Almost 1/3 of Law Students Expect to Graduate with $120K Deb Forum

[Unitas]

No sympathy for your dumbass here. 150K worth of debt is honestly, not that bad. Try being 250k + in debt (med students including college and med school) and making 40-60K through residency and averaging a startign income at 125k.

You can make your payments if you are smart and creative about it and spend the 15 min it takes to do some research......The TLS whining is getting pretty pathetic.

An MD is not nearly as risky - just pass the boards and you are on your way to making good money eventually (no matter what school you graduated from)

Agreed. 250K with a 98% probability of earning 150K+ >> 200K with a 40/60% shot at making 160/60K.

Especially since the top 40% of good med school classes make a lot more than 150K.

This is just stupid IMO... MD's have a lot more expenses than lawyers do, so you can't compare salaries, it's like comparing apples and oranges.

[CE2JD]

I always find it funny how people around here laugh at and trivialize any thread that even begins to bring up the horrible gamble that many law students are making.

Without even doing any type of research you can see how bleak the outlook is for students willing to take on these massive loads of debt for a shot at a job they probably wont like.

50% of the class at every school is gonna be in the "lower half." Even then, at most schools only the top 25-30% have realistic shots at making the kind of money, at least initially, which allows them to have somewhat manageable loan payments. Being conservative, 75% of the students at aba approved law schools may not have a way to pay the debts they incur...how is that funny or trivial?

Uh, the author of the article went to Harvard Law and quit her biglaw job because she didn't really like it. I might have a little more sympathy for somebody who was bamboozled by a tier 4 school, is in six digit debt, and can't find a job; but an HLS grad who quits a high paying legal job because it isn't fulfilling/entertaining enough? no

I have ZERO sympathy for tier 4-attending retards who pay sticker.

[araiza99]

No sympathy for your dumbass here. 150K worth of debt is honestly, not that bad. Try being 250k + in debt (med students including college and med school) and making 40-60K through residency and averaging a startign income at 125k.

You can make your payments if you are smart and creative about it and spend the 15 min it takes to do some research......The TLS whining is getting pretty pathetic.

An MD is not nearly as risky - just pass the boards and you are on your way to making good money eventually (no matter what school you graduated from)

These arguments are kind of useless. You get the indestructible T3/T4 prospectives who think they'll be the exception to the rule and then you have the T6 admits predicting doom and gloom without a Yale JD.

A lot of prospective law students aren't prudent purchasers of legal education. That isn't going to change anytime soon. $120k isn't a bad bet simply because its $120k. Its bad if you're a fucking idiot.

You have never been duped in your life? What is your age?

[flcath]

No sympathy for your dumbass here. 150K worth of debt is honestly, not that bad. Try being 250k + in debt (med students including college and med school) and making 40-60K through residency and averaging a startign income at 125k.

You can make your payments if you are smart and creative about it and spend the 15 min it takes to do some research......The TLS whining is getting pretty pathetic.

An MD is not nearly as risky - just pass the boards and you are on your way to making good money eventually (no matter what school you graduated from)

These arguments are kind of useless. You get the indestructible T3/T4 prospectives who think they'll be the exception to the rule and then you have the T6 admits predicting doom and gloom without a Yale JD.

A lot of prospective law students aren't prudent purchasers of legal education. That isn't going to change anytime soon. $120k isn't a bad bet simply because its $120k. Its bad if you're a fucking idiot.

People here tend to hate/denigrate it, but I'm kind of a fan of the classic "do you want to be a lawyer?" question. Some people are really passionate about the law.

I wouldn't go that far for myself, but I think I'll enjoy law and find it fulfilling, and if that weren't the case I wouldn't be taking a half-scholly at a T25 (which is what I think I'll be doing). It's not a bad investment, but there are certainly better ones out there, if I didn't actually want to be a lawyer

This is just stupid IMO... MD's have a lot more expenses than lawyers do, so you can't compare salaries, it's like comparing apples and oranges.

Physician salaries are quoted after malpractice insurance (which is the primary expense to which you are referring). This is a convention of the profession.

[chicagolaw2013]

No sympathy for your dumbass here. 150K worth of debt is honestly, not that bad. Try being 250k + in debt (med students including college and med school) and making 40-60K through residency and averaging a startign income at 125k.

