3. Things turned out okay for me, but go talk to my friends who are all unemployed with zero prospects five months after graduation. Most of them admit they would have been better off had they never been admitted to a law school in the first place. Sometimes industry paternalism is a good thing."
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But seriously, for the kind of law you want to practice and your seeming ambition, you should really retake the LSAT and get into a Tier 1 (at least) school.

[william wallace]

Yes, I want to get out of my state. But I also really want to go to law school. Also, even if I don't have the opportunity to practice international law, I would be happy in another area. But I definitely want the best school I can get into. (Not necessarily by ranking, more with geographic location).

Trying to look for schools where the "softs" are weighed more heavily. But I'm also seeing how I can re-take the LSAT. I move back to Argentina in 15 days. Then I have a flight back to the state July 2nd. I could take the LSAT down there. However, it's hard to study there bc life is crazy and it would be hard to focus. Thinking about moving to another state in July or August to establish residency and just work for a year. Finding a job would be very hard though.

Icydash, I may look at your posts to see how you studied. I don't want anyone to get the impression that I just walked into the LSAT and got a 154. I studied, but only for about 4 weeks. However, I wasn't working and could focus. I still think I could improve. My problem is finishing. I have great accuracy. Finishing the LR has always been a challenge. Took the KAPLAN course. More to come

[icydash]

Yes, I want to get out of my state. But I also really want to go to law school. Also, even if I don't have the opportunity to practice international law, I would be happy in another area. But I definitely want the best school I can get into. (Not necessarily by ranking, more with geographic location).

Trying to look for schools where the "softs" are weighed more heavily. But I'm also seeing how I can re-take the LSAT. I move back to Argentina in 15 days. Then I have a flight back to the state July 2nd. I could take the LSAT down there. However, it's hard to study there bc life is crazy and it would be hard to focus. Thinking about moving to another state in July or August to establish residency and just work for a year. Finding a job would be very hard though.

Icydash, I may look at your posts to see how you studied. I don't want anyone to get the impression that I just walked into the LSAT and got a 154. I studied, but only for about 4 weeks. However, I wasn't working and could focus. I still think I could improve. My problem is finishing. I have great accuracy. Finishing the LR has always been a challenge. Took the KAPLAN course. More to come

What worked for me was: I took the Powerscore virtual course, which was really great. I did two hours of LSAT prep a day (I did all the assigned Powerscore homework, and then when I ran out because that all only took me three or four days (doing 2hrs/day), I just kept doing sections out of the supplemental book). I roughly ended up doing two hours a day, seven days a week, for a month and a half. Helped tremendously.

[william wallace]

Did you take a test before you started studying? What was your improvement with 6 weeks, 2 hr-day, 7 days a week? Were you working or in school at the time?

[icydash]

Did you take a test before you started studying? What was your improvement with 6 weeks, 2 hr-day, 7 days a week? Were you working or in school at the time?

I unfortunately didn't take a baseline test coming into it, so it's hard to estimate my improvement that way. However, based on how well I did on the sections in the beginning of my studying versus the end, I would say I roughly had a 10 point improvement.

I was finishing my masters at the time, so I was only taking one class and working on my thesis...so not quite full time school/full time work, but not quite completely focused on the LSAT either.

[william wallace]

Did you take a test before you started studying? What was your improvement with 6 weeks, 2 hr-day, 7 days a week? Were you working or in school at the time?

I unfortunately didn't take a baseline test coming into it, so it's hard to estimate my improvement that way. However, based on how well I did on the sections in the beginning of my studying versus the end, I would say I roughly had a 10 point improvement.

I was finishing my masters at the time, so I was only taking one class and working on my thesis...so not quite full time school/full time work, but not quite completely focused on the LSAT either.

Well I had not thought about going to law school ever. Mostly been studying Spanish in Argentina so haven't read too many dense texts. That's my fault, gotta read more. I hadn't seen an LSAT until January 4th I think. Took Kaplan course. On the diagnostic/baseline I got a 144. And I mean I had never seen the thing. Then with a month of Kaplan I got a 154. I feel that if I took it again and give it 150% more than last time, I may be able to bump it up to a 160-164. I just need to focus on the timing. I have been diagnosed with ADHD-I. If that even exitsts. I personally know I have something to where I lose focus really easily hence the "I" is for inattentive. I wasn't a hyper kid, just lose focus easily.