You can make your payments if you are smart and creative about it and spend the 15 min it takes to do some research......The TLS whining is getting pretty pathetic.

An MD is not nearly as risky - just pass the boards and you are on your way to making good money eventually (no matter what school you graduated from)

These arguments are kind of useless. You get the indestructible T3/T4 prospectives who think they'll be the exception to the rule and then you have the T6 admits predicting doom and gloom without a Yale JD.

A lot of prospective law students aren't prudent purchasers of legal education. That isn't going to change anytime soon. $120k isn't a bad bet simply because its $120k. Its bad if you're a fucking idiot.

The fucking idiots are the people who don't research their options and choose the school that either is a complete reach, where they will be competing with people that are worlds ahead of them numbers-wise, or choose the "easy-in" where they likely won't have job prospects. I think I've shot for the middle, honestly, choosing to apply to schools that suit me well, where I have a good shot at being at least in the top half of my class, where I'm getting at least a little bit of coin, and that still have a great reputation in the area where I'll likely settle for the long term.

[Space_Cowboy]

No sympathy for your dumbass here. 150K worth of debt is honestly, not that bad. Try being 250k + in debt (med students including college and med school) and making 40-60K through residency and averaging a startign income at 125k.

You can make your payments if you are smart and creative about it and spend the 15 min it takes to do some research......The TLS whining is getting pretty pathetic.

An MD is not nearly as risky - just pass the boards and you are on your way to making good money eventually (no matter what school you graduated from)

These arguments are kind of useless. You get the indestructible T3/T4 prospectives who think they'll be the exception to the rule and then you have the T6 admits predicting doom and gloom without a Yale JD.

A lot of prospective law students aren't prudent purchasers of legal education. That isn't going to change anytime soon. $120k isn't a bad bet simply because its $120k. Its bad if you're a fucking idiot.

You have never been duped in your life? What is your age?

Not seeing the connection between you're questions and the post you responded to.

EDIT: Now that you edited your original reply, I see what you took exception to.

[dresden doll]

I always find it funny how people around here laugh at and trivialize any thread that even begins to bring up the horrible gamble that many law students are making.

Without even doing any type of research you can see how bleak the outlook is for students willing to take on these massive loads of debt for a shot at a job they probably wont like.

50% of the class at every school is gonna be in the "lower half." Even then, at most schools only the top 25-30% have realistic shots at making the kind of money, at least initially, which allows them to have somewhat manageable loan payments. Being conservative, 75% of the students at aba approved law schools may not have a way to pay the debts they incur...how is that funny or trivial?

Uh, the author of the article went to Harvard Law and quit her biglaw job because she didn't really like it. I might have a little more sympathy for somebody who was bamboozled by a tier 4 school, is in six digit debt, and can't find a job; but an HLS grad who quits a high paying legal job because it isn't fulfilling/entertaining enough? no

^This.

And, btw, as far as requiring work experience before the person can enter law school: I tried damn hard to get a legal job when I graduated since I'd decided I'd go to LS as far back as my sophomore year. Every single legal job I looked into in the area required either a paralegal certificate or years of paralegal experience, and I looked damn hard.

Meaningful WE isn't exactly easy to come by and chance of obtaining it tends to be far more out of one's control than LSAT/GPA are. Yeah, it'd have been nice if I'd worked in the industry prior to starting my 1L year, but it couldn't happen for me. I'd have been pretty pissed had I been barred from starting LS on that account.

And, btw, I like law school just fine, certainly far better than any of my UG classes.

[araiza99]

The fucking idiots are the people who don't research their options and choose the school that either is a complete reach, where they will be competing with people that are worlds ahead of them numbers-wise, or choose the "easy-in" where they likely won't have job prospects. I think I've shot for the middle, honestly, choosing to apply to schools that suit me well, where I have a good shot at being at least in the top half of my class, where I'm getting at least a little bit of coin, and that still have a great reputation in the area where I'll likely settle for the long term.

Being top half at middle-of-the-road school does not get a good paying law job. Firms make a distinction between being #1 and #2 in a class at a non-top school - it is that ridiculous. This is a good option if graduating with less than $30k debt.

[flcath]

These arguments are kind of useless. You get the indestructible T3/T4 prospectives who think they'll be the exception to the rule and then you have the T6 admits predicting doom and gloom without a Yale JD.

A lot of prospective law students aren't prudent purchasers of legal education. That isn't going to change anytime soon. $120k isn't a bad bet simply because its $120k. Its bad if you're a fucking idiot.

You have never been duped in your life? What is your age?

Not seeing the connection between you're questions and the post you responded to.

He's pointing out the lack of compassion suggested by your response to T3/T4 grads with employment woes and high debt.

I agree, not in the sense that I think you're an asshole--obviously, on a personal level, people should make smart choices--but in the sense that we (Americans) don't make policy-level decisions with this "you did it to yourself/it's your own fault" mindset. I think we should protect people from their own stupid decisions, especially when those decisions are completely untenable under almost any circumstances (e.g., $160K in debt for a Florida Coastal JD).

[chicagolaw2013]

The fucking idiots are the people who don't research their options and choose the school that either is a complete reach, where they will be competing with people that are worlds ahead of them numbers-wise, or choose the "easy-in" where they likely won't have job prospects. I think I've shot for the middle, honestly, choosing to apply to schools that suit me well, where I have a good shot at being at least in the top half of my class, where I'm getting at least a little bit of coin, and that still have a great reputation in the area where I'll likely settle for the long term.

Being top half at middle-of-the-road school does not get a good paying law job. Firms make a distinction between being #1 and #2 in a class at a non-top school - it is that ridiculous. This is a good option if graduating with less than $30k debt.

1)You obviously don't live in Chicago. Kent, DePaul, and Loyola have produced some pretty successful grads.
2)I'm not looking to go biglaw...I want to join a smaller firm. No desire to be someone's bitch.
3)As I said in my original post, I have some connections. No, not Barack Obama or some other outlandish person you would make a comment about hahaha, but if I was truly down and out after LS, and I graduated near the top of my class, I'd be just fine.
4)Again, I'm getting money from each of these schools. Did you actually read my posts?

It's not that hard to network (unless you're THAT anti-social), nor is it hard to read, geez.

[USAIRS]

It also may help some of you to know that market rate for associates in 2003-2004 was 110k to 125k. It was a slightly different cost-benefit analysis back then. Modern associate salaries are pretty exorbitant.

[EijiMiyake]

I want to know how so few graduate with under 120K. Are that many students getting merit aid?

I always assumed it was parents chipping in for at least a portion.

This is surprising to me too.


If 71% graduate with less than 120k debt, than there probably is significant number of students whose parents pay for a pretty decent sized portion of law school (like 50-100k).

[dresden doll]

I agree, not in the sense that I think you're an asshole--obviously, on a personal level, people should make smart choices--but in the sense that we (Americans) don't make policy-level decisions with this "you did it to yourself/it's your own fault" mindset. I think we should protect people from their own stupid decisions, especially when those decisions are completely untenable under almost any circumstances (e.g., $160K in debt for a Florida Coastal JD).

Actually, we kind of do. Granted, I'm not an American but that's one of the reasons I'm fond of the country.

I don't believe in protecting people from their own stupidities if the case is such that valid info was out there and accessible with reasonable ease. To take your Florida Coastal example, info re: how much the school sucks is both out there and only a few Google clicks away. It's up to a would be LS student to get it.

[chicagolaw2013]

I agree, not in the sense that I think you're an asshole--obviously, on a personal level, people should make smart choices--but in the sense that we (Americans) don't make policy-level decisions with this "you did it to yourself/it's your own fault" mindset. I think we should protect people from their own stupid decisions, especially when those decisions are completely untenable under almost any circumstances (e.g., $160K in debt for a Florida Coastal JD).

Actually, we kind of do. Granted, I'm not an American but that's one of the reasons I'm fond of the country.

I don't believe in protecting people from their own stupidities if the case is such that valid info was out there and accessible with reasonable ease. To take your Florida Coastal example, info re: how much the school sucks is both out there and only a few Google clicks away. It's up to a would be LS student to get it.

Maybe they get fooled by Cooley's "rankings" hahahahaha.

[Trifles]

I don't care how much I love the law, I'm not going assume I am still going to be in love with it 9 years from now. It is amazing to me how many people are willing to sign away years of their life by going into that much debt, even at a T14. We used to call that "indentured servitude."