In high school, I got a 25 on the ACT pretty consistently. The thing was, on the last like 7 bubbles it was complete guesses without even looking at the question, just filling in a bubble. Then I got extended time for my disability and I got a 34. Full scholarships ensued. It's always been time. My accuracy on the ACT must have been pretty good before and when given the extra time, you get the point. Same thing with the LSAT. Great accuracy. Spent too much time on the first questions. NEVER finished ANY section. EVER. Never on any practice test or anything. I got to where I was getting to question 20.

I didn't apply for extra time for the LSAC for two reasons: 1) At some point, I just have to tough it out and manage like everyone else and 2) It's really hard to get. I don't know anyone on the forum who has received the accommodations for ADHD. #2 is the more important reason. If I thought they would grant me this, I would do it. If allowed to bitch slap the LSAT with extended time, I would the probably apply to the same schools (which I chose mostly geographically) and hope for $, as well as hope for acceptances to my current reach schools.

All that I really would like input on this is: How do you guys finish? I mean, really? I can't finish anything. More important: Are there any of you who had problems finishing for a long time and then finally got it down to almost finishing?

I am considering holding out another year. I just want to make it clear that my 154 wasn't like I just walked in there and took it. Even though it was only 4 weeks, it was Kaplan-assisted and I wasn't working or in schools so I studied a lot.

[DeSilentio2728]

Did you take a test before you started studying? What was your improvement with 6 weeks, 2 hr-day, 7 days a week? Were you working or in school at the time?

I unfortunately didn't take a baseline test coming into it, so it's hard to estimate my improvement that way. However, based on how well I did on the sections in the beginning of my studying versus the end, I would say I roughly had a 10 point improvement.

I was finishing my masters at the time, so I was only taking one class and working on my thesis...so not quite full time school/full time work, but not quite completely focused on the LSAT either.

Well I had not thought about going to law school ever. Mostly been studying Spanish in Argentina so haven't read too many dense texts. That's my fault, gotta read more. I hadn't seen an LSAT until January 4th I think. Took Kaplan course. On the diagnostic/baseline I got a 144. And I mean I had never seen the thing. Then with a month of Kaplan I got a 154. I feel that if I took it again and give it 150% more than last time, I may be able to bump it up to a 160-164. I just need to focus on the timing. I have been diagnosed with ADHD-I. If that even exitsts. I personally know I have something to where I lose focus really easily hence the "I" is for inattentive. I wasn't a hyper kid, just lose focus easily.

In high school, I got a 25 on the ACT pretty consistently. The thing was, on the last like 7 bubbles it was complete guesses without even looking at the question, just filling in a bubble. Then I got extended time for my disability and I got a 34. Full scholarships ensued. It's always been time. My accuracy on the ACT must have been pretty good before and when given the extra time, you get the point. Same thing with the LSAT. Great accuracy. Spent too much time on the first questions. NEVER finished ANY section. EVER. Never on any practice test or anything. I got to where I was getting to question 20.

I didn't apply for extra time for the LSAC for two reasons: 1) At some point, I just have to tough it out and manage like everyone else and 2) It's really hard to get. I don't know anyone on the forum who has received the accommodations for ADHD. #2 is the more important reason. If I thought they would grant me this, I would do it. If allowed to bitch slap the LSAT with extended time, I would the probably apply to the same schools (which I chose mostly geographically) and hope for $, as well as hope for acceptances to my current reach schools.

All that I really would like input on this is: How do you guys finish? I mean, really? I can't finish anything. More important: Are there any of you who had problems finishing for a long time and then finally got it down to almost finishing?

I am considering holding out another year. I just want to make it clear that my 154 wasn't like I just walked in there and took it. Even though it was only 4 weeks, it was Kaplan-assisted and I wasn't working or in schools so I studied a lot.

This sounds like the perfect example of a situation where you should have written an addendum explaining your struggles with standardized tests. Perhaps, it would be a good idea to write this addendum and try to add it to the schools that you have already applied to, and to include it in future applications. I am not the person to ask as to how to correctly go about writing one of these, but if you search through these threads, this is a fairly common topic.