[araiza99]

The fucking idiots are the people who don't research their options and choose the school that either is a complete reach, where they will be competing with people that are worlds ahead of them numbers-wise, or choose the "easy-in" where they likely won't have job prospects. I think I've shot for the middle, honestly, choosing to apply to schools that suit me well, where I have a good shot at being at least in the top half of my class, where I'm getting at least a little bit of coin, and that still have a great reputation in the area where I'll likely settle for the long term.

Being top half at middle-of-the-road school does not get a good paying law job. Firms make a distinction between being #1 and #2 in a class at a non-top school - it is that ridiculous. This is a good option if graduating with less than $30k debt.

1)You obviously don't live in Chicago. Kent, DePaul, and Loyola have produced some pretty successful grads.
2)I'm not looking to go biglaw...I want to join a smaller firm. No desire to be someone's bitch.
3)As I said in my original post, I have some connections. No, not Barack Obama or some other outlandish person you would make a comment about hahaha, but if I was truly down and out after LS, and I graduated near the top of my class, I'd be just fine.
4)Again, I'm getting money from each of these schools. Did you actually read my posts?

It's not that hard to network (unless you're THAT anti-social), nor is it hard to read, geez.

Hiring partners I have talked to said students value networking too much. Firms have their standards. Perhaps a student can network their way into a staff attorney position but not an associate position. And making the leap from staff to associate is not easy. No partnership track = no real money eventually.

btw, in re your #2 - what relationship do you think you will have with clients?

[chicagolaw2013]

Hiring partners I have talked to said students value networking too much. Firms have their standards. Perhaps a student can network their way into a staff attorney position but not an associate position. And making the leap from staff to associate is not easy. No partnership track = no real money eventually.

btw, in re your #2 - what relationship do you think you will have with clients?

Ok, again you didn't read. You keep saying "firms" like I'm applying after LS to biglaw. Absolutely, I don't expect to be first on a list at a biglaw firm, but I DON'T WANT TO BE. In the long run, I plan to be a solo practitioner. Before that, I plan on being in a small "firm", if you even wanna call it that, maybe 5-10 attorneys working together. Networking will get me where I want to be.

My relationship with clients will be one on one in that environment.

How about this? READ/LISTEN, think, THEN speak. Things will go better for you in life if you do that.

[dresden doll]

I don't care how much I love the law, I'm not going assume I am still going to be in love with it 9 years from now. It is amazing to me how many people are willing to sign away years of their life by going into that much debt, even at a T14. We used to call that "indentured servitude."

And how exactly would you know how you'll feel in 9 years from now in either case?

I suppose you're making the argument that a switch, if necessary, is more easily done when a person isn't saddled with debt. That's cool. I suppose it all depends on how well you know yourself, what you want and how likely you are to stick with your choices. I've personally never regretted an academic/professional choice I made - I went into college, for example, knowing exactly what majors I wanted and graduated early as a result. Never looked back, never regretted the decision. I decided I wanted LS five years ago - don't regret it, at least not thus far and highly doubt I'm going to.

Am I concerned that I might not have a job to pay off the debt I'm incurring for attending U of C when I might have gone to WUSTL on a full ride? Yeah. But assuming that I do have a job the way that HLS person did, I highly doubt I'll be shedding tears over the profession I have chosen in 9 years from now.

[flcath]

I agree, not in the sense that I think you're an asshole--obviously, on a personal level, people should make smart choices--but in the sense that we (Americans) don't make policy-level decisions with this "you did it to yourself/it's your own fault" mindset. I think we should protect people from their own stupid decisions, especially when those decisions are completely untenable under almost any circumstances (e.g., $160K in debt for a Florida Coastal JD).

Actually, we kind of do. Granted, I'm not an American but that's one of the reasons I'm fond of the country.

I don't believe in protecting people from their own stupidities if the case is such that valid info was out there and accessible with reasonable ease. To take your Florida Coastal example, info re: how much the school sucks is both out there and only a few Google clicks away. It's up to a would be LS student to get it.

Yeah, poor choice on my part to specify "Americans", as we do it less than most other nations.

But you know what I mean. We don't allow you to use drugs, drive without car insurance, or ride in a car without a seat belt. My point is, if the option is virtually always bad, why not eliminate that option, especially when the existence of places like these hurt the legal profession as a whole.

[Space_Cowboy]

I agree, not in the sense that I think you're an asshole--obviously, on a personal level, people should make smart choices--but in the sense that we (Americans) don't make policy-level decisions with this "you did it to yourself/it's your own fault" mindset. I think we should protect people from their own stupid decisions, especially when those decisions are completely untenable under almost any circumstances (e.g., $160K in debt for a Florida Coastal JD).

Actually, we kind of do. Granted, I'm not an American but that's one of the reasons I'm fond of the country.

I don't believe in protecting people from their own stupidities if the case is such that valid info was out there and accessible with reasonable ease. To take your Florida Coastal example, info re: how much the school sucks is both out there and only a few Google clicks away. It's up to a would be LS student to get it.

I'd be more sympathetic if T3/T4s provided complete and accurate information. They usually just present a rosy picture with incomplete data. Attaching good employment data to loan paperwork, along with projected repayment schedules, should be a prerequisite to a school's eligibility for receiving GradPLUS loans.

[DavidYurman85]

Heads up: make sure you're a wise investor.

[Dick Whitman]

If you make even as low as $20k/year more because of your law degree, over the course of a 40 year career $120k in debt would be worth it. So even people paying sticker for a lower-tier law school may not be making a bad choice, assuming their current education leaves them prospects starting in the $30k range.

If you start talking about top-tier schools, the math gets much, much better.

Perhaps the decisions people are making aren't foolish after all?

[weaselology]

The fucking idiots are the people who don't research their options and choose the school that either is a complete reach, where they will be competing with people that are worlds ahead of them numbers-wise, or choose the "easy-in" where they likely won't have job prospects. I think I've shot for the middle, honestly, choosing to apply to schools that suit me well, where I have a good shot at being at least in the top half of my class, where I'm getting at least a little bit of coin, and that still have a great reputation in the area where I'll likely settle for the long term.

180. Completely with everything you have posted on this thread.

[flcath]

I agree, not in the sense that I think you're an asshole--obviously, on a personal level, people should make smart choices--but in the sense that we (Americans) don't make policy-level decisions with this "you did it to yourself/it's your own fault" mindset. I think we should protect people from their own stupid decisions, especially when those decisions are completely untenable under almost any circumstances (e.g., $160K in debt for a Florida Coastal JD).

Actually, we kind of do. Granted, I'm not an American but that's one of the reasons I'm fond of the country.

I don't believe in protecting people from their own stupidities if the case is such that valid info was out there and accessible with reasonable ease. To take your Florida Coastal example, info re: how much the school sucks is both out there and only a few Google clicks away. It's up to a would be LS student to get it.

I'd be more sympathetic if T3/T4s provided complete and accurate information. They usually just present a rosy picture with incomplete data. Attaching good employment data to loan paperwork, along with projected repayment schedules, should be a prerequisite to a school's eligibility for receiving GradPLUS loans.

No, no. I'm not saying be sympathetic to the schools--I really, seriously think that the ABA should not continue to accredit about 10-15 of these schools--I'm saying be sympathetic (at least in policy formation, if not personal feelings) to the students; and what you cited is a perfect reason to be so. You've also got to consider that many prospective T3/T4 students are not that bright (they're not necessarily idiots, but nor are they even always above-average college students) to begin with, and then are blinded by their (often) extreme desire to go to LS, and jump at the LS-provided employment and salary "data" as all the justification they need to pull the trigger on the decision they desperately wanted to make anyway. T4 schools ruthlessly exploit these students, 15-25% of whom they then expel a year (and $40K in tuition) later.

And debt is complicated: most TLSers are literally MENSA material, and yet it is still the one topic on which people say the most retarded things (e.g., "$160K isn't that bad; I figure it's just like a mortgage, and most people have those").

[dresden doll]

The fucking idiots are the people who don't research their options and choose the school that either is a complete reach, where they will be competing with people that are worlds ahead of them numbers-wise, or choose the "easy-in" where they likely won't have job prospects. I think I've shot for the middle, honestly, choosing to apply to schools that suit me well, where I have a good shot at being at least in the top half of my class, where I'm getting at least a little bit of coin, and that still have a great reputation in the area where I'll likely settle for the long term.

180. Completely with everything you have posted on this thread.

How exactly do you define 'having a good shot at being at least in the top half of my class'? I really hope the answer to this one isn't something along the lines of 'my LSAT was 2-3 points above the median'